Paediatric First Aid

Debate between Sam Gyimah and Mark Hunter

Monday 15th December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gyimah]

We want to create a situation in which we have competent people dealing with this kind of incident. On its own, a first aid certificate, which means that someone can tick the box to say that they have a first aid certificate, does not mean that that individual will be able to deliver first aid as and when an incident happens. As the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) mentioned, in the case of one of the people who had a first aid certificate in this instance, their certificate had expired. If someone gets a first aid certificate, they have to renew it every three years.

I want to ensure that we do not end up legislating and having a tick-box culture, thinking that that in itself has addressed the problem, when there are a number of other things that we can do, as I will explain if hon. Members allow me to develop my points further. I am referring to work that we are doing with the National Day Nurseries Association to help nurseries to understand what it means to have capable and competent staff and how they can respond in an emergency. I believe that that is far more important than a tick-box approach to dealing with this kind of situation.

[Mark Hunter]

I thank the Minister for taking another intervention. With respect, I do not think that anyone here today has been arguing for a tick-box culture and, if I may say so, I do not think that that phrase is particularly helpful to the consensus that has emerged during the debate.

I want to follow up the intervention from the hon. Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey). The Minister referred to the changes to legislation. The fact of the matter is that it rests with individual organisations, individual nurseries, to decide what is and is not sufficient. The Minister says that if a nursery is operating over three floors rather than one floor, that is a different consideration. But as long as it remains the decision of the individual establishment, there will be inconsistencies.

Certain establishments—better-funded ones, with much more money—will no doubt ensure, as some already do, that every relevant member of staff has paediatric first aid training, but until it becomes necessary for all relevant staff to have that training, there will always be some nurseries, some of these businesses, that choose not to have every relevant member of staff trained. That is the core of the problem. The Minister needs to provide some clarity on why, apparently, the Government do not think that that would be a logical way forward. It would remove any uncertainty.

[Mr Gyimah]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He used Ireland as an example in his speech and, in the light of the intervention that he has made, I will refer to the Irish example. The Irish are actually moving towards the framework that we have in this country with the early years foundation stage. In response to a parliamentary question, they have said explicitly:

“The final draft will include a requirement that early years services have a person trained in first aid for children available at all times.”

The solution that we are adopting, which can best be described as one that allows nurseries to use their professional judgment in appointing the right staff to this vital role, is not as anomalous as the hon. Gentleman describes. I have said before and I will say again that not everyone who works in a nursery will be ideally suited to being a first-aider. Nurseries should ensure that their first-aiders have the confidence and the reliability to cope with an emergency, and I believe that the EYFS achieves that. At this stage, I do not feel that we need to amend those requirements further. I do, however, want to remain fully informed of the effects that those changes are having on the ground, and I know that the Department for Education plans to undertake a review of them next year.

I also know that the Thompsons were concerned that some nurseries might not know how to interpret the strengthened requirements. I am pleased that in direct response to the Millie’s Trust campaign, the Department for Education will issue in February new guidance for nurseries, setting out clearly what the expectations are and how nurseries can deliver on them effectively. I have asked the National Day Nurseries Association to help with that guidance. It will be identifying a number of nurseries delivering exemplary paediatric first aid practices, including methods used to ensure sufficiency of first aid-qualified staff, and providing case studies and videos to ensure that nurseries are absolutely clear on what the PFA requirements mean and how they should work in practice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Hunter]

Further to that intervention, does the Minister agree with this statement from St John Ambulance:

“Ensuring that every adult working in a child facing role has appropriate paediatric first aid training would decrease the delay in responding to a first aid emergency, and increase the quality of care”?

If he does, is that not somewhat inconsistent with his previous response?

[Mr Gyimah]

It is a powerful point. To restate my argument, not everyone with a certificate is necessarily the right person to deal with an emergency. We can argue that the likelihood of not having the right person on hand is reduced if everyone has that certificate, but we want to have a situation where nurseries follow recognised best practice, rather than to mandate it just so that everyone can say, “I have the certificate, and that is it.” We obviously value what St John Ambulance does, which is why the EYFS requires nurseries to use its training or British Red Cross training.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Hunter]

Yes, I would like to take the opportunity of summing up. To be candid, I find the Minister’s response a little disappointing. There seemed to me to be a fairly clear consensus—not only among the hon. Members who spoke, but also in the sources of information from which many of us quoted—that there is a need for something to be done.

No one is saying that the Government have deliberately neglected the situation or allowed it to happen; I am quite persuaded that the law of unintended consequences was involved. However there is clearly a problem, and as long as it is within the purview of individual establishments to take their own decisions about what is adequate and what is not and about whom they go to for the training—so that they need not be certified and accredited—there will still be doubt and uncertainty in the mind of many parents. A case has been made for a national framework.

[Mr Gyimah]

According to the EYFS, the content of the providers’ first aid courses should be from the British Red Cross and St John Ambulance, so that it is based on the good practice of those with expertise. The hon. Gentleman misquoted me on that.

[Mark Hunter]

The key point is this—I happen to have the St. John Ambulance note in front of me so I will refer to it again: St John Ambulance believes that every adult working in a child-facing role should have had training in paediatric first aid.

By highlighting the tragedy, and bringing it to the attention of parents throughout the country, we are giving the Government an opportunity to be seen to be listening and acting. It will not cost much money or need much legislative time to establish the safeguards, so that every parent taking their child to nursery will know that all relevant members of staff are adequately trained in paediatric first aid. It seems a simple, straightforward and relatively inexpensive request, and I am still baffled about why the Minister’s response has not been more optimistic and positive. I appreciate, however, that it will not be entirely down to him. I hope that we can explore the matter further in the private meeting to follow.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the e-petition relating to the Millie’s Trust campaign to train all nursery nurses in paediatric first aid.