Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Nick Hurd

Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Wednesday 30th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Nick Hurd)]

In speaking to clause 1 stand part, I will also try to address very briefly the issue of housing associations, which I did not have time to do in my closing speech on Second Reading.

Clause 1 authorises the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland the sum of just over £5.3 billion. The allocation levels for each Northern Ireland Department and the other bodies in receipt of these funds are set out in schedule 1, which also states the purpose for which the funds are to be used. The authorisations and appropriations in this clause are a balance to complete in addition to the vote on account previously authorised in section 4 and in column 2 of schedule 3 of the Northern Ireland Budget (Anticipation and Adjustments) Act 2019.

I will now address the issue of housing associations out of respect to previous comments made. The Government, to be very clear, recognise the absolute importance of housing associations as the main mechanism for delivery of social and affordable homes. We agree 100% that classification as public sector has serious implications for their funding stream, for the reasons cited in the debate. We completely agree, therefore, that action must be taken, and the Government are committed to taking forward legislation to facilitate reclassification as soon as parliamentary time allows. I hope that the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) will realise that standing here today on the brink of an election I do not feel I can give a guarantee of a specific time, but I can say that this will be a priority for this Government, if re-elected, and that officials are continuing to work closely with officials in Northern Ireland to facilitate it.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Perhaps the Minister could give us some clarity. In the past, we have been told that the reason why the legislation could not come forward is that it had not been properly prepared by either the Department for Communities or the Department of Finance in Northern Ireland. Then we were told that it had to come through the Northern Ireland Office. Has the legislation been prepared by the appropriate Department in Northern Ireland? Has it been approved to come forward to the Treasury here in Westminster? If it has reached that stage, when did it reach that stage? If it has not, what are the impediments?

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[Mr Hurd]

I thank the shadow Secretary of State for his question. He asked about that on Second Reading, and I apologise for not having the time to respond directly. On his broader question, I can confirm that this budget is putting on a sound legal basis the draft budget debated earlier for this financial year. The short answer to his question is that it does not include provisions for the implementation of the Stormont House agreement institutions, and it does not include consideration of the consequences of implementing the Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill. I wholly agree, as I know the Secretary of State would, that that Bill must be a priority for Governments of any colour. The hon. Gentleman asked for some creativity or flexibility in terms of a down payment. I am not authorised to put something definitive on the record, but I know that the Secretary of State and the team have heard that and will look to discuss it with the Northern Ireland civil service. I do not have a black and white answer to that question, but it is certainly noted.

I want to acknowledge the point made about the Police Service of Northern Ireland. The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley is right: the PSNI is a success story, and we cannot afford for it to go backwards. As a former Minister for police in England and Wales and a former Minister for the fire service, I found myself largely in agreement with the sentiments he expressed about the need to ensure that the police service has the resources it needs and about the challenges of the recruitment process in the modern age.

[Sammy Wilson]

I want to come back to the point about housing association classification, because the Minister was not clear in his answer. The legislation has been prepared—I got that bit—but is it still being held by the Northern Ireland Office and therefore not transferred to the relevant Department that has to take it through here at Westminster, or has it been transferred to the relevant Department at Westminster and there simply has not been parliamentary time? That is important.

[Mr Hurd]

With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, if I was not clear enough before, I am not going to get any clearer now. The language in the document in front of me tells me that this is an extremely co-operative process. I do not think that the legislation is stuck in the NIO or the NICS, which is his concern. Everything here tells me that officials are working closely with the Department for Communities, the NIO and the Cabinet Office to make further progress towards introduction. I will go away and take further advice on that, but there is nothing here that tells me there is a hard impediment; it is just that I cannot, with any good faith, stand here and give a firm timetable under the circumstances we are in.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 6

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Nick Hurd

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Nick Hurd)]

I beg to move,

That this House takes note of and approves the Report pursuant to Section 3(13) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019—Victims’ Payments, which was laid before this House on Wednesday 4 September.

We do not seem to agree on much in Parliament these days but, on the subject of this specific debate, I hope and believe that there is enough common ground to move forward on what we should see as a moral imperative to turn words into action, and to turn the idea of a victims payment or pension into a reality that does something powerful in acknowledging the unacceptable harm done to those seriously injured in the troubles and the deep trauma that many still live with, and makes a meaningful difference to the dignity and quality of life of those severely injured through no fault of their own.

Those last six words are important, because it is clear to me from the debate in both Houses of Parliament that consensus in this Parliament exists only if the guiding principle of our work is that this payment is not designed as a pension for terrorists and those injured by their own actions.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The important words, as the Minister says, are, “Those who have been injured through no fault of their own.” I have noticed a discrepancy between the explanatory notes to the Bill and the report that has been presented. The explanatory notes state that that compensation will be paid where injury sustained is through no fault of the individual and whether or not the individual has been convicted of an offence. When it comes to the report, the only exclusion is where the individual has not been convicted of an offence. That is important because with some it is their own fault but they have never been convicted. Can he give us an assurance that anyone who has been engaged in terrorist activity, whether they have been convicted or not, will still be regarded, in any injury, whether mental or physical, as being at fault?

[Mr Hurd]

I understand the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making. I can assure him that, as we work towards the regulations and consult on their detail, the guiding principle—fundamental to the Government, and which we believe is the basis of consensus on which to proceed—is that we see this as a pension that is not designed for terrorists or those injured at their own hand. We will have to work through the detail of how it works and the burden of proof in those situations, but I am clear—as I am sure he is, because I have heard him speak passionately on this subject before—that I do not believe there is consensus in this place to move forward without that guiding principle. I do not think that this Parliament, under any Government, would seriously propose making payments to terrorists or those injured by their own actions. That principle needs to guide us as we get into the detail.

We are clear that what we are considering is a payment in recognition of the suffering of those severely injured through no fault of their own. The victims’ pension is the right thing to do, and I genuinely congratulate those, such as the WAVE Trauma Centre, who have made the case with such tenacity and resilience over the years. Like many Ministers and shadow Ministers before me—Conservative and Labour—I have listened to and been deeply moved by the stories of those whose lives have been profoundly affected by the terrorist atrocities of the troubles. When we read the stories of people such as Paul Gallagher, Jennifer McNern or Peter Heathwood, it is frankly impossible not to be moved by their courage and resilience. The reality is that there has been widespread criticism of compensation schemes in the past. Many of those who would benefit from the payments feel that they were not treated well or supported in the right way, and it is surely time that we do more to support those individuals.

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[Sammy Wilson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hurd]

I give way to the right hon. Gentleman.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the Minister accept that this is not a question of whether he, the Secretary of State or indeed Members of this House have confidence in the Victims Commissioner? The commissioner, as my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) pointed out, is there to represent victims. If she does not have the confidence of victims, how can she possibly fulfil her role?

[Mr Hurd]

I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point, and it is possible that the hon. Member for Belfast South intended to make a similar one, but I was pressed to clarify the Department’s position, which I have done. Let me be candid: in my meetings with victims groups, I have been struck by the strength of the expressions of precisely that lack of trust and confidence. When I meet the commissioner, I will press her to respond to those concerns, because if I were in that position and people were expressing those views, I would be worried. It is incumbent on her to respond appropriately.