Social Security

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Alasdair McDonnell

Wednesday 14th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman not honestly accept that, really, the whole debacle was more about him and his party not wanting to troop through the Lobby in a love-in with Sinn Féin to inflict poverty on people in Northern Ireland?

[Sammy Wilson]

This is the amazing thing: I know there are all these attempts to rewrite history, but it was a DUP Minister who actually brought the legislation to the Assembly—who was prepared to walk through the Lobby and to vote for it. However, because a petition of concern was introduced by the SDLP, even if a majority of Members in the Assembly had voted for the legislation, it would still not have become law. Once that petition of concern was triggered and the legislation was turned down, we could not have any welfare reform Bill. That is the truth of the matter—not that we ran away. We faced up to things. I can remember doing interview after interview where we even faced flak from people who said, “You’re going to hurt individuals because of part of this legislation.” We argued, “At least we’ve done something to mitigate it. We have got the best possible deal.”

Can I just say that we did get changes and allowances made by the Department for Work and Pensions? I want to give credit to Ministers in the Department. When we were negotiating on welfare reform, they accepted that Northern Ireland could make changes, albeit that we had to accept the financial consequences of those changes. However, flexibility was demonstrated by the Department, although it was rejected by those who wanted simply to be able to say, “We are purer than everyone else on this issue. We have stood on our principles”—regardless of the consequences of that.

We have the legislation that we have today. Those who are most vulnerable in Northern Ireland have been safeguarded by the changes that have been made and by the resources that have been devoted to this issue by the Northern Island Assembly, and that has been a painful choice, because, of course, it means that there is less money to spend on other things.

Devolution and Growth across Britain

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Alasdair McDonnell

Wednesday 3rd June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

I welcome the opportunity to make a small contribution to today’s Queen’s Speech debate on the topic of devolution and growth. I would like to put the emphasis on the growth.

We heard in the Queen’s Speech that there will be renewed focus on the Stormont House agreement, which we very much welcome. The SDLP, along with four other Northern Ireland parties, had useful meetings with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Irish Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan yesterday afternoon. In that regard, we are all well aware of the current very difficult issues Northern Ireland is facing, particularly over the vexed issue of welfare reform. We are fully aware that other regions share the problem, but we believe that it will have a particularly harsh and devastating effect on those with disabilities, the vulnerable and those in the margins of our society.

For the benefit of the House, I would like to remove any doubt and reaffirm that the SDLP will continue to engage with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the four other main parties in Northern Ireland and the Irish Government on all the challenges and issues linked to, and flowing from, the Stormont House agreement. We support devolution, and we constantly work to make Northern Ireland work within that devolution framework. The SDLP will continue to build on the strong elements of that Stormont House agreement and to improve the elements that are weak. That was our pledge when the agreement was made at Christmas on the conclusion of the talks, and it is our pledge today. We have remained true to that promise and will continue to propose progressive amendments and improvements to the current package of welfare reform in ways that we feel will best protect the vulnerable in Northern Ireland society.

The issue of welfare reform opens up a much wider debate on the current perilous, vulnerable and unsustainable economic state in which Northern Ireland survives. The need is for a radical economic agenda to address that problem. For me and my party, this is a problem that will not solve itself.

We are told that we in Northern Ireland generate tax revenues somewhere in the region of £14 billion a year, and we are said to consume almost £24 billion in public services. That is a deficit of £10 billion a year in subventions, and it is a deficit covered in part by the block grant and other subventions through the Barnett formula. We need that subvention, but we must also create some ambition and some parallel aspiration and hope for a better economic future for our children and our grandchildren.

My comments should not be taken in any way as accepting automatic reductions to the block grant or cuts, which can be avoided. Rather, I am advocating that something extra is needed—some sort of economic booster—if we are to achieve the decent economic balance that we deserve and hope for.

For many people, the situation is fiscally unsustainable, because the deficit is growing while the revenues remain flat. It is politically unsustainable, because the dynamic of political elements and developments here at Westminster are moving against us. It is socially unsustainable, because it does not encourage real political responsibility to counter the ever-present risk of social unrest in the streets. It is a problem, in short, that we all have to address. It first has to be honestly recognised and acknowledged.

[Sammy Wilson]

I hear all the hon. Gentleman’s fine words, but does he accept that the action that his party took, along with Sinn Féin, in blocking the Stormont House agreement has led to an increased deficit in the Northern Ireland budget this year? There is a hole of £600 million in the budget, which we must try to finance in the remaining nine months of the year.

[Dr McDonnell]

The hon. Gentleman has missed the thrust of what I am trying to say. There is an economic problem in Northern Ireland. We had a peace process, and a political process that flowed from it. The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that there was to be a peace dividend, which never quite arrived. We need to find ways and means of establishing that dividend. It is not enough to have welfare reforms without jobs for people to go to.

We must recognise the problem, and acknowledge that a problem exists. If we do not acknowledge that a problem exists, how can we tackle it? It is impossible to tackle a problem if we do not clearly understand its size and severity. We need a new consensus between the two sovereign Governments—the British and Irish Governments —all the parties in Northern Ireland, the business community and society at large on a meaningful programme for economic development. If that does not happen, we will end up with instability. We need everyone on board. In fact, in some respects we need a re-engineering of our whole economic outlook.

Our problem is compounded by the fact that only about 37% of the revenue produced in Northern Ireland is generated by what might be described as the private sector. Everything else is generated, in one way or another, by Government spending, and most people agree that that is not a sustainable position. The proportions are astounding. Almost the exact reverse of what is happening in Northern Ireland is happening in the Irish Republic, a few miles away. We are subsidised, and we have subsidy politics—which means that we have politics without much ambition, without much social development, and without much economics. We want a future, and our people want a future. They want a sustainable future for their children. That is why we in the SDLP are proposing a social transformation, perhaps on a par with the peace process—it could be described as a prosperity process—which will create a normal, sustainable economy.

This is not just about rebalancing the economy; it is about transforming the economy. Everyone pays lip service to the idea of transforming as well as rebalancing the economy. The Prime Minister himself paid a great deal of attention to it before the last election, but even he had to admit that it would take a generation to sort it out. Since then, little meaningful has happened except the cuts. A more balanced economy is something that cannot be wished into existence. It will not happen by accident, and it will not happen magically. We cannot make sense of cutting corporation tax and cutting higher education and training places at the same time. We cannot solve the problem by firing public sector workers. In fact, the problem is not in the public sector at all.

Northern Ireland Economy

Debate between Sammy Wilson and Alasdair McDonnell

Thursday 1st March 2012 Westminster Hall

[Sammy Wilson]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has clarified that, because I noted down his remark about reducing the size of the public sector. If he was speaking relatively, we are both arguing on the same lines.

My second point is that Northern Ireland still has a strong entrepreneurial spirit, despite all the years of trouble and how that put off private investment, and even drove out some of what was there. Indeed, the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) talked about the level of self-employment in Northern Ireland, which is higher than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. That strong entrepreneurial spirit is growing, and many firms have weathered the current recession. The Business Secretary has visited Northern Ireland to see the work of Bombardier. That is a leading firm, internationally, in carbon fibre use in aircraft production, and it is growing; it is one of our biggest manufacturing employers. In my constituency there is F. G. Wilson, which sends generators around the world for Caterpillar, and is now back to its 2008 production levels, and Schrader Electronics, which provides a high proportion of the computerised valves for high-value motor cars, which tell drivers the car pressure. All the steel work for the Shard, which is being built down the road from here, is supplied by a firm in the back of beyond in County Fermanagh. It takes the steel in and ships it out, and because of the excellence of its manufacturing and engineering skills it can still compete for high-prestige jobs such as those that we can see from this building. I could go on.

The news is not all bad, and despite the recession there are many firms that have looked for ways to keep their work force together. One of Northern Ireland’s big advantages is that by and large work forces tend to be very loyal, and employers recognise and try to reward that. For example, Creagh Concrete just outside Toomebridge lost 90% of its business in the Irish Republic and had to lay off half its work force. It started to look for new business and is now back practically to the same level of employment, despite being in the construction industry, by making prisons that are like Lego kits. In fact, when I visited, there was half a prison sitting out in the yard and the other half was being produced. It is then taken on site and put together with all of the facilities inside it. The firm is changing from low value to high value concrete products. I could go on—there are many other examples of the desire of firms in Northern Ireland to grow.

What I say to the Minister today, I say in that spirit. We do not come to this place pleading special cases for a basket case, or as fiscal Oliver Twists holding out our hands, always wanting more and not prepared to do anything to help ourselves. People in Northern Ireland, entrepreneurs in Northern Ireland, want to help themselves and want to grow the economy. However, certain matters, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for South Down, rest with the Government at Westminster and therefore need attention.

Of course, there are matters on which the Northern Ireland Executive can act. It is not my place here to talk about them, or to talk about how adequately or inadequately they have been done. However, I have to respond to the hon. Member for South Down, who somehow thinks that the money allocated to Northern Ireland is not sufficient, not well spent and could be easily added to. She mentioned the fantastic document that her party produced on how we might raise revenue. I know that her first name is Margaret, but when I read the document I thought it was Margaret Thatcher reincarnated in Northern Ireland—the iron lady, though in the hon. Lady’s case it might be more like the tin foil lady.

The document included a list of privatisations from which money could come. Let me just list some of them: the sale of allotments; the sale of the Speaker’s house—I do not think it is his personal house, but there is a house in the grounds of Stormont; the sale of an airport that we do not own; and money from developers who are not building anymore. I could go on. Not one of them stacked up. We get the easy answers.

[Dr Alasdair McDonnell]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that he has adopted many of those proposals in his current budgetary strategy?

[Sammy Wilson]

No, I do not think I have adopted any of them. The only one that was adopted was then condemned; namely, that we could get some money from housing associations by cutting their grant and making them borrow more in the market. When that was adopted, the first party to condemn it was the party sitting to my left. Even when we adopt some of that party’s ideas, it suddenly decides that they are not good ideas.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

I welcome the chance to speak in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Scott, and to put some of the challenges facing the Northern Ireland economy on the record of the House of Commons. I am very conscious of the time, so I will try to make my points without being quite as long-winded as some of my colleagues—[Interruption.] I am not talking about my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie)—[Interruption.] No. I was talking about the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen sitting to my right, who were eloquent but very long-winded.

The SDLP has long argued for—and indeed published—a series of constructive proposals and policies, which we believe go some way towards helping to build a reconciled, socially just and more prosperous society in Northern Ireland. Central to delivering sustained economic prosperity is the need for significant growth in the private sector. We are all agreed on that and I have not heard anyone here today saying anything different. However, as the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) have said, the banks are killing the private sector, and that includes Ulster bank, which is part of the RBS. Like others here, I get at least two or three problems a week relating to Ulster bank and RBS. Our private sector is shrinking.

One other issue that we need to consider—sometimes in the political context, this is difficult for some of my colleagues—is a much more proactive approach to building stronger business and trade links with business in the Irish Republic. We have not fully exploited every potential there or taken full advantage of every economic opportunity that exists in the island of Ireland as a whole. I want to see Northern business being able to take advantage of any market on the island. That does not preclude our belonging to the British market; the two things are not incompatible, but synergistic.

Achieving the growth in the private sector that we all so much desire is extremely challenging, particularly in the current financial climate, but it is a challenge that we must face and a problem that we must surmount. We cannot duck it, because it will not go away.

I am absolutely delighted to say that my friend, the hon. Member for East Antrim and the Minister for Finance at Stormont has complimented us on our fantastic documents—[Interruption.] Fantastic was the word he used. We appreciated it and we will return the favour in due course. Our documents, “New Priorities in Difficult Times” and “Partnership and Economic Recovery”—[Interruption.] No, no, the word was fantastic. The hon. Gentleman may have meant fantasist but he said fantastic. We are not looking for the negative; we are taking the positive. In those documents, the SDLP genuinely identified some of the tough choices and decisions that have to be made. We faced up to them and we should have been given credit for that rather than being abused for it. We pointed out the many opportunities for making public savings and how various types of jobs could be sustained and others could be created.

If we want to maximise the potential benefits that exist in the economy, we need to be ambitious and to exercise vision. In our document, we identified opportunities and potential for growth in education and skills training, finance, tourism and new technologies, including the biotech and nanotechnology areas.

The one area that I should like to bring to the Chamber’s attention is agrifood, which is a sector that we often forget about. It is an old industry. It is remarkable that the current Minister in the Irish Republic, Simon Coveney, has a plan, which he inherited from the previous Government when Brendan Smith was Minister for Agriculture, to double food exports within 10 years. There is no reason why we in Northern Ireland cannot take a leaf out of that book and do the same thing.

There are other aspects of the economy, such as renewable energy, which will help drive the expansion of the private sector. Others have already referred to the conversion of the old Harland and Wolff shipyard site in which many renewable energy machines, wind turbines, are being developed. That will not only reduce Northern Ireland’s dependence on fossil fuels, but put us in a stronger and more sustainable position economically in 10 or 15 years time.

If we are to attract greater foreign investment, we must invest in preparing our people, because that is the basic building block for rebalancing any economy. Others, particularly the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), have also made reference to that. The key is the STEM subjects— science, technology, engineering and maths—in our schools, because they are our bridge to creating exciting and interesting careers for our young people. We also need to increase university places to stop the brain drain. At the moment, people are leaving; they go to England, Scotland, Wales or elsewhere to university and they never come back. We need whatever brainpower we have if we are going to lift ourselves out of the situation that we are in.

On that point, I appeal for a significant expansion of the Magee campus of the university of Ulster. That campus has worked very well, it is working well and it can work even better, providing an engine to drive forward the economy, particularly the economy west of the River Bann.

Huge opportunities for innovation exist in the renewable sector, which I will discuss briefly. Northern Ireland is perfectly placed to harness wind and wave energy, and biomass and biogas. And God knows, Mr Scott, that if you were in Stormont you would understand why an industrialist has a plan to harness all the hot air coming out of Stormont on Mondays and Tuesdays. There is a conviction that much renewable energy can be captured there, but I will leave that to the future.

[Sammy Wilson]

Most of it is recycled in the first place—[Laughter.]