Trade Union Bill (Third sitting)

Seema Kennedy Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Okay. Very quickly, Mr White.

Steve White: I would probably answer it as no.

[Seema Kennedy (South Ribble) (Con)]

Q 266 On Tuesday, we heard from one of the opposition witnesses, Dave Smith, who made very serious claims about police collusion in blacklisting. He said, among other things, that the police are going to keep a list of picket supervisors and pass it on to big businesses. How would you respond to those very serious allegations?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: I would say that I cannot see us doing that.

[Seema Kennedy]

Q 267 So you would say that what he said was untrue.

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: I cannot see the police service doing that. That is not something I would expect to happen.

Steve White: I do not think we would, and certainly we should not.

[The Chair]

Good. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your evidence, which is much appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us. We are very grateful.

Examination of Witnesses

David Palmer-Jones and Commissioner Ron Dobson gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Blenkinsop]

Q 274 And will you show local MPs that forensic audit?

David Palmer-Jones: In that instance, I do not feel obliged to do so. I will show ACAS.

[Seema Kennedy]

Q 275 Mr Palmer-Jones, in relation to the code of practice on picketing, could you elaborate on how social media is used to intimidate workers at Wilton?

David Palmer-Jones: There is a large social media presence in Wilton, orchestrated by the head of this activity—this protest. They use extensively Facebook in order to call to arms their local protesters, and they use it also to spread particularly damaging comments about not only my staff but other members associated with this particular construction.

[Seema Kennedy]

Q 276 Could you describe some of the effects that has had on the workers?

David Palmer-Jones: Clearly, people feel very intimidated. They have now moved from Wilton to our other sites within the north-east, where we have a number of energy-from-waste plants. They attended yesterday another protest—the 29th protest—so they seem to be changing tactics. They disrupt local people. They stop the traffic. They cause an undue amount of disruption, and it is not nice for people to have to go through picket lines, with people only yesterday saying, “We know where you live. We’re going to visit you.” It is not at all something I can condone. We have to protect my staff. I have come here to protect my staff. It is really important that you understand the normal situation. I am not an employment lawyer at all, as you can hear; I just see the effects on our business and on my feelings about whether I continue to invest in Teesside in the future.

[Chris Stephens]

Q 277 I have some questions for Commissioner Dobson. Could you confirm whether you believe that the evidence collected in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills consultation on intimidation in the fire and rescue services is pretty thin? Could you also confirm that according to the Carr review, the decline in allegations of intimidation between the two disputes you referred to was down to better contingency planning? Given that you have intimated that industrial relations are more positive, would that not demonstrate that the Bill is unnecessary?

Commissioner Dobson: In relation to the evidence submitted to the Carr review, the majority of that is in relation to the London fire brigade during the 2010 local dispute. The evidence there is not thin; it is quite substantial in terms of the intimidation and bullying that some non-striking workers and people who were providing our contingency plan experienced. I would not say the evidence was thin. I do not have any particular basis on which to compare it with other industries, so the evidence is as it is.

My view is that the relationships with the Fire Brigades Union are difficult at times, but they are being managed well and are improving. We are working very hard to improve relationships, and I do not see anything in the Bill that would particularly make relationships between management in the London fire brigade and the Fire Brigades Union worse. There are potentially some safeguards within the Bill that would help both the London fire brigade and the Fire Brigades Union in respect of our relationships.