Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill (Second sitting)

Seema Malhotra Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I call shadow Minister Seema Malhotra.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q Thank you very much for coming today. I want to pick up on the argument that the legislation will enhance innovation. In your excellent report, which underpins much of our work, you mention hearing from businesses that were finding it hard to innovate.

Some conversations that we have had have been more explicit about the increased costs of innovation, and the difficulties when there is no interoperability or access, and increased costs being passed on to customers. Is that consistent with your experience, and what are the likely economic benefits to businesses and consumers of this legislation? I will take Professor Fletcher first, and then we will come back to Professor Furman and Professor Marsden.

Professor Fletcher: That was exactly our experience. We heard about the importance of interoperability with systems, and access to data and consumers, and how all those things were not always effective. Some innovation was fostered by big tech and some was less fostered by it, but the point is that they were in control of what happened in a way that we felt was not right for a proper, innovative environment, and certainly not right if you want to see real, disruptive innovation coming through—and I think that is what we do want to see.

We also thought that interoperability, data portability and data access were all pretty intrusive interventions. Therefore—unlike what has been done in the EU, where they have particular rules that require interoperability and require data portability on a fairly widespread basis—we instead thought that that should not be part of the core code of conduct, and that the aim could be achieved via pro-competitive interventions that were evidenced, bespoke and really well targeted. Again, that has been taken through into the Bill’s design, and shows that it is targeted at the barriers to innovation that we identified.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Professor Furman, I would be interested to know whether you think the Bill strikes the right balance. Does it give the CMA too much power? Does it put the right amount of power in the new digital markets regime?

Professor Furman: The short answer is yes, I think it gets it right. It strikes what my colleagues have described—and I agree—as a delicate balance. It depends on who is the head of the DMU and who is the head of the CMA.

In general, my experience with the regulators in the UK is that they are very thoughtful in understanding the importance of markets, competition and taking evidence seriously. The legislation gives them a certain amount of discretion. As my colleagues have testified, that is unavoidable; in a market and an environment where things are changing very rapidly, it would be very difficult to try to write into the legislation every single detail. This sets the standard for what the world should do. Frankly, part of the reason I agreed to do this project is that I would love to see the United States following legislation like this. I hope the UK serves as a model for the world in this regard, and I think it is doing so.

On innovation, I agree with Amelia that what we heard from businesses and reviewed in the academic research is that it is not just a question of how much innovation, but what type of innovation. Are you trying to innovate so you can be acquired by Google or are you trying to become the next Google? There is one thing that motivated us. It is very hard to see the future of this space, but four years ago we thought the next big thing would involve artificial intelligence and machine learning. Unlike the past waves of innovation—where IBM was dominant, and then it became about PCs so it was Microsoft, and then it was about the internet so it became Google, and we saw one wave after the next displacing the previous—we were very worried that because artificial intelligence required large amounts of data, it would not necessarily lend itself to a new upstart competitor, but would instead entrench the power of the existing ones. So far, what we are seeing with OpenAI and the role that Microsoft plays in it, and with what Google is doing in this space, is that it is largely playing out along the lines that we were concerned about. That is partly motivating us looking forward.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Thanks for those responses. Professor Marsden, how much we will need some global leadership to ensure this legislation has the impact it needs to have? Some of these issues and the companies’ operations do not stop at borders. To what extent are there tools in the legislation and more widely for the CMA to operate with sister regulators abroad?

Professor Marsden: Let me take your first point with respect to evidence related to economic benefits. We had a natural experiment before this, called open banking. You will have heard things about this before. No matter what hopes or disappointments people had about open banking, we seemingly had the power at the time to investigate a market that had competitive problems but no anti-trust violations, so there was nothing we could address with anti-trust law. We identified certain competitive structure problems, and there was an expectation on us perhaps to break up the banks, and we hear that with respect to some platforms.

That power is there in the Bill, but with the Furman review and this Bill, which has been kindly carried forward by the excellent civil servants, our emphasis is on the idea of opening up these markets with the same kinds of ex ante obligations on the larger platforms that we imposed on the big banks. Did we break up the banks? No. Did we see massive amounts of switching from one bank to another? No, but we have evidence that British people switch their spouse more frequently than they switch their bank.

What we want is more engagement. We want customers, users and small businesses to be engaged with their platform—with their bank—and that is what we will be seeing. We saw new offers coming in without the extensive capital requirements to bring in a full new entry, but there were new services offers in real intermediation and disintermediation of various products. If anything, open banking allowed consumers and users to—I hate this term—have affairs. It allowed them to check out where they could get the best mortgage, the best loan and those kind of things. That disciplines the incumbents, especially HSBC and Barclays, to provide competitive offers themselves. That is an example, to me at least, about how a pro-competitive, ex ante set of rules on very large platforms with a lot of data can help diversify the economy without harming the platforms. If anything, it puts a little bit of heat under them. I think that was a good achievement, whatever people think politically about it. It was supposed to be a balanced, gradual attempt to try to fix a market that had competitive structure problems, and I believe that is what the Bill does here.

In terms of global leadership, the UK is definitely still leading, despite a bit of a delay. It is the most bespoke, nuanced and balanced bit of legislation that has been proposed so far that I have seen, as we have already discussed this afternoon. At the same time—I completely understand your jurisdictional point—there is a real zeitgeist politically around the world to introduce measures like these of some sort. Of course, they depend on the economic, political and legal backgrounds of the society, but I cannot imagine like-minded authorities and Governments not trying to work hard or co-operate in this space.

We are seeing some examples of that already in the digital space. It is not really an area where there is a competition of competition laws; it is more that this is a regulated solution that we are putting forward in various jurisdictions through a democratic process. It does not depend too much on the discretion of the authority. It depends on the process that the authority undergoes to understand the markets and to then work with the tech platforms to find out which remedies would be available. That participative nature is a very important part of this, rather than an adversarial nature where we just chase after the companies after they have done something that is alleged to be wrong.

[Seema Malhotra]

Professor Fletcher and Professor Furman, do you want to add anything?

Professor Fletcher: A lot of jurisdictions around the world are looking at this space. We talked earlier about how some of what we will achieve through this is stuff that can be achieved through competition law, and almost all jurisdictions have competition law. In a way, the more jurisdictions that have regulation, the easier it becomes for other jurisdictions to achieve some of the same things through competition law, because it changes the costs and benefits for the firms to change their business model.

The firms have quite an interesting decision to make on a global basis anyway about how much they do the same thing globally as they are required to do locally. I think it will vary depending on what thing it is. If it is terms and conditions, they can easily change that on a local basis. If it is interoperability, it is quite hard or rather more hard to design a system so that it has different interoperability standards in different places. We may well see an extraterritorial effect—not a deliberate one—because of the cost considerations and reputational considerations of the firms themselves. That will have a positive benefit in terms of providing a more consistent framework globally for the third parties that we are hoping to innovate. The more consistent global framework they have to compete upon, the better it is for innovation.

Professor Furman: The ideal thing would be if the whole world sat down and agreed how it was going to approach this problem and there was a single global system, or lots of countries co-ordinated and did the same thing. In practice, that is impossible, so what one should aspire towards is having essentially correlated actions in different countries, where different countries have similar rules and are looking at each other and learning from each other.

This puts the UK in a position to be a leader in that global process, and that, frankly, is the way mergers work already. It is not like there is a single global merger authority; there are merger authorities in economies around the world, but they use similar rules, are looking at similar evidence, come up with similar decisions and all, to some degree, talk to each other. That is what this is—an emerging correlation of approach.

We have seen in the United States in both the House of Representatives and the Senate legislation being put forward and in some cases being passed out of Committee that would accomplish some of the different pieces of what this legislation would do, frankly, more comprehensively than anything I have seen in the United States.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Paul Scully)]

Q Thank you for coming before us. You are right: you cannot have a monopoly of monopolies commission. That would be wrong, but if we can have more regulatory certainty across the globe, that is good. There are three areas that I can see the different interests pushing on. There is the appeals system, whether it is judicial review or a full merits review, the final offer mechanism and the countervailing benefits exemption. On appeals, do you think judicial review is sufficient, proportionate and fast enough? That is what we are trying to do here—is it fair and fast to get that remediation? It would be interesting to hear your comments.

Professor Fletcher: I know this is something that Philip cares a great deal about. I will come in first and then let him have a go. We have talked about it being a delicate balance. I discussed the EU regulation, where they have gone very far towards ensuring administrability and enforceability by having the rules set out in the legislation with quantitative thresholds. That is how they have dealt with the need for administrability and enforceability.

We have tried to be more bespoke, as I have said, and more evidence based, but there is a real risk in terms of administrability and enforceability that we end up in the same place as we have been with competition law, whereby the cases get hugely burdensome and hard to bring to a conclusion within a sensible timescale, and there are insufficient agency resources really to do everything that is needed.

I think there is a real risk that if you play around with what might seem like tiny changes to the legislation, that could really threaten the administrability and enforceability of it, and we could lose the benefits of it over competition law and put us in a bad place relative to the EU—whereas at the moment I think we could show ourselves to be better in terms of getting the right balance by being more bespoke and evidence based. The appeals standard goes to that point. I strongly support the JR appeals standard because if we went for a full merit standard, it would be too far and would become inadministrable. I am sure the CMA would find a way to try to administer it, but I do not think it would be the right balance. I feel the same way about the customer benefits exception.

--- Later in debate ---

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Thank you for coming to give evidence. Perhaps I could start with you, Ms Chundur, and then others may wish to come in. Do you think that this Bill will adequately address consumer detriment in digital markets? Are there areas where the legislation could go further?

Noyona Chundur: Thank you for the great question. Perhaps I can start with a little bit of context. We believe that confident consumers will drive competitive markets. There is a lot that the Bill does really well. It is great progress, and I commend the work of colleagues in the Department, as well as partners in the CMA and Tracey from Consumer Scotland for their input in getting us to this point. There are eight areas that could be strengthened or clarified. There is building consumer confidence. There is the potential risk of only the CMA having direct enforcement powers. It is around the supervision of enforceable standards, practice and conduct of businesses. It is the ability to add and remove—

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Slow down!

Noyona Chundur: Sorry, would you like me to step through each one? Would that be easier?

[Seema Malhotra]

You are going through them quite well, but could you go you through them slightly more slowly, because colleagues will want to write them down?

Noyona Chundur: The first thing for us is building consumer confidence as a priority, because prioritising consumer protection to build the foundations that create confidence in competitive markets will benefit both the consumer and the economy. We are looking at this through the prism of the cost of living crisis and through the heightened prism of vulnerability. In the packs that we provided, you can see that vulnerability has certainly increased in the last 12 months. The Consumer Council has dealt with over 33,000 consumers, and they are showing increasingly more complex and multifaceted needs. Income in Northern Ireland has—

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Sorry: your list of eight things was quite useful, so would you be able to go through those—as you were before, but just a bit slower?

Noyona Chundur: Understood. Did I get to adding to or removing from the list of banned practices in the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008?

[Vicky Ford]

I wrote down the first one.

[Seema Malhotra]

Could you start the list again?

Noyona Chundur: Okay. Building consumer confidence is a key priority for us. The second thing is the potential risk of only the CMA having direct enforcement powers. The third is perhaps expanding the Bill in some way to include the supervision of enforceable, standards, practice and conduct. The fourth is adding to or removing from the CPR list of banned practices.

Next is establishing enforceable minimum standards to alternative dispute resolution schemes. We welcome the mandatory accreditation as part of the Bill, but we would like to take it a step further. Then there is a question around better regulation of firms that exploit behavioural bias or nudge techniques for negative effect. Finally, we recommend going further on subscription traps with opt-in clauses after the trial or end-of-contract period.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Thank you—that was very helpful. On subscription traps, you will have evidence for recommending opt-in rather than opt-out. Could you talk us through the impact of the opt-out?

Noyona Chundur: The key thing for us comes from research that the Government have published. I think the Department for Business and Trade estimated that 81% of UK households signed up to at least one subscription last year, and consumers are spending £1.6 billion per year on subscriptions that they do not want. That is a huge amount of money that a lot of consumers do not have in the current cost of living crisis. Our own research highlights the lived experience. In the online detriment research that we carried out, one consumer told us that they signed up for a 30-day trial but it took them six months to get the subscription cancelled. In the light of that, I think that it is appropriate for us to recommend that legislating for opt-in clauses after the initial trial or end-of-contract period is reasonable. I also believe that that may deliver the most immediate and material benefit to consumers in the short term, given the vast quantities involved.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Mr Eisenegger, are there any gaps that you would argue for, and what is your view on fake reviews and whether they are being sufficiently addressed in the legislation?

Peter Eisenegger: Our overall approach here, at the more strategic level, is that the Bill contains lots of good stuff. It is a significant step forward. What we do not want is, as has happened with the Online Safety Bill, for it to hang around forever and not enter law. Our view is that we can talk about improvements in some areas. You mentioned one—the way that fake reviews are handled. To delve into that detail, however, would just prolong the process of getting it into law. We recommend that the Bill gets enacted as soon as possible, that we recognise it as a step forward, and that the CMA and this Committee look at areas of improvement beyond it. There is something that would relate to online reviews in terms of whether the information being provided is accurate, but it is good enough. Let us press on and get it done.

That said, I have not heard a discussion about the role of standards and supporting regulation. We are in the digital world, and an awful lot of regulation is supported by standards. You will find that General Data Protection Regulation is leaning very heavily on work in Europe to adapt and put some final European tweaks on the work that has gone on at the ISO level, and similarly with AI. If you want to be a leading player in this area, particularly an innovative one, from our perspective—we play in international, European and UK standards—you have to be very well aware of, and participating in, all those arenas.

To make an innovation comment—having spent two thirds of my career in product management and innovation, I am now doffing the consumer cap and putting the real-life innovation one on—good innovation practice is to look at what other people are doing and pinch as many legitimate ideas as you can from them. Quite honestly, the fact that the EU has the same sort of intent but a slightly different approach is great. Just keep an eye on its members to see whether there is good stuff. To be fair, I will say the same to them, because I am participating in the AI standardisation at the moment.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q In the interests of time, I will move on to Ms Reilly. What is your view of how this will affect/benefit consumers in Scotland? Are there any other specific issues that we should consider in relation to Scotland?

Tracey Reilly: Broadly speaking, we welcome the Bill. As your previous panellists said, it has lots of good stuff in it. It should provide the CMA with more flexible powers, which can be used in a more responsive and timely way to prevent detriment. On how the Bill will affect individual consumers, we hope that it will lead to consumers experiencing lower levels of detriment and being less subject to unfair, misleading or aggressive trade practices so that if and when such practices occur, they can be stamped out more quickly and easily, and it is easier for consumers to seek redress through ADR systems that are appropriately regulated and standardised.

In terms of how the Bill will affect Scottish interests, in many ways the level of detriment experienced by consumers across the UK is similar. The consumer protection survey is UK-wide and the patterns of detriment for Scottish consumers are generally not hugely different from those experienced in the rest of the UK. That said, there are obviously differences between the two nations in the regulatory enforcement and judicial landscapes, and it is important that we understand and pay attention to them. Equally, I understand that the Department has been engaging with Scottish stakeholders. We welcome that and would obviously like that to continue through the implementation process.

Some markets operate differently in Scotland, either because they are entirely devolved because there are fewer providers and therefore lower levels of competition, or because consumers access services differently, for example, due to geography. It is important that, within the overall UK framework, the system can respond to those regional differences or local issues. We hope that the additional levels of flexibility granted to the CMA under the Bill will allow for a more flexible and targeted response, particularly if any local practices cause detriment. We look forward to liaising with the CMA on that. Noyona may wish to make additional comments, given that she is in Northern Ireland.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q Noyona, you mentioned that you felt that the CMA should not be the only enforcement body that oversees the legislation. Who else do you think has the experience and expertise to perform some of those significant obligations?

Noyona Chundur: There is a heightened risk, Minister, if the new direct enforcement powers sit only with the CMA. Ultimately, the purpose of those powers is to be much more agile, flexible and responsive to consumer detriment in the market. Is there a heightened risk that enforcement will default to the CMA because perhaps it may deliver a solution that is much more agile and responsive and much more in keeping with the pace of detriment in the marketplace compared with a courts-based system? The sector regulators and trading standards could therefore have the same or similar powers. The question is about agility and responsiveness to detriment, which is exploding in the marketplace. We see it increasingly, particularly in digital markets, which evolve so quickly. That is our perspective.

--- Later in debate ---

[Vicky Ford]

Q Can you give an example where you have seen that?

Peter Eisenegger: Yes, I can. It was a consumer-initiated standard on complaints handling. If you want the number, I can blind you with it: it was ISO 10002. It was initiated by the consumer side of ISO. It is clearly written for the big company: it has lots of good practice where you divide all the responsibilities, the analysis of the complaints and things like that. There is an annex for SMEs. I have been through the main part of the document and counted the number of requirements: there are more than 250. For the SMEs, there are eight.

Where you look at the consumer and it is your small local trader, you go, “That’s fine,” because they know you personally—you know where they live, basically, and that changes the whole local relationship. But you do not really see that many standards where the practicalities for the smaller company are reflected. I am quite pleased that the consumer world did a decent job for the SMEs there, because they are very important to us in terms of local service and providing competition to the big guys.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q I want to come back to some areas that we have picked up on in previous evidence sessions. Schedule 18 to the Bill sets out a list of commercial practices that are to be considered unfair, but a number of arguably unfair commercial practices are not included. Examples might be drip pricing or misleading green advertising, which is an increasing consumer concern. Do you consider those omissions to be something that needs more attention during the passage of the Bill so we do not miss this opportunity?

Peter Eisenegger: Do as much as you feel you can make time for, while getting the Bill implemented as quickly as possible. I come back to the key clauses that relate to the appropriateness of the information provided. Is it complete? Is it misleading? As a charity, we have looked at how heat pumps are being advertised at the moment. About 80% of the online information did not provide the right contextual information for your heat pump decision; some did not even mention it at all, and a few hid it away behind several layers of interaction with the website before you found it out. That would fall under the incompleteness clause, but again, you are going to come back. The CMA would be able to apply an interpretation, which would probably go through some sort of intense dialogue with the industry people concerned, but if you do not have time to cover all those other aspects as explicitly as you would wish in the Bill, I think there is a clause that gives the CMA some capability for addressing it.

Noyona Chundur: Maybe I can add to that. This talks to the point in the earlier session on how quickly or whether fake reviews should be automatically added to the list of bad practices, or should we go through full consultation. In all these things, we need to have appropriate consultation and the appropriate due diligence carried out. It needs to be done as quickly and thoroughly as possible so there is no doubt. I am completely supportive of what was said earlier today that there is a lot of detriment as a result of fake reviews, and the sooner that is resolved, the better. None the less, we need to be careful about setting the right precedents. We need to have consistency in procedural application. For all those things—I believe we are all in agreement that drip pricing is of huge concern, as are misleading green claims—we need to follow the right process and get through it as quickly as possible.

[Seema Malhotra]

I think Ms Reilly wants to come in as well.

Tracey Reilly: I simply want to endorse much of what Noyona said. There are issues around fake reviews, drip pricing and greenwashing that we all want to see addressed, and for that to happen as soon as possible. However, there is also a need to ensure that the definitions are right and the provisions are effective. We would hugely support the Secretary of State having the power, which is in the Bill, to amend the schedule by regulation. I realise that is a Henry VIII clause, which is not always popular, but in this case I think it is an acceptable use of that power, and it comes with appropriate safeguards in terms of the affirmative statutory instrument procedure and the requirement to consult first.

Touching briefly on greenwashing in particular, we acknowledge that existing regulators have powers to tackle that and that there are existing programmes of both education and enforcement. However, greenwashing claims are hugely prevalent and there is a lot of work to be done. It is an issue that, for us, has real risks associated with the net zero transition, because we are going to get consumers to make quite different choices around what they eat, what clothes they buy, how they heat their houses and what vehicles they drive. Some of those are quite big-ticket items in terms of cost, so there is a real risk for consumers and a real need for them to be able to trust the information they are given, which links back to the points my colleague Noyona was making about consumer confidence.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q In relation to support for consumer organisations, how do you think the CMA and the Government can better support consumer organisations that are supporting consumers on the frontline?

Tracey Reilly: Just a couple of quick points. There is a need to produce very clear guidance on the new plans and have very clear referral processes to the CMA for the use of those plans, so that advocacy and advice bodies have almost a direct line, if you like, into the points of contact. Essentially, it is about pathways and signposting, and ensuring that the routes from an individual consumer experiencing detriment to those who are able to take action on it are as quick and flexible as possible.

Noyona Chundur: From my perspective, I would ask for two things. The first is greater connectivity across the ecosystem. We all have a lot of data; we all have a lot of intelligence; we all have a lot of on-the-ground insights that should be shared and published in a more connected and co-ordinated way. Ultimately, that is more holistic, but it gives the level of granularity we need on a four nations basis. The other is greater focus on the broader issues of online behavioural bias and the exploitation of behavioural bias—you know, nudge techniques—to negative effect. To my mind, the Bill does not adequately cover that, so I believe this is an area of potential development.

As has been touched on already, vulnerability is not just about personal characteristics or social circumstances; the behaviour of organisations can cause harm and put you in a vulnerable position. That is a key area that we would love to see explored in more detail as the Bill passes through scrutiny.

Peter Eisenegger: In terms of support, having mentioned standards, there is a Government mechanism for providing the consumer arm of BSI with money to support its experts. Keep a careful eye on that, and work with BSI and its consumer arm to ensure that that is suitable for the level of really important issues we need to address.

There is another area of the consumer world, which is about the smaller, really voluntary charities, such as ourselves and the Child Accident Prevention Trust, which have no regular income and live hand to mouth. We have been on the brink of extinction every now and then, and although we have managed to haul ourselves back, it is a very precarious position. When we and others in a similar position contribute to this sort of arena or talk to regulators, our voice is valued and has something to offer, but we are very precarious. If Parliament looks at the people who really represent the grassroots and different perspectives and are without a regular income, and if something can be done, that would be extremely useful. Some of these voices drop out.

[Vicky Ford]

Q I want to come back to schedule 18 and ensure that I absolutely understood what Tracey said. This morning, I think Which? said that they thought fake reviews should now be put in schedule 18. I have had constituents who have suffered from fake reviews for services they have given, and the fake review has been very damaging to their business. We all know about fake reviews on books, which can be very damaging. Are you saying, Tracey, that we need to ensure we get the wording of how it goes into schedule 18 right—have the consultation and get the wording right—but let the Government introduce it through Henry VIII powers later, rather risk delaying the Bill by trying and maybe not getting the exact wording right now?

Tracey Reilly: I think that is a very difficult question. Without remotely passing the buck, I think that ultimately it is a judgment for your Committee to take as to whether it considers there is sufficient clarity in the definitions proposed during the amending stages to allow for those decisions to be made now. If the Committee is confident that there is sufficient clarity, and the soundings you are receiving from stakeholders indicate that they are content, it is a matter for the Committee to decide. Ultimately, our position is that we want to see it as soon as possible, but we also want to see it done correctly, because as we all know it is very difficult to amend primary legislation once that is in place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q I know you are an expert in ex ante regulation. Obviously the way in which people can appeal any intervention by the CMA or the DMU would be only by JR, rather than on the merits method. Is that the right standard?

Professor Myers: Again, I think the Bill strikes quite a good balance with the judicial review approach. To bring in some practical experience from my days at Ofcom, I have had a role as an expert witness in quite a number of appeals of Ofcom decisions, in front of both the Competition Appeal Tribunal and the High Court. At the Competition Appeal Tribunal, those have been under different standards: there used to be a full-merits review, but recently that was changed to a judicial review.

I think what matters, as well as the legal standard of review as laid out in this legislation, is the nature of the appeal body. In this case, it is the Competition Appeal Tribunal. Compared with the High Court, these are specialists—both judges and lay members—with specialist knowledge and experience of dealing with both competition and regulatory cases. They have a greater appetite to get into the detail and merit issues, to the extent that that is compatible with the judicial review standard, than the High Court would. Having appeared in front of the Competition Appeal Tribunal under a judicial review standard, I can say, as I think Professor Fletcher did, that that is not a walk in the park for the regulator. You get a thorough testing, and what the Competition Appeal Tribunal is looking to identify is clear errors of either law or reasoning. I think that that is an appropriate way to strike a balance here.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q I want to pick up on the answers you gave earlier when my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd was talking about the delays in reaching this point and the length of time it will take for the Bill to go through. If there are any further delays, particularly if we reach 2025 before this is operational, what do you see some of the risks being in the meantime?

Professor Myers: You heard some evidence earlier this afternoon about the relationship between jurisdictions in different countries. Clearly, the Digital Markets Act in the European Union is being implemented at the moment and the effects of that will come in. The longer the UK legislation takes, the more that will condition the context within which the CMA will have to operate in implementing this regime. That is probably the most likely thing. There are obviously some other countries that are looking into that, but that is probably the main issue I would point to.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Would you be concerned that by the time it comes in, it will need amending again?

Professor Myers: I do not think that that kind of timeline of 2025 means it is all a waste of time and we should not bother; I think it will still be important. It is not a complete all or nothing. There are some digital services where the platforms will want to standardise globally, but there are others where they will be interested in making national variations. I think the CMA can influence things using its competition powers. An example of that at the moment is the competition case it has had about Google’s Privacy Sandbox and the use of third-party cookies on Chrome. That is a Competition Act case where the commitments that Google has agreed with the CMA are actually influencing how it is operating Chrome globally, so there is still some scope for the UK to have a role even before this Bill comes in. Then when it does, obviously that will increase.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q I am interested, because you have such a depth of experience across these areas, in whether there is anything you feel has not been said in the evidence session that you would like to make as a contribution to the Committee’s deliberations.

Professor Myers: Perhaps one of the few things I did not entirely agree with in the evidence room was when Professor Marsden talked about the participative approach which, again, is obviously not in the legislation, but is envisaged in how the CMA will operate. I do not think what you want out of that is a cosy relationship between the regulator and the SMS firms. You need to have a constructive relationship, but that is going to be adversarial. To expect it not to be adversarial to some extent is probably over-optimistic and, indeed, probably undesirable, but it is also very important for the CMA to build a wider set of relationships with the industry, consumers and smaller stakeholders, who are not so used to dealing with a regulator. It is important for the CMA as a regulator to have a good overview of a cross-section of all the views in the industry and not just be captured by the SMS firms, which they are inevitably talking to an awful lot.

[The Chair]

That brings us to the end of this session. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you, Professor, for taking the time to give evidence.

Professor Myers: Thank you very much.

Examination of Witness

Graham Wynn gave evidence.

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence via Zoom from Graham Wynn, assistant director for consumer competition and regulatory affairs at the British Retail Consortium. Graham, will you introduce yourself for the record?

Graham Wynn: I am Graham Wynn. I am assistant director at the British Retail Consortium, dealing with consumer affairs mainly and a number of other issues for some years now—about 20, I think. Today, I am representing the views of members.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Thank you for joining us to give evidence. Will you outline what you see as the main consumer issues in the retail industry that you would want—hope for—the Bill to address? Do you see any gaps?

Graham Wynn: As far as the Bill is concerned, it is about 50:50. We would like the Committee to examine about 50% of the issues particularly carefully. Generally, we support the Bill—we think it does some useful things—but there are one or two matters of detail. On the other hand, we think that some omissions need to be looked at, whether in the Bill or elsewhere; they are necessary for the Bill to succeed.

We have some concerns about the enforcement landscape as a whole, the resources available to trading standards, and whether the Bill and its focus on the CMA will mean that trading standards go even more into the background. Members tell me they find that enforcement activity by trading standards has declined quite dramatically over the years. The other day, someone said to me, “Online, it is the wild west out there.” Although people try to comply with all the regulations, they find that many businesses—many of their rivals—do not do so, and that no one enforces anything. One of the issues retailers hope will be looked at is whether the whole regime, with the CMA’s new powers, will lead to better enforcement to create a level playing field for consumers and for businesses.

We are concerned about fake reviews. We support the banning of them. We wish that what the Government propose for them was on the face of the Bill. It is also important that people understand exactly what a review or a website should and should not include. They should include both negative and positive reviews, but it is very difficult to define what a fake review is and to ensure that whatever we come up with is enforced. The key theme is enforcement. It is no good giving people protections if they are not enforced.

The other thing is the CMA’s new approach to consumer issues and admin powers. We have a good relationship with the CMA. Members are more—let us say—acquiescent with the proposal to move towards an administrative-based regime. They accept that it has been debated over many years now, and that the Government are determined, so the key thing is to make it work. The real thing is to make sure that there is a good appeals system, independent of the CMA at the end of the day.

Another concern about what is missing from the Bill is the requirement for the CMA to accept primary authority advice. The CMA refuses to do that. When a business has been given primary authority advice—assured advice—that governs what other local authorities and trading standards do in the area, but that is not the CMA approach. We think that with its new powers, it is important for the CMA to accept primary authority advice, or indeed, to devise its own system by which it gives advice to businesses that is assured advice. It will do that in the competition area—on sustainability—but we think it would be very important in the consumer area as well.

There are other issues, of course. The review of the blacklist is another that I would pick out as one we are slightly concerned about. One of the dangers in all politics is a knee-jerk reaction to a political issue, and we think that one such danger is in adding to and subtracting from the blacklist in schedule 18 by statutory instrument, rather than right up front in primary legislation. We argued this in the EU when it first came out with the unfair commercial practices directive. We argued that successfully in relation to much retail and commerce across Europe. The point is that we want to make sure that anything that goes into or comes out of the blacklist is properly debated and analysed and so on, rather than going through virtually on the nod, which is likely even with affirmative resolution. Those are some of the things you might want to bring out, such as unit pricing, and you might want to ask about those.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q I just want to follow up on your point about trading standards and enforcement. Trading standards resources have dropped by 50%, and there is a wild west on our high streets and online, with products coming through porous borders at the moment.

Graham Wynn: Yes.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q In your view, should more powers be given to trading standards as well? I was not quite clear on where you saw a role for the CMA and trading standards together.

Graham Wynn: I think it is important that they co-operate and that there is a clear line of responsibility for each and a clear demarcation. The real problem with trading standards is not so much their powers but their lack of resources. One business with over 2,000 stores —not a supermarket—said the other day that the number of inspections and the number of times they see a trading standards officer has come down dramatically in the last few years. It makes it very difficult for those who are responsible for compliance in the business to persuade those who are responsible for, say, marketing and promotions to keep in line. The lack of trading standards activity makes that more difficult and also leads to a playing field that is not totally level. The problem is resources.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q Mr Wynn, you mentioned schedule 18 and not adding to the list without proper evidence. Is it your position then that we should not at this point in time add fake reviews to that list and that we should go through a proper process of consultation before we decide what to do about that?

Graham Wynn: The view is, as I said, that we do not want to see what I call knee-jerk reactions to Daily Mail items that are politically sensitive or are political problems. The obvious answer is to say, “Let’s add it to schedule 18 as a banned practice.” It really is important that the schedule and what is in it is clear, clearly understood and that we do not add or subtract from it just on the basis of needing to get over a political problem, for example.

You can make sure that you do proper consultation and all that sort of thing, but we can understand why the Government would want to be able to add to it more quickly—obviously, primary legislation takes a while. In Europe, we certainly argued against Governments or the Commission being able to add to it willy-nilly. We were keen to keep it as something that had to be put in the directive originally. On balance, we would rather it was debated fully and that it amended legislation. Alternatively, you could decide to make changes once a year, say, rather than as you go along. That might be an alternative answer to the danger of a knee-jerk reaction.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q On that very point, it is something that we are keen to tackle—and Mr Coyle is right to raise it, as he has done several times today. You have talked about an evidence-based approach to this. You will be aware that we will shortly launch the product safety review, which will tackle some of these issues, including the clarification of online marketplaces’ responsibilities in terms of ensuring the safety of products. Do you think that is the right place to deal with this, rather than the Bill?

Graham Wynn: Yes. I think it needs to be done, but without committing us, we would expect it to be done in the context of a product safety review and how you are going to deal with product safety issues in the future. It needs a thorough examination, including the role of marketplaces, their general obligations and what is practical and proportionate. I would not add that to this Bill now, because it requires more of an assessment and consideration than would be possible.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q An area that we have not covered is much is alternative dispute resolution. Part 4 of the Bill would make accreditation of ADR providers compulsory unless an exception applies. How effective do you think that provision will in protecting consumers, and do you think it is the right approach?

Graham Wynn: ADR is not something that our members are exercised about in the same way as some other people are. Those who are responsible for selling high-value items tend to be members of ADR schemes. Their criticism of the current arrangement has been that they are not convinced that there is a full assessment of the ADR providers, so everything that is necessary to give them the confidence to use the systems. They believe that that perhaps has held back ADR schemes from really taking off in some places.

Those who sell high-value items—kitchens, some white goods and furniture items—generally are members of ADR schemes. Those who sell groceries, as they are generally called these days, including food and non-food, tend to feel that it is not really appropriate for them because of the cost. When dealing with something worth only a few pounds, it is much cheaper and much more sensible to just deal with the consumer and, ideally, give them their money back if there is a problem, rather than take everyone through ADR. It is not necessarily the best approach. However, the accreditation system and making sure that companies abide by what they are supposed to do in ADR is vital to have confidence in general.

[The Chair]

I am afraid that brings us to the end of this witness session. Thank you very much for your evidence.

Examination of Witness

Max von Thun gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you all very much. We will move on to our next session to hear from John Herriman, chief executive, and David MacKenzie, lead officer, from the Chartered Trading Standards Institute. Could you introduce yourselves for the record?

John Herriman: I am John Herriman, chief executive of the Chartered Trading Standards Institute.

David MacKenzie: I am David MacKenzie. My day job is with the Highland Council on trading standards, in the sunny north of Scotland. I also have a role with the CTSI across the UK for free commerce and related issues.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Thank you very much for coming to give evidence to the Committee. I know from your briefings that you have welcomed the Bill, but I wonder if you might be able to talk us through where you see gaps. Specifically, where do you think there should be, for the successful implementation and enforcement of the new regimes, a greater role for trading standards officers, and why?

John Herriman: Obviously, as you have heard, we have been very publicly supportive of the Bill. The key point, which I know others have made, is that in the online marketplace and the landscape, it feels like a bit of a wild west out there—I know that term was used this morning—and there has been a lack of protection for consumers and clarity for businesses. We have also seen that dramatic change in business and consumer behaviours, particularly during the pandemic, which is good for consumers, businesses and the economy. Trading standards absolutely sees that first hand. Trading standards plays a very unique role in this discussion; we are at that interface between the business and the consumer, so the lens through which we look at this is consumer confidence. Essentially, that is what we are really taking a perspective on.

We very much welcome the Bill and the new powers, particularly for the scope of the CMA, which we work with closely. We think it provides clearer legislation and changes to CPRs. We think it will enable quicker and stronger action, and we think it is very supportive of competition and innovation but, as you have alluded to, we do think there are some opportunities in the Bill where it could go further and where it would not impact on competition and innovation, and also where it would be more supportive of consumer confidence. We are happy to talk in more detail about those.

It is probably best to explain that we are both here because I can take that very strategic view and answer questions about that. David is our lead officer for the online marketplaces, so when we get into more of the technical detail he will be able to answer some of those questions. Essentially, in those areas around drip pricing, fake reviews, subscription traps and greenwashing, we think there are opportunities to go further or for some further discussion.

We also think the Bill addresses the national issues around the CMA’s powers, but we do not think it is sufficiently robust in some areas to enable trading standards which, in the context of this conversation, does the place-based and local regulatory enforcement and support for local businesses and enterprise. That national system does not work effectively if you do not have the local system working effectively alongside it, because they are mutually supportive of each other as part of that same system.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Is that a point about greater powers that trading standards officers should also have alongside the CMA’s role, or is it a question of resources?

John Herriman: It is a combination of both. David will be best placed to comment on the powers. Essentially, there are some issues there that we would like to consider, but it is also a factor of capacity. If I just focus on that, David can answer the second part of the question. From a capacity point of view, trading standards over the last 10 years or so—I think the National Audit Office reported back in 2021; it has also just done a very recent report—has been hit by about 50%. Relative to other regulatory services and local governments, regulatory services—according to the latest National Audit Office report—have been hit by about 25% cuts.

Trading standards has been hit exponentially harder than some of those other services. If we do not have enough capacity, we cannot do the enforcement activity. If we cannot do the enforcement activity, we cannot ensure that there is a level playing field for businesses. There is a definite capacity issue there. This Bill will make the legislation more robust, but we also need the capacity alongside that to make that system work effectively, because regulatory systems do not work effectively unless you have the right levels of enforcement capacity. David, do you want to answer the other part of that question?

David MacKenzie: We really welcome the strengthening of civil enforcement in the Bill. It introduces a range of potential punitive sanctions that can be imposed on businesses. That potentially strengthens our position, and we really welcome that.

At the same time, as John says, that is really dependent on our guys up and down the country being able to utilise that through civil enforcement, which is still a relatively newish thing for us. Our officers are very well versed, over many decades, in criminal law investigations and going for prosecutions. The civil law is relatively newer. Along with these new powers, there needs to be a bit of a campaign across the whole UK to ensure that local authorities have the skills and necessary legal backing to take these cases. I have certainly discussed that with the Department and will continue to do so.

Those are the good things in the Bill—giving us more powers and more sanctions. Our disappointment is what is not included: officers’ powers. The way that I like to characterise it is that the existing powers are very good, but are they very good for a world that is changing all the time? They are essentially based on one of our officers being on physical premises, doing the work.

The powers are all really good: powers of entry, of inspection, to test, to get documents, and all that kind of stuff. But we increasingly find that, when it comes to the documents side of things, if somebody still has a filing cabinet with bits of paper in it, that is fine—we can get that and use it as part of our investigation—but, as we would all expect nowadays, even small business do not operate in that way anymore. The information will be in the cloud; it will be somewhere else that is not necessarily accessible from those premises.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q What happens in that situation? Do you just not get access to the data and the files?

David MacKenzie: The current powers do not give us direct access to that—they just don’t. The Bill addresses that to a degree in that, in terms of entry under a warrant, as long as the files are accessible—again, from that physical premises—there is an extra power there. We welcome that. That is good progress. But it is important to realise that the vast majority of our investigations are done not under warrant, but using normal powers of entry, so the vast majority of situations are not covered by the change.

Even when the power is exercised through warrant, and we are able to use the new provision, that is only when the files are accessible from that premises, but we are increasingly finding that the local branch manager just does not have access to that information. I suppose that we are calling for a general power to access that information, in the same way as if it happened to physically be on those premises, and to be able to use it in all cases, including criminal prosecutions.

The other point that goes along with that is about online enforcement and takedown powers. I think it would really surprise the public if we told them that we do not have any formal powers of takedown at all for any online content. The only way we can do that is through ways and means—trying to get platforms to do the right thing and all that kind of stuff. It is long past time that we got a formal takedown power.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Would that be specifically for websites where that may be misleading or scamming consumers?

David MacKenzie: Absolutely, yes. It could be a whole website, an account on a website or just a narrow bit of content. The Bill contains the concept of online interface orders that the CMA can apply to the court for, and we think that that should be applied to other regulators—particularly trading standards, from my point of view, but to other regulators as well. I think that if we are to be taken seriously in—

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Sorry, in the interests of time—we may have to go to a vote shortly—I have just one small question, and then I will hand over to colleagues. You said in your evidence that it is important that more is done, because there is nothing requiring online marketplaces and other collaborative platforms to make buyers aware of who the seller is—whether it is a business or a private seller—and that that has implications for consumer rights. Could you explain a bit more about what you think needs to happen that is not in the Bill?

David MacKenzie: Absolutely. A lot of the stuff in the Bill that replaces the consumer protection regulations is really good, and we really welcome it. There is still some stuff around the definition of “trader” that we think is a little bit of a missed opportunity.

There are two angles. When does a consumer become a trader? How many things do you have to sell in an online marketplace before you become a trader? That is a difficult judgment for us to make and we feel that some work should be done on that. The point you have made is equally important: the status of the seller in an online marketplace. We think there should be a requirement for the online marketplace to declare whether the seller is a consumer or a business because that makes a massive difference to the consumer rights of the buyer and it also makes a difference to what we do.

If someone is a business seller, they have to comply with all consumer law; if they are a private seller, they do not really have to comply with anything, so this is for both consumers and for us. To be fair to other businesses that operate on the site, we think this is a necessary change that is not in the Bill.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Q You make some important points that we seek to deal with in creating a fair and level playing field and protecting consumers at the same time. There is the whole point about whether an online marketplace is a distributor, retailer or whatever else. Do you think those questions are best resolved in this legislation or in the product safety review, which we have committed to do and brings in many other things that you have referenced already?

John Herriman: That was another point that we wanted to make. This is not the only legislation that impacts on the landscape: the product safety review is fundamentally important in this space. The key point there is being clear on where those boundaries are.

We will be contributing to the product safety review. It is fundamentally important that it should come out quickly, so that we can address it and respond to the consultation. We can then look at that in the context of this Bill and others that it might impact on as well. We think that some things would be best placed in the product safety review—anything to do with legislation there—and would not appear here. But it is important that those provisions work hand in hand over a similar period, so that we can make sure that there are not any gaps. Consumers will then be better protected and businesses will have the clarity that they need, which is really important for them.

David MacKenzie: I agree with everything John said, but if we leave all these issues to the product safety review, presumably that would apply only to unsafe products. There is a wider range of situations for which we need these take-down powers when it comes to fair trading—scams and so on.