Budget Resolutions

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Rob Marris

Wednesday 8th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The Chancellor started his Budget speech in an appropriate way by making a confession. He said that the commentators, including himself, his predecessor and many others in this House, had got it wrong when it came to the growth of the UK economy. In fact, he started by saying that the economy had “continued to confound the commentators with robust growth” since the historic vote to leave the European Union and that that growth was predicted to continue over the next number of years.

Several Members have already said that the Chancellor made no mention of Brexit, but many Members still feel that Brexit has been properly mentioned only if it is referred to in negative terms. They do not want to hear the good news that Brexit and the decision to leave the EU has not and will not destroy our economy. The Chancellor pointed out at the start of his statement that the Budget was designed to prepare the United Kingdom for a brighter future and to provide a stable platform for the negotiations. While I do not agree with everything in the Budget, we must accept that the spending on infrastructure development, innovation, research and development, and education, including the changes to technical education, is designed to make our economy more competitive and to enable us to take the opportunities that will be presented when we are free of the EU and therefore able to make trade deals with countries across the world. It is wrong to say that the Budget did not mention, does not cater for, or does not acknowledge the challenges that we will face when we leave the EU.

There are several things in the Budget that I particularly welcome. I will not go into all of them in detail in the short time available to me, but we have raised “Making tax digital” with the Treasury on a number of occasions, and the line in Westminster Hall debates has been much harder than what was announced today. I am glad that the Chancellor accepts that the strategy was going to create huge problems for many small businesses. I trust that the arguments for extending and delaying its introduction for one year will apply in future years because, as has been pointed out, many businesses do not have the necessary facilities or even access to the internet. They rely on accountants and would have found it either impossible or costly to meet the requirement.

I welcome the extra £200 million for innovative broadband initiatives. In rural areas such as my constituency, despite BT’s monopoly and the money that it has received, we still do not have proper broadband coverage. Indeed, innovation is sometimes stifled by BT’s monopoly and its control of the network. I hope that we will see innovation there.

I also welcome the £120 million that will be available to the Northern Ireland Executive. However, the attitude that Sinn Féin has adopted over the past couple of days means that anybody—including the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland—who does not accede to what they want is accused of waffle; their members then walk out. If we do not get the Assembly up and running, will the money be held? I fear that it may be some time before the Executive are in a position to spend that money, so will interest be added to it?

The forecast for growth still heavily depends on consumer spending, which depends on consumer borrowing. By 2021, consumer borrowing will reach 153% of household income, and I have a problem with the Government here. I understand that they have to control public spending and borrowing, but why is it okay for growth to be fuelled by high levels of consumer debt? In fact, consumer debt is twice the level of Government debt as a percentage of GDP. Why is it okay for consumers to continue borrowing to fuel growth, but not for the Government to accept that there may be arguments, in a low-interest-rate regime, for marginal increases in spending on the plenty of good infrastructure projects that could provide a good return for the economy through increased productivity?

[Rob Marris]

As the hon. Gentleman may be aware, according to the Library briefing paper, an OECD working paper in 2012 found that

“when household debt levels rise above trend the likelihood of a recession increases.”

The International Monetary Fund found that recessions preceded by large increases in household debt were “more severe and protracted.” There are real dangers here.

[Sammy Wilson]

There are real dangers. Consumer spending is a huge component of GDP, and of course we need buoyant consumer spending, which is one reason why the constant talking down of the economy is not good for future economic growth. At the same time, we have to recognise that focused public investment in the economy is, first, affordable and, secondly, desirable, yet the Chancellor seems to be resistant to undertaking such investment.

Finance Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Rob Marris

Tuesday 28th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

While there may have been a drop from 11.7% of total receipts to 8.3%, will the hon. Gentleman accept that other new forms of taxation, such as climate change levies and other climate taxes, have been imposed on businesses and have increased total tax revenues? The cake is bigger, so the slice of corporation tax is smaller, but the total amount is larger.

[Rob Marris]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right about the climate change levy. Changes in this Finance Bill effectively make the climate change levy just another tax, because it will no longer be used by the Government as a lever to change behaviour, which is why Labour dislikes the proposal. Business tax has probably gone up a bit overall, but what has happened in the economy, which the Minister described as fundamentally strong, is that employment is up by almost 2.5 million, and we salute that as a considerable achievement.

However, it has been bought on a sea of debt, on the drip, on the never-never. The national debt has gone up 60% in six years. We still have a huge annual deficit. Pay has stagnated for six years, and public sector pay will remain stagnant for another two or three years. Overall capital investment is markedly down. We have the biggest trade deficit in our history. Productivity is completely stalled. It is welcome that 2 million more people have jobs, which is good and the best route out of poverty, but almost every other economic indicator is poor and the Government propose to cut corporation tax.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

I want to show our support for clause 42. In fact, I think it would be a bit strange for someone from Northern Ireland to take a different stance, especially given the fact that the Northern Ireland Government have put the reduction and devolution of corporation tax at the centre of their policy for attracting investment into Northern Ireland over the next 10 to 15 years.

There are two things. First, we must ask ourselves whether we believe that a reduction in taxation on businesses acts as an incentive. As I listened to the Opposition spokesman’s opposition to this measure, it raised a query in my mind: is the reduction of other business taxes regarded as acceptable and indeed desirable by the Labour party as a means of incentivising and helping small business? For the Opposition, it seems as though the reduction in business rates, which are a form of taxation, is desirable because it helps small businesses, but that the reduction of corporation tax seems to have no effect, or the opposite effect. If we are going to have some consistency, we must ask ourselves whether the principle of reducing taxes on businesses and their profits, and the impact that that has on the amount of money they retain for investment, is an effective means of stimulating business. If it is true of one form of tax, it is true of another. That is one of the reasons why I believe that the reduction in corporation tax is an important decision.

Secondly, during my former role as a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and as a Minister there, one of the things that came up consistently when we spoke to investors was corporation tax. We had an especially big problem, because we were living next door to a country—we have a land border with it—that had emphasised the reduction in corporation tax. Time and again, though not exclusively—there is no point in over-egging this pudding—investors mentioned the level of corporation tax: 12.5% in the Irish Republic and 22% then in Northern Ireland. When companies looked at the headline level of taxation, they viewed the Irish Republic as a much more desirable place to invest. Of course they looked at other things—the skills base, the availability of office and factory space, the infrastructure and so on—but corporation tax was an important factor.

[Rob Marris]

May I caution the hon. Gentleman? For some of those companies—not all of them—this is a classic sob story. Corporation tax in America is roughly twice the rate that it is here. People still invest in companies in America. Corporation tax is part of an overall picture, as he says. Yes, companies should pay tax. If we followed the logic of some of the things that he has said this afternoon, we would not tax companies. That may be his position; it is not the position of Labour party.

[Sammy Wilson]

It is not the position of the Democratic Unionist party either, because there are other ways in which companies can be held responsible for their infrastructure requirements. For example, one of the forms of taxation that the Government have introduced recently is the apprenticeship levy, where companies will be held responsible. They need trained workers, and they have to make a contribution from their profits to train those workers. There are ways to target the contribution that we require companies to make. I am not saying that companies should not pay for the infrastructure from which they benefit, but we must address one of the issues that they raise when they are considering whether we are a competitive place to invest.

Small Businesses: Tax Reporting

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Rob Marris

Monday 25th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)]

Go on.

[Sammy Wilson]

I am sure that the shadow Minister will make that point very effectively. We already know that there is a problem with communications other than those involving computers, so that is an important consideration when introducing a system in which people have to make contact four times a year.

Finance Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Rob Marris

Monday 26th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

I accept the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but will he explain why he believes that we are more likely to have a successful review of inheritance tax when we move into a surplus, when the pressure on public finance is less, than when we are in deficit? Does he not think that the best time for a review of inheritance tax—that is, the giving up of tax revenue—is when we have a deficit problem?

[Rob Marris]

No; I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. We want to achieve economic stability—something that has been sadly lacking over the past seven years and that will probably continue to elude us for the rest of this Parliament—at which point we can pause for breath. This is part of the Labour Opposition’s overall approach: we believe that our Government finances need something called zero-based budgeting. This will be a major undertaking, in which we start by looking at what society needs rather than looking at what it has been spending its money on and simply topping that up, salami-slicing it away or whatever. We need to step back from that, but we can do so only at a time when we have a budget surplus and are not running a current—I stress the word “current”—deficit. That is the right time to look at this question.

I want briefly to talk about new clause 1, which has been tabled by Scottish National party Members, and to which I imagine they will speak later. It seems slightly odd that they wish to evade the consequences of devolution. As I understand it, a decision was taken in Scotland to amalgamate eight police forces and, I think, a similar number of fire and rescue services to create a single police force and a single fire and rescue service. My understanding is that, because they were new organisations, they became liable to VAT, which their predecessor organisations had not been. I quite understand the sentiment behind new clause 1, but it seems a little strange that, having used the powers of devolution which were quite properly passed by this House, the people of Scotland—refracted through their Parliament—should wish to change the rules on VAT. That said, we are heading towards a position of full fiscal devolution—[Hon. Members: “Are we?”] Well, I am not saying that we have got there yet, but we are heading towards it. That is the trajectory, and we would therefore not oppose new clause 1.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Gentleman not see the contradiction in saying that the Government should be looking for ways to encourage high-intensity energy users to use more renewables, which are three times more expensive than producing electricity from gas, while lamenting the decline in energy-intensive industries in the UK?

[Rob Marris]

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The difficulty is that we have high energy prices because we have not invested in new technology to bring them down. For example, if we had cracked the holy grail of carbon capture and storage on a commercial basis—it is already cracked on a scientific basis—this country would be quids in, because of all the coal we have.