Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Laurence Robertson

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

The cost of that is fettered access to trade with GB, our biggest trading partner. When I look at the balance, the choice I would make, as a representative of Northern Ireland’s consumers and businesses, is to have unfettered access to, and supply of goods from, GB. I would rather have that than have to pay the cost of fettered trade with GB simply to have unfettered access to the Irish Republic, when we know that there are other ways around the issue of trading with the Irish Republic.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Member recognise that of all the goods coming from other countries into the EU, an average of only about 1.3% are physically checked? How could it be right for there to be checks on a greater proportion of the goods moving within the United Kingdom? That cannot be right.

[Sammy Wilson]

The hon. Member is right, and that illustrates just how much trade with GB is fettered in order to get unfettered access for a small amount of produce in the Irish Republic. Nearly 50% of the border checks for the EU were done for goods coming through Northern Ireland, even though we account for 0.4% of trade with the EU. That is the price being paid. Leaving aside the political and constitutional issues, there are huge economic issues from that unfairness.

The Secretary of State cannot and should not be surprised or disappointed that, as a Unionist party, we refuse to take our part in an Executive who would require by law—the courts have ruled on this—that our Ministers administer and impose that kind of arrangement on the people of Northern Ireland. That is not to mention the unknown future: there is a whole raft of EU law that we cannot even see—it is over the horizon at moment—that will cause us to diverge further from GB. That will make us a colony of Brussels—that is how it has been described—and will damage our economic, political and constitutional relationships with the UK. The Secretary of State cannot expect that of us.

That brings me to the point that I want to make: how do we get out of this situation? As my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley has mentioned, we welcome any changes that have been made. We have not seen the detail of them—nobody has—so it is really hard to assess exactly the extent of the changes on trade, checks, VAT and state aid, and what exactly they mean. Until we see them in writing, we are certainly not going to take the word of those who brief us. Even if their intentions are honest, everyone will have their own interpretation of those things. We need to see the changes to measure them.

A central question needs to be addressed; if it is not, there cannot and will not be a positive response from my party. What do we do about the 300 areas of law—not 300 laws, but 300 areas of law—to which Northern Ireland is currently subject that are being determined in Brussels? Do they come back to the devolved Assembly? There are three parties represented in the Chamber today, and some of them have already said that we should go with the deal, even though they have not seen it. We have not turned the deal down because we have not seen it in its entirety; we have simply given guidelines on what we expect to see in it.

I say this to all the parties here who send representatives to the Northern Ireland Assembly: what kind of public representative wants to be, and would support being, part of an Assembly that has no say over a whole raft of the laws that impact on businesses and consumers in their constituency? What kind of representative would accept sitting and working in an Assembly, and perhaps acting as Minister, if it meant implementing laws that they did not initiate and cannot amend, but have to implement, even if those are detrimental to their constituents? That is the democratic deficit, and it affects not just Unionists, but every party and every public representative that sits in the Assembly. That issue has to be addressed.

The only way to address the issue is to ensure that when laws are made for Northern Ireland, they are made either in this place, if they are on retained issues, or in Stormont, if they are on devolved issues. That is the ultimate test. Once that happens, we will not need to worry about trade barriers and everything else, because we will have a seamless market within the United Kingdom. I hope we get that outcome, because I support devolution. In fact, I was a member of the Executive at a time when they worked at their best; I am not taking any credit for that. I can think of legislation that I took through the Assembly that has been copied in other legislatures across the United Kingdom. The Executive were innovative, and able to respond to local issues. I can see the value of devolution, but it can work only if it is based on the principle of consent from both sides of the community—especially in a divided society such as Northern Ireland.

I take issue with the shadow Secretary of State’s questioning whether there is any need for the protocol Bill. I believe that in these negotiations, the EU has to understand that there is an alternative. Not to proceed with the protocol Bill would be wrong, because there must be a fall-back position if the negotiations do not succeed.

It seems that all the wrong choices have been made. For a couple of years now, the EU has wanted access to important commercial data, and before we have even made an agreement with the EU, we have surrendered and said that we will make that data available. The EU has been complaining about there being no physical border posts, and what have we done ahead of reaching any agreement? We have agreed that, since Stormont will not do it, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will take responsibility for building those border posts, which are quite extensive. When I look at the size of the post in my constituency, I wonder whether everything will go through the green lane, because we have a massive 10-acre site, which DEFRA intends to develop with a huge building that would do Dover proud, for dealing with east-west trade. Those kinds of signal do not help us to reach a solution and agreement with the EU.

We wish the Government well. We think that their approach to these negotiations, as I have tried to illustrate, will not make it easy for them to get the concessions required from the EU. They have an alternative, whether that is the dual regulation alternative in the Northern Ireland protocol, or the mutual enforcement proposals that my party has put forward. The one thing I would say is that this requires radical change, not tinkering. What we have seen so far appears to be tinkering.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointments and Regional Rates) Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Laurence Robertson

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 24th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

I join the Secretary of State in his condemnation of the actions taken yesterday, which were another attempt to kill innocent men, women and children. That is totally unacceptable in any part of the world. For it to continue in the United Kingdom is abhorrent to all right-thinking people. I congratulate the Secretary of State on the work he has done over the past few weeks, which to him probably seems like months. He has done his utmost to bring the parties in Northern Ireland together to get the institutions up and running again. I thank him for keeping in touch with me, as Chairman of the Select Committee. That has been very useful, so I thank him. I wish him well in his future discussions.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) for his performance over many, many years in this House. He has worked here for many years and I was very sorry to hear that he will not be seeking re-election to Parliament. He was a long-standing, very active and extremely good member of the Select Committee for many years before he took up his present position. I can confirm that he is a tough negotiator, but he is a fair man and it was a great pleasure to work with him. I wish him well for the future.

It is unfortunate that we have to be here yet again to discuss these matters and it is unfortunate that the rates have to be set from this place. It is not entirely democratic and it is not in any way satisfactory that, following an election with a high turnout of voters, we end up taking decisions here in this place that should rightly be taken in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, it is worse than that, because that is just a microcosm of a bigger situation. I know that many individuals and businesses in Northern Ireland see the breaking down of the institutions as a distraction from what they want to do. Only last week, I had a meeting with representatives of a business that wants to expand and bring potentially hundreds of jobs to Northern Ireland. They do not know where they are. They do not know what the position is. They do not know how the planning process will work, because it is a large application. They really do regret the present situation. It is not one in which any of us want to find ourselves, but here we are again.

I am glad that the Secretary of State outlined the options. He did not actually use the words “direct rule”, but that is obviously what we will be sliding towards if no agreement can be secured and we cannot get the institutions up and running in Northern Ireland. I do not want that to happen. What I do want to happen is, for instance, the addressing of the concerns that that company raised with me last week. I want the company to be able to create those jobs in Northern Ireland without the distraction of election upon election upon election, and the making of decisions in a piecemeal way. That is not what people of that kind want.

I was in Northern Ireland a couple of weeks ago on a social visit, speaking to friends there. They are Catholics, which is an important factor because of what I am about to say. They said to me, “For goodness’ sake, Laurence, get on with it and bring back direct rule, because that is only way we will see any decisions made.” They do not particularly want direct rule—most people probably do not want it—but if it comes to a choice between chaos and direct rule, people will go for direct rule. They will have to.

It is unfortunate that we have reached such a position, but let me say to those who are likely to bring about that situation—and they are not, I believe, those who are in the Chamber today, but those who refuse to take their seats in the Chamber—that it would be rather paradoxical and strange that the one party that says that it does not want rule from this place should be the party that will bring it about. How odd will that be?

If those people are listening, let me inform them of what direct rule really means. I was a shadow Minister when we had direct rule in previous Parliaments, and it does not mean that everything is decided in the Chamber. It does not work like that. There are Committees upstairs with 20 or so members—hand-picked by the Whips: let us be honest about that. Very few of those members would be from Northern Ireland, because of the mathematics involved. Important matters are decided in those Committees. That is the reality of direct rule. I would ask those who are getting in the way of the institutions’ being set up again, “Is that how you want Northern Ireland to be governed?”

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that members of Sinn Féin have form on this issue, and that—this may have some resonance in the current circumstances—when they want to dodge hard decisions, they are quite happy, despite their “Brits out” rhetoric, to hand powers back to Westminster so that it can make those hard decisions, as they did in the case of welfare reform about a year and a half ago?

[Mr Robertson]

That is a very good point. I genuinely do not know what their logic is. As I have said, theirs is the party that shouts the loudest about its opposition to British rule, as they call it, yet theirs seems to me to be the party that will shortly bring it about. As I have also said, I do not want us to go down that road, and there is still time to avoid it.

That takes me to my next point, which is about power-sharing. I think that those on all sides, if they sign up to power-sharing, must accept what that means. It means working with people whom you do not necessarily like. It means working with people with whom you do not necessarily want to work. It means compromising on certain policies. You do not always get the exact policy that you want. Come to think of it, I suppose that every political party is like that. We all have discussions within political parties; we all have disagreements on policy within political parties. We all have to work within political parties with people with whom, perhaps, we do not want to work. That is the reality of politics. In fact, that is the reality of many jobs. People who work in companies have to work with people whom they do not like. They have to work on policies which are set by management and with which they may not agree. That is the nature of work. If people are not prepared to accept compromises—if they are going to run away every time there is a difference of opinion, and take the ball home, and bring the institutions down—the system simply will not work. I think that all parties—I am not talking about just one party—must accept that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

I do not want to bore the House with the details of what happened last December, but the First Minister made it quite clear at that stage that she believed that she had nothing to hide. She was prepared to face an inquiry of whatever status was required to get to the truth, and that is still her position. In fact, she is co-operating on this.

The Bill is also necessary because of the way in which the finances in Northern Ireland have been left. Again, there are lessons to be learned from this. I suspect that the Secretary of State will have to come back at the end of June with another Bill to implement the budget in Northern Ireland. It will not be a satisfactory budget, because it will probably be based on last year’s distribution of finances to ensure that 100% of the budget is spent, and no new priorities will be set. As the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), stated, one of the central planks of the Executive’s economic policy cannot to be contained in that budget, because it will not be possible for this House, while we remain in the EU, to legislate for the reduction of corporation tax and, of course, to allocate funds for that. That will be a missed opportunity for many firms and prospective investors in Northern Ireland.

Let us look at why we have no budget, because this gives an indication of where Sinn Féin is and the prospects for an agreement. We do not have a budget in Northern Ireland not because the Executive could not agree one, and not because it was rejected by the coalition partners, but because there was never a budget brought forward to the Executive. Why was that the case? I think that Sinn Féin could not face the reality of having to introduce a budget in which hard decisions needed to be made. Of course, that was true about the restructuring of the health service. There was a report on restructuring the health service that set out how money could be saved and how some of the problems it faces could be addressed, but Sinn Féin did not act on it. Why? Because that involved hard decisions. When it came to welfare reform more than a year and a half ago, Sinn Féin did not act either. It was quite happy for that to be dealt with by the Government here.

There is a question that must be asked by those of us who are involved politically in Northern Ireland: is Sinn Féin serious about getting out of the impasse, or is it quite content? Those in Sinn Féin will never answer this, but are they quite content for the process to roll on and on, to have direct rule, and to have difficult decisions about the budget, the allocation of resources, Brexit and all the other things that concern them decided here? They can then blame the big bad Brits, but keep their hands clean and maintain the myth in the Irish Republic, perpetuated by the bearded guru, Gerry Adams, that somehow they have an economic policy that can avoid any austerity measures. The one thing they do not want is to have to introduce austerity measures or cuts in Northern Ireland while they are promising people in the Irish Republic that they have some kind of economic magic wand they could wave if they were only in coalition down there.

This is the question that the Secretary of State has to ask. It is the question that we as a party have to ask, too, as well as the other parties in Northern Ireland. What concessions does Sinn Féin really want, or might direct rule suit its purposes until the election takes place in the Republic? Why did those in Sinn Féin not bring forward a budget? Why did they not make hard decisions when they could in the Northern Ireland Assembly? They consistently—this has always been their position—run away from these decisions. If that is the case, we will have an impasse after the election on 8 June.

The difficulty in the talks is that we have seen the reason why Sinn Féin cannot or will not go into government change almost weekly. First of all it was the RHI, but RHI is hardly mentioned now. The Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee was right—was the RHI such a big scandal that it should have resulted in a constitutional crisis? At the risk of causing some anger among Government Members, let us look at the RHI throughout the United Kingdom, and at Drax power station, where a coal mine down the road was closed while wood pellets were brought from halfway around the world. There is no cap on the subsidy—it started at £400 million, it is now £600 million, and by 2020 it will be £1 billion. Did any Minister resign? Did the Government fall? No, yet a £25 million overspend that has now been corrected in Northern Ireland caused a constitutional crisis.

[Mr Laurence Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman makes the point very well. I put it to him that there is no issue that this House could face that would persuade us to disband the whole Parliament, is there? That is the point.

[Sammy Wilson]

This is a point that was made time and time again. Of course, Sinn Féin was ably assisted by the BBC, which, for 70 consecutive days, I think, kept the issue in the news bulletins. Of course, now it has been dropped and we hardly ever hear it mentioned.

There are other issues that have come to the fore, such as the Irish language Act and the denial of rights of Irish language speakers. Of course, I wish the hon. Member for Blaydon well when he leaves this House, but we saw the face of the Labour party in this House this afternoon and we heard the voice of Sinn Féin. When Labour’s spokesman gave his speech at the Dispatch Box, we heard the same kind of excuses, we heard that people were being denied their right to speak the Irish language. They are not being denied their right to speak the Irish language. We fund the Irish language through the Assembly to the tune of £171 million. We allow Irish language schools to be opened and fund those schools when there are as few as 14 pupils in them while at the same time closing schools in the state sector with 50 or 100 pupils in them. Yet we are told that we somehow or other do not give proper treatment to those who wish to speak the Irish language. Councils are free, if they wish, after following the requirements of the legislation, to put Irish street names up on streets across their areas, yet we have this myth perpetuated that the Irish language and the refusal to accept an Irish language Act are the big impasse in the talks.

We heart parroted again today—surprisingly, I even saw the Under-Secretary of State nodding his head—ideas about people being denied their rights on gay marriage and denied certain abortion rights. I simply say to the Minister that the whole point of devolution is that people in the regions of the United Kingdom have the opportunity to make the laws that they believe best reflect the views in their society. I would say the same to the Labour spokesman. If you want uniformity, do not devolve the issue. If you are allowing differences in different parts of the United Kingdom, respect devolution and respect the views of the parties elected to those Assemblies, who, by the way, stand on their manifestos, who do not hide their view. We have never hidden our views on these issues in our manifestos; people vote for us on the basis of our manifestos and we then have a duty to reflect that in the decisions that are made.

It is not about rights, of course, because, despite all the rhetoric from Sinn Féin about equality, respect, rights and so on, we have seen that when it comes to the rights of those who served in the security forces, there is no willingness to show respect. When it comes to the views of the people we represent on many of these issues, there is no respect there. In fact, there is a recommendation that we should somehow abandon the promises we made to those people. I say to the Minister and the shadow Minister, do not be taken in by the idea that that is the cause of the impasse in the talks.

We have been told that the issue is Brexit. I find that very strange coming from Sinn Féin, because the one party that will not shape the Brexit talks, the negotiations or the outcome of Brexit decisions in this House is Sinn Féin, because its Members do not attend. Yet they want a broad coalition against Brexit. The Social Democratic and Labour party does not like to say that it wants to get involved with a sectarian pact with Sinn Féin, so it is trying to portray it as a liberal, progressive pact against Brexit, which also includes the Alliance party, which seems a bit reluctant, and the Greens. Let us not be in any doubt: any pact on any seats that involves Sinn Féin and the SDLP is a sectarian pact—it is not about changing Brexit—

Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Laurence Robertson

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

That was exactly the point I was going to make. Having said that there are exceptions to this, the exemptions are important because one of the fastest-growing sectors in the higher wage end of the Northern Ireland economy has been those back-office financial services jobs. We would not want to lose the ability to attract them. There is provision in the Bill to allow for that. Whether they are brought as separate or spur companies to the main company, they will nevertheless be subject to the new regime.

There are some dangers. One danger we have heard about time and again—it was alluded to by the shadow Secretary of State—is the potential loss of public sector expenditure. Under the Azores ruling, we will have to pay for whatever the forgone revenue happens to be. That will depend on the rate we eventually set. At maximum, it could be about 3% of the current revenue budget available to Northern Ireland. In the current circumstances, to try to find that immediately would be very difficult, which is one reason why the decision to introduce this will not be implemented until at least 2016-17. That will give the Executive time to plan.

We must remember, however, that the reduction in the block grant and money available for public expenditure in Northern Ireland will be offset by the expansion in other parts of the economy. Yes, that is a gamble, but can we politicians in Northern Ireland sit on our hands and do nothing, knowing that public expenditure is going to tighten, regardless of whether there is a Labour or Conservative Administration, given how heavily reliant we are on public expenditure? That would be wrong. The shadow spokesman wants to know the reason for my alleged conversion. This is one of the issues to weigh in the balance. Can we just drift along, knowing that regardless of which party is in government at Westminster the public sector is going to contract, and make no provision for expanding the private sector?

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. On the reduction in the block grant, however, we do not know what the block grant will be in 2017. It might be higher than expected, in which case perhaps the consequential drop would not be felt. It could also be argued that the recent agreement at Stormont House already mitigates any reduction.

[Sammy Wilson]

Given the comments from the hon. Gentleman’s party and the Labour party, I suspect the grant will not be higher. Furthermore, we still have to deal with our dependence on public sector expenditure. It is being squeezed all the time, and therefore we need to look at rebalancing the economy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), who drew on his experience in the Northern Ireland Assembly to make a very useful speech. I also congratulate the Secretary of State on introducing the Bill, which has taken a good deal of skilful negotiation, and on doing so before the election. It would have been easy to push it back. I think the whole House is grateful to her.

I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson). I had the pleasure of working with him in opposition when he thought outside the box and came up with this idea. Yes, it had been discussed to some extent, but it had not been fully discussed in this place. At the time, there was opposition, as there always is when somebody comes up with a radical new idea, but he had the foresight, determination and courage to press ahead, and when he became Secretary of State, he made it clear that it was one of the most useful things we could do for Northern Ireland. We are now seeing the benefit of his work.

A few years ago, this proposal was the first thing the Select Committee looked at when we wanted to find something that moved us away from the orange and green issues and the security situation—serious though it was—to look at different ways of helping the people of Northern Ireland. We thought that the economy was one way we could do that. We took evidence from a great many witnesses—businesses, trade unions and very many other people—and eventually came up with a report that recommended the devolution of corporation tax to the Assembly. I should point out that it was not a unanimous decision. Several Committee members had concerns or reservations, a number of which have been addressed by the hon. Member for East Antrim. However, we felt that the benefits would be overwhelming and that we could address the problems that the decision might throw up.

As has been said, Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom that shares a land border with another country, and that country happens to have corporation tax at a much lower rate. As has been pointed out, southern Ireland—the Republic of Ireland—stuck to that policy through thick and thin. I remember going to see the EU Commissioner when the Select Committee was looking at the issue. He was rather dubious about the Republic of Ireland’s low level of corporation tax and expected that it would have to roll over, give way and increase the rate. However, as I said to him, that might have been okay in the short term, but what would it have done for the Republic of Ireland’s longer term prospects? I am glad that that country won the day.

I recognise—I say this as a Unionist—that there was some concern about setting the rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland to match that in the Republic, as though that was somehow giving up or compromising on Britishness. It is nothing of the sort. We have a single electricity market across Ireland. Ireland is promoted as one for tourism—I think we could do more on that—and there are experiments with common visa arrangements. All that is sensible. To me, that is not about green or orange; it is not about Britain or a united Ireland. These are sensible measures. Giving the Assembly the ability to cut the rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland to compete with the south would be a simple and sensible arrangement, and there is a need to do it.

As we have seen from the economic statistics, which have been discussed in the House and repeated many times, Northern Ireland lags behind on many measures when compared with the rest of the United Kingdom. It is doing okay—it is improving and getting there—but it really needs a boost to move it along rather more rapidly. That is why, interestingly, as well as most members of the Committee and most witnesses agreeing with the proposal to devolve responsibility for corporation tax to the Assembly—along with every political party in Northern Ireland, which is rather unusual—the Irish Government agree with it too. I have heard the Taoiseach on more than one occasion say that he thinks it would be a good idea for Northern Ireland to be able to have the same level of corporation tax. He does not see it particularly as a threat; he sees it as a sensible move.

The Committee also found that corporation tax in itself is not necessarily the silver bullet. It is not going to transform the whole economy—other measures are needed, such as improvements in the planning regime and many other areas—but it is a good headline grabber. It will grab the attention of the business world, and that can only be a good thing. For example, just a few weeks ago the Committee travelled to Belfast and had a meeting with Senator Gary Hart, who was over to help with the discussions. We put the point to him, and he said the change would remove one of the reasons for not investing in Northern Ireland, because when people look from afar and see the island of Ireland, where are they going to go? Of course, other factors come into play too, but if corporation tax is 12.5% in the Republic and 20% in Northern Ireland, surely that is a draw towards the Republic of Ireland. He said he would be willing to try to set up a trade delegation from the United States to come to Northern Ireland with a view to exploring the investment opportunities. That has to be a very positive move indeed.

Again looking from afar, it is not just that Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland that is a compelling reason for making this move. Northern Ireland is also part of an island off an island. If it is exactly the same as the rest of the United Kingdom, what is the benefit of investing in Northern Ireland? We have to ask ourselves that question. What will draw companies to Northern Ireland rather than investing on the mainland? If everything is the same, perhaps they will not do that, but if things are more attractive in Northern Ireland, surely companies and investors will consider their options in the Province. To an extent, it is the same with the United Kingdom, which is one of the very many reasons why I am not for making ourselves exactly the same as the European Union. If we are exactly the same as mainland European countries such as Germany or France, what is the attraction of coming to the United Kingdom and investing here? There has to be a reason for people to come here, and it is up to us to give them that reason.

I want to touch on another point, which is slightly off the issue, but which is important when we consider the extent of the benefit that reducing corporation tax might bring. When we were in the United States on a Select Committee visit about 18 months ago, we discussed this issue—very positively—and a number of others, but one thing that came up time and again was the violent scenes that we see on our television screens and which are flashed across the world. No matter what this place or the Assembly does on tax or any other incentives, it is destroyed in a single night, with a single vision of any violent scenes or paramilitary activity that is flashed across the world. Nothing could drive people away from Northern Ireland in a worse way or more quickly than that. Anybody in a republican organisation or a so-called loyalist organisation who engages in such activity is betraying the people they purport to represent. They really ought to bear that in mind.

There are a number of issues that perhaps need to be looked at in greater detail. I am not making a criticism, but I would ask the Secretary of State whether she has given any thought to how the Bill might be considered during its Committee stage. As I understand it, it will be considered in Committee upstairs. However, there are a number of issues that still need discussion, so it might be an idea to consider holding the Committee stage on the Floor of the House. As we move towards the election, sometimes the Chamber is not as heavily used as it might be at other times. Maybe we could consider discussing these issues in a way that allowed all Members to take part, rather than just a few Members upstairs.

I understand why this change cannot be introduced absolutely straight away, but I am a little concerned that it is being pushed back two years. A lot can happen in two years. However, while we have the full agreement of people in all the political parties in Northern Ireland—on this issue at least, if not on any other—let us take advantage of that. Let us drive this forward as quickly as we can.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that, first, budgetary planning must be put in place to deal with the payment that will come off the block grant? Secondly, as many firms make investment decisions over a long period, it makes sense to announce the change soon, but for payment to be in two years’ time, because that will reduce the cost to the Northern Ireland Executive, while at the same time attract firms that are thinking about investment now, but which will perhaps not implement it for a couple of years.

[Mr Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very reasonable point, which I suppose goes back to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire, who said we should get on at least with saying what we are likely to do, as that will start the ball rolling.

We also have to be careful not to expect too much of the Assembly when it comes to looking like an efficient decision making machine and getting this matter devolved. As everyone in this House knows, it was not designed for the purpose of being an efficient decision making machine; it was designed to bring people together to bring about peace, and there can be no greater cause than that. That issue has already started to be addressed through the Stormont House agreement; nevertheless, the Assembly is not the most effective machine. It has its problems—there is of course the need for votes on both sides to be in a majority. All that is not how this place works; nor would we get very much passed if we worked in that way. The Assembly was set up in that way for a different purpose, so I do not think too much store should be set by that. We should get on with this proposal in any case.

There are other important matters, including planning. Skills and education are important, too. We must ensure that we have a skilful and well educated work force in Northern Ireland, and then it becomes important for Northern Ireland to retain the people it educates. So many times we see a number of countries training and educating their people well, only to see them attracted to work abroad rather than bring the benefits of their skills and education to their own country. We need a peaceful society in Northern Ireland for that to happen—otherwise we will continue to lose people—and we need to create the sort of prosperity that people want to enjoy. If we can do all that, I think we will ensure that future generations are able to enjoy greater prosperity and greater peace than was available to past generations.

High Court Judgment (John Downey)

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Laurence Robertson

Thursday 27th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Robertson]

I am again grateful to the Attorney-General for that clarification, although it is in some contradiction to the advice I received from Queen’s counsel yesterday. Perhaps this matter could be taken up further, but at this stage it is probably better to move on from the case.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Given that this is not just about the judicial process but about the political confidence that people can have in assurances that were given in this House, and whether there was an attempt not only by the last Administration but by the current one to help terrorists guilty of crimes escape the consequences, does the hon. Gentleman agree that—regardless of how slim the chances were of a successful appeal in judicial terms—politically the right thing to do would have been to appeal?

[Mr Robertson]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and that is why the conflicting advice we have received has to be explored further. If a stay cannot be appealed, it cannot be appealed, but if—as the Attorney-General suggests—the issue is that there is no prospect of overturning the judgment, my view as a non-lawyer is that we should consider an appeal. It is extraordinary that a letter, which appears to be ambiguously worded, can take on greater importance than a charge of multiple murder. I do not know whether it is unique, but it is extremely unusual.

Northern Ireland Economy

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Laurence Robertson

Thursday 1st March 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Robertson]

Indeed, that was one of the points that we made in our report. We were astounded that the Treasury did not have a figure that we could use to assess the cost. I will explain the background. Because of the Azores judgment in Europe, it appears that if corporation tax is reduced for one area of a jurisdiction—not for all the jurisdiction—that part has to take the hit in terms of the outcome. In other words, if the tax take drops by, say, £100 million, it cannot be made up by Westminster. It has to be part of the block grant. We were astounded to find that the Treasury did not have that figure. Our report urges the Treasury to put a mechanism in place that will tell the Assembly—not so much us—what it will cost.

Corporation tax across the United Kingdom is on its way down. At the moment, it is 26%. In the Republic of Ireland, it is 12.5%. It is important to note that Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom to share a land border with another European Union state—the Republic, where there is a massive tax difference. The location of Northern Ireland is also important. It is an island off an island; it is peripheral. In my view, it certainly needs something that it can wave and advertise to attract inward investment, otherwise it may be easier to invest in other mainland areas or countries with lower tax rates. It is not immediately obvious why one should come to Northern Ireland, but it is easy to see why people go to the Republic of Ireland. It is possible that Google, Facebook and Twitter were attracted to Dublin because of the very low rate of corporation tax. Of course, inward investment is extremely important, but if a company is making a profit and paying a percentage of that in taxation, it has less money to actually spend on reinvestment.

As I said, not all Committee members agreed, but interestingly the Irish Government agree. The present Taoiseach has said publicly that he would approve of Northern Ireland reducing its corporation tax to 12.5%. That is an amazing situation to find ourselves in. We are competing with the Republic and we want to compete even more strongly, and they are in favour of that. Perhaps it is a mark of the progress that has been made in the incredibly good relations that exist between the Republic of Ireland and this country. It is certainly to be welcomed.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

rose—

[Mr Robertson]

I am happy to give way to the Minister.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Gentleman also accept that perhaps the Irish Government are keen for the rate to be reduced in Northern Ireland because it gives them some defence when it comes to their argument with Europe about whether their rate of corporation tax should be increased?

[Mr Robertson]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is right, and there may be political reasons why the Irish Government want the same rate. There may be political reasons why they want a lot of things the same across the island of Ireland. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I speak as a strong Unionist. However, the issue is bigger than any of those problems. The hon. Gentleman may be right in that case. He leads me to an important point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

That is correct. In the past three years when I have been Finance Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive we have cut spending on consultancy by 56%. That is a good result, as far as I am concerned, but of course many private sector consultancy firms do not see it as a good idea at all, because people have been laid off. That bears out the hon. Lady’s point.

I am not complacent about the relative size of the public sector vis-à-vis the private sector, but we must avoid a simplistic view of how to go about things. It should not be a case of squeezing out the public sector and filling the gap with the private sector. We should grow the private sector and use what we can, and the resources of the public sector, to encourage that.

[Mr Laurence Robertson]

I think that the hon. Gentleman would accept that my speech was based on the idea of growing the private sector. The Select Committee felt—not unanimously, but by and large—that cutting corporation tax to attract inward investment was a way of doing that. As a result of that the public sector would become a smaller percentage of the whole, without necessarily getting smaller.

[Sammy Wilson]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has clarified that, because I noted down his remark about reducing the size of the public sector. If he was speaking relatively, we are both arguing on the same lines.

My second point is that Northern Ireland still has a strong entrepreneurial spirit, despite all the years of trouble and how that put off private investment, and even drove out some of what was there. Indeed, the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) talked about the level of self-employment in Northern Ireland, which is higher than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. That strong entrepreneurial spirit is growing, and many firms have weathered the current recession. The Business Secretary has visited Northern Ireland to see the work of Bombardier. That is a leading firm, internationally, in carbon fibre use in aircraft production, and it is growing; it is one of our biggest manufacturing employers. In my constituency there is F. G. Wilson, which sends generators around the world for Caterpillar, and is now back to its 2008 production levels, and Schrader Electronics, which provides a high proportion of the computerised valves for high-value motor cars, which tell drivers the car pressure. All the steel work for the Shard, which is being built down the road from here, is supplied by a firm in the back of beyond in County Fermanagh. It takes the steel in and ships it out, and because of the excellence of its manufacturing and engineering skills it can still compete for high-prestige jobs such as those that we can see from this building. I could go on.

The news is not all bad, and despite the recession there are many firms that have looked for ways to keep their work force together. One of Northern Ireland’s big advantages is that by and large work forces tend to be very loyal, and employers recognise and try to reward that. For example, Creagh Concrete just outside Toomebridge lost 90% of its business in the Irish Republic and had to lay off half its work force. It started to look for new business and is now back practically to the same level of employment, despite being in the construction industry, by making prisons that are like Lego kits. In fact, when I visited, there was half a prison sitting out in the yard and the other half was being produced. It is then taken on site and put together with all of the facilities inside it. The firm is changing from low value to high value concrete products. I could go on—there are many other examples of the desire of firms in Northern Ireland to grow.

What I say to the Minister today, I say in that spirit. We do not come to this place pleading special cases for a basket case, or as fiscal Oliver Twists holding out our hands, always wanting more and not prepared to do anything to help ourselves. People in Northern Ireland, entrepreneurs in Northern Ireland, want to help themselves and want to grow the economy. However, certain matters, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for South Down, rest with the Government at Westminster and therefore need attention.

Of course, there are matters on which the Northern Ireland Executive can act. It is not my place here to talk about them, or to talk about how adequately or inadequately they have been done. However, I have to respond to the hon. Member for South Down, who somehow thinks that the money allocated to Northern Ireland is not sufficient, not well spent and could be easily added to. She mentioned the fantastic document that her party produced on how we might raise revenue. I know that her first name is Margaret, but when I read the document I thought it was Margaret Thatcher reincarnated in Northern Ireland—the iron lady, though in the hon. Lady’s case it might be more like the tin foil lady.

The document included a list of privatisations from which money could come. Let me just list some of them: the sale of allotments; the sale of the Speaker’s house—I do not think it is his personal house, but there is a house in the grounds of Stormont; the sale of an airport that we do not own; and money from developers who are not building anymore. I could go on. Not one of them stacked up. We get the easy answers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

No, I will not give way. This debate is not about the internecine warfare that goes on in the Northern Ireland Assembly, much as I enjoy it. I am sure that hon. Members do not want a rehash of the kind of budget debates we have in that other place. I will make one point, however, because there has been a call for more devolution of tax-varying powers in Northern Ireland. There seems to be a contradiction. On the one hand, the idea is that if we had tax-varying powers we could use them to spend more money on public sector projects. On the other hand, when we get those tax-varying powers it is not to put taxes up, but to bring taxes down. I do not know how we bring taxes down and spend more money as a result, but that is the equation put forward by the hon. Member for South Down, which I think is part of her party’s policy. More recently, we have been told that if motor tax were devolved to Northern Ireland, we would be able to avoid all the changes that we do not want to introduce in welfare reform. From the devolution of motor tax we could find—according to the SDLP’s erroneous figure—£600 million. I would not like to be a motorist in Northern Ireland if we had to raise £600 million extra from a motor tax.

There are many issues I do not run away from. The Executive and the Assembly in Northern Ireland cannot run away from their responsibility for the things that they have to do to try to help to rebalance the economy. Some things are done well, some things are not being done so well, and some things still have not even been started. Those are internal matters, and the Minister may make reference to them later on. However, we are well aware that where we have responsibility, that responsibility should be taken. However, certain matters reside here at Westminster, and they are important if we are to rebalance the economy in Northern Ireland.

The first matter is the debate on devolution of corporation tax and tax-varying powers in relation to corporation tax. I would be cautious about that. It is not that I would be opposed to it, but if it is devolved it must be devolved at a price that does not put further pressure on an already pressurised public sector budget in Northern Ireland. We have lived with the cuts. I am not one of those who believes that because of Northern Ireland’s special circumstances we ought to be exempt from all of the financial difficulties that have to be faced by the rest of the people in the United Kingdom. I do not take that stance. It is an unreasonable stance for people from Northern Ireland to take.

We have lived with a £4 billion reduction in our budget in the next four years—a 40% reduction in the capital budget for expenditure in Northern Ireland in the four years. We have sought to ameliorate that by looking at what sources of revenue we could raise, what assets we could sell, how we could switch expenditure around, and where we could make savings. If, on top of that, as a result of the devolution of corporation tax, we were then hit with an additional burden—a burden that the Treasury estimates could be anything up to £500 million—that would not be either fair or sustainable. Given that the price would be paid immediately and the benefits would only be experienced in the medium term, that price would not be affordable. Nor would it produce, even in the medium term, the desired result of rebalancing the economy.

[Mr Laurence Robertson]

May I point out that devolving that power would cost absolutely nothing at all? The Select Committee’s proposal for it to be devolved costs nothing. The action that the hon. Gentleman’s Committee then takes is for him to judge.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

Of course that is true, but there is no point in devolving corporation tax if we are not going to do something about the rate of corporation tax. The whole idea is to try to give us the same advantage as there is across the land border in the Irish Republic. The estimated cost so far is approximately £500 million. However, we will be meeting the Minister and other Ministers soon to discuss this matter. There are ways of alleviating the cost of it. Built into it are indirect costs, for example assumptions about profit movements that Europe does not expect the Government to build in at this stage and, indeed, says could be looked at retrospectively once we see what happens. That would bring the bill down considerably.

No consideration has been given to the secondary effects, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim mentioned, such as increased VAT, national insurance contributions and income tax. I am not holding out the begging bowl, but those are legitimate things that the Government could consider if they wish to aid and abet those of us in Northern Ireland who believe that it is important to change the balance in our economy. We must become less dependent on the public sector, and our economy must be more balanced and able to grow because of a strong, healthy, vibrant private sector that is not disadvantaged by a tax rate that is different from the one in other parts of the island.

The hon. Member for Tewkesbury rightly mentioned energy costs, which shows that he and his Committee have good soundings on the ground in Northern Ireland. High energy users in Northern Ireland are finding that we have the highest energy costs of any part of the United Kingdom. I do not want to name the high energy users: many are well known. I do not wish in any way to raise alarm about the situations in which they find themselves, but many are at present looking hard at their operations because of the rising cost of energy in Northern Ireland, with the carbon price floor being set by the Government. We can argue about whether all this is necessary: I am not getting into that debate, because hon. Members know that I probably take a different stance on these issues from many others. We could debate all day whether setting a carbon price floor is necessary to save the world in 50 years. All I can say is that when it does not exist in the Republic of Ireland or in many of our competitor countries, we are placed at a grave disadvantage.

Hon. Members should not forget that the Government are encouraging us to consider export markets, which we are doing, which means opening ourselves up to competition and competing in markets with firms that do not face these additional costs. I am not the only one saying this. Representatives throughout the UK are saying that it is having the same impact in their constituencies.

[Mr Robertson]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, if the energy is not produced in Northern Ireland—and assuming demand stays the same—it will just be produced somewhere else?

[Sammy Wilson]

Having two of the major power stations in my constituency, I know this already. They are considering what their investment will be in future. In a single electricity market and with that interconnection with the Irish Republic, of course, we could find ourselves increasingly at the mercy of what happens in another country, with all the difficulties that that causes. The Government should consider what can be done with energy costs, because that is important.

On devolution of other tax powers, there may be occasions when we look specifically to have control over some things. I want to put on the record my appreciation, and that of the Northern Ireland Executive, for the work done by the Government on air passenger duty, particularly on direct long-haul flights from Northern Ireland—especially to north America—which was going to have an impact on our economy. Hon. Members have mentioned the importance of tourism, but it was not just about that; it was much more about the impact on foreign direct investment and inward investment, which was worth an awful lot in respect of our economic strategy. Around summertime last year, Northern Ireland Office Ministers worked with Treasury Ministers in the middle of the recess to get this thing resolved. It would be churlish not to show our appreciation for that work and for the way that it will now go through. That was an important measure.

I am not a great fan of devolution of more fiscal powers to the Northern Ireland Executive, but there will be occasions when we perhaps need to consider specific issues. I hope that a response will be forthcoming.

It is important to mention that the banking structure in Northern Ireland is not the same as in any other part of the United Kingdom. Some 95% of banking in Northern Ireland is done through Irish banks, which are in a poor state, or through Ulster Bank, which is an annexe of RBS. Many of the other banks that people have access to in the rest of the UK do not operate in any significant way in Northern Ireland. As a result, all the surveys about how businesses are faring in respect of banking show that Northern Ireland falls well below other parts of the UK, in respect of the terms that are offered, the availability or restriction of credit, or calling in loans.

If anything will crush the ability of the private sector to grow in Northern Ireland, it will be the absence of liquidity. The Northern Ireland Executive have considered various things, including loan guarantee funds, which the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment operates. We are considering how we can attract equity funds and what we can do to put some money into equity funds to get venture capital, especially for start-up businesses in Northern Ireland.

It is important that the banking sector operates properly in Northern Ireland. For example, here are some things that the Government could do. Why do we not have regional figures for how well Project Merlin is operating? I suspect that, although banks are meeting their targets throughout the UK, proportionally those targets are not being met in Northern Ireland. Could the Government do something in respect of credit easing? What could the Government do to ensure that the liquidity, which is generally pumped into the banking system, is reflected in the liquidity available to banks in Northern Ireland and, therefore, available to customers?