Health and Social Care Leadership Review

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Wednesday 8th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I know that he has a long-standing, valuable interest in this issue. I appreciate that he has not had time to look at the report, but I think he will be pleased when he reads our recommendations around a modern training plan.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

The most important thing that happened in Westminster this week was yesterday’s reception for Harry’s Pledge. Harry is a young boy who needs a lot of care. Harry’s Pledge campaigns for the needs of carers and those who are cared for. I am introducing a private Member’s Bill to give guidance for that. Will the Secretary of State look at that Bill to see whether the Government could support it? Leaders in care need to have the guidance to judge whether they are succeeding.

[Sajid Javid]

This is a very important issue for my hon. Friend. I would be happy to meet him to discuss it further.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 19th April 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

Integration between the NHS and social care requires the right level and quality of workforce, both in the NHS and in adult social care. In the NHS in England, we have more doctors and nurses—more people working than ever before. In adult social care, we are recruiting at high levels, not least because of the huge recruitment campaign we ran with the sector, and some of the other changes we made, including the £400 million- plus of retention funding over the winter period. In addition, the support for the workforce more generally is making a real difference.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

In north Northamptonshire, integration is getting on very well, with Councillor Helen Harrison heading the adult social services. However, going back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer) said, there is the worry that because the NHS is so big it will overwhelm local government. I have told the Secretary of State that they do not want to mess with Helen Harrison, but can he ensure that there is a mechanism for reviewing that?

[Sajid Javid]

I know that my hon. Friend knows Helen Harrison extremely well, but he is right to talk about the importance of the NHS and the adult social care sector and local authorities working together. We must make sure that it is a true partnership, where one does not overwhelm the other and they work together towards their shared interests.

Elective Treatment

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 8th February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that all those working in health, and social care for that matter, have been the heroes of this pandemic. Everything that they have delivered and gone through over the last two years is something that the whole nation will respect. He is right to also point out that the expectation over the next few years for delivering on the plan is very high, and the workforce of course deserve maximum support. When it comes to pay, it is right that the Government listen to the independent pay review bodies, which will take into account a number of factors, and that is exactly what we did last year.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for coming to the House and making this announcement here first. Does he agree that, as other Members have said, particularly Opposition Members, we need to increase the workforce? How then can the mandatory vaccination of NHS health workers, which was going to lose us 80,000 people, possibly have been right? We knew the covid backlog was there, so how on earth was that ever a good policy? I know that Opposition Members supported it hugely, but Conservative Members had their doubts. Was it not a wrong decision?

[Sajid Javid]

I agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of the workforce, but I am afraid I do not agree with his comments about the plans for mandatory vaccination. I will not go through the details again; I did make a statement to the House on that last week, and in fact it was supported by the vast majority of Members of this House. The short answer to his question is that it is all about patient safety. The Government and the NHS are always absolutely right to put patient safety first, and although the Government have now, in the light of omicron, rightly changed their plans, it is still the professional responsibility of everyone working in healthcare to get vaccinated.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Thursday 13th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

That is an important point. When the country first discovered omicron, the tests that were in stock were not designed for another huge wave. However, the people who run testing at UKHSA responded very quickly by ordering almost any lateral flow tests that meet our standards that they could find. As I said in my statement, in December, we had 300 million as opposed to the 100 million that was originally planned and, in January, there will be four times the pre-plan amount. In answer to the hon. Lady’s specific question, whether for a workplace, for visiting a care home or other reasons, people will be able to get access to the lateral flow tests now that millions more have arrived in the country. They have been distributed and people can get them online or from pharmacies.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I am very grateful to the excellent Secretary of State for coming to the Dispatch Box yet again to update the House and particularly for making an announcement first in the House rather than to the media.

I wonder whether my right hon. Friend agrees with Lord Frost, who said:

“I would like to see the Government ruling out lockdowns for the future, repealing the legislation, ending them…We can’t afford it, it doesn’t work, stop doing Covid theatre—vaccine passports, masks, stuff that doesn’t work”.

[Sajid Javid]

I have huge respect for Lord Frost and for my hon. Friend, who has just shared some important points. No one wants to see this country go back into anything resembling a lockdown. As he will have heard earlier, while we have had to put some restrictions—the so-called plan B—in place over the past few weeks, I hope he will agree that, when we reflect on those restrictions and compare them with other countries in Europe, large or small, we are the freest country in Europe. The reason for that is the pharmaceutical defences that I talked about earlier: we are the most boosted large country in Europe, with the most antivirals per head and the most testing. That is what we should focus on for the future as we learn to live with covid.

Coronavirus Act 2020 (Review of Temporary Provisions) (No. 3)

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

Thank you for that intervention, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think that I have been very clear not only about the history of the Act, but about the importance of Ministers coming forward for regular scrutiny to set out which provisions can be expired or suspended, or if expiry or suspension are not possible, why the provisions are necessary. That is the purpose of our debate today.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I think the problem for the Secretary of State is how the Government acted in the past by not bringing things to the House for debate; I know that the chairman of the 1922 committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady), used a lot of force to try to get them to do so. We are being asked to take something on trust from the Government when their previous behaviour towards the Act has been—how can I say it? —not very good.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 1st October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

The Government are focused on leaving the European Union on 31 October. We are trying to do that with a deal, but if we do not, we will leave with no deal. The hon. Gentleman talks about the Government’s policy. At least this Government have a clear policy on Brexit; what is the policy of the Labour party?

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

3. If he will make it his policy to suspend the 2019 loan charge for the duration of the review of that charge commissioned by his Department.

Northamptonshire County Council

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments, but I must say that I do not think he listened to a word of my statement. Once again, he appears to have come to the Dispatch Box with a pre-prepared statement. It is clear that he is very disappointed indeed by the report because it is not what he wanted. He wanted a report that he could use for party political purposes, so that he could play his favourite game, political football—a game that has no respect for the people of Northamptonshire.

The hon. Gentleman wanted to claim that what has happened in Northamptonshire was due to a lack of funding. He did not listen to what I said in my statement and he clearly has not read the report. He comes to the Dispatch Box having not even read the report—and he calls himself the shadow Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government. Had he read the report, he would have seen that the independent inspector is crystal clear that it is not an issue of lack of funds; it is to do with poor governance and poor financial management.

The hon. Gentleman must have been very disappointed that the report did not allow him to make his party political arguments. I noticed that he conveniently ignored the history of local government interventions, so let me remind him: in 2001, Hackney, Labour-controlled; in 2003, Hull, Labour-controlled; in 2008, Stoke-on-Trent, Labour-controlled; in 2009, Doncaster, Labour-controlled; in 2014, Tower Hamlets, Labour-controlled; and in 2015, Rotherham, Labour-controlled. Perhaps he can detect the pattern, but if he cannot, let me help: all those councils were Labour-controlled. He has conveniently ignored that.

The hon. Gentleman did manage to get round to a few questions, so let me try to answer them. He asked about the timescale for the decision that I am considering on sending in the commissioners. It is a “minded to” decision at this point. I will take representations, as I rightly should, up to 12 April, after which I will make a final decision. If the decision is to send in commissioners, they will be in place by the end of April.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether there will be more funding for the council. As I have said, the inspector has said that lack of funding is not the issue. Simply to give the council more funding would be to reward mismanagement and would clearly be wrong.

The hon. Gentleman asked about reorganisation. It is of course necessary to consider reorganisation, because that is one of the inspector’s central recommendations. I do not want to predetermine the outcome. The inspector has recommended two new unitaries. We are open-minded about the proposals and I will consider them carefully, to a timeframe that allows us to look at them properly and to make sure that any options are consulted on properly.

Finally, I suggest kindly to the hon. Gentleman that, if he wants to come to the Dispatch Box and be taken seriously, can he listen to my statements in future, instead of appearing and talking about fiction?

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I thank the excellent Secretary of State for his statement and agree entirely with its content. I share the sense that the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), does not seem to have read the report. Had he read it, he could not possibly have considered the situation to have anything to do with funding.

We must look to the future. Does the Secretary of State agree that the locally led initiative for the new structure must come from people locally and must come urgently? Can we ensure that we look into whether the council’s having a cabinet system rather than a committee system was one of the reasons for the failure? The new authorities should have not a cabinet but a committee system.

[Sajid Javid]

I thank my hon. Friend for all the work that he has done and continues to do to help his constituents in Northamptonshire, which he has demonstrated so ably again now. I agree that any reorganisation must be locally led, which means including the districts and local people themselves in any consultation. I heard what he said about the cabinet system; I am sure those are the kinds of things at which we will look carefully.

Local Housing Need

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Thursday 14th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

Like my hon. Friend, I have seen some excellent examples of innovative design and build, and it is certainly something we want to encourage. We have consulted in the White Paper on how to take that further, but I will be happy to talk to him if he has specific ideas about what more can be done.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

The excellent Secretary of State will know that both councils in my constituency have taken on board the need to build more houses, but there is one problem: the Isham bypass. For the Wellingborough North development, the bypass needs to be completed. I know this is not the responsibility of his Department, but he did say that he worked closely with the Transport Secretary, so could he arrange for a letter to be sent—if he does not have the answer now—confirming when the bypass is to be completed, so that we can carry on with the expansion of housing?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend highlights the importance of infrastructure to building the right number of homes. He asks me specifically about the Isham bypass. I will happily speak to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport and get back to him.

Housing White Paper

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

A consultation on supported housing is going on at the moment and the results will be out in due course.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that housing demand would fall if we could reduce the third of a million people coming into this country each year?

[Sajid Javid]

I have looked at this issue carefully and I am not sure it makes the kind of difference my hon. Friend believes it does. Two thirds of housing demand has nothing to do with immigration; it is to do with natural population growth, particularly through people living longer, and that will have to be catered for regardless. Even if immigration was to fall to zero, we would still have a deficit of some 2 million homes and people would still be in overcrowded homes, so we would still have to keep building.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Monday 16th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I am sure that the hon. Lady will welcome the announcement made a few weeks ago that tried to recognise the pressures that she identifies: there will be £900 million of additional funding over the next two years, on top of the £3.5 billion by 2020. She rightly highlights that we need to keep looking at this situation to see what more can be done.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk). Most Members have had somebody come to their constituency surgery who desperately needs help, with local government and the health service agreeing that they need help with social care, but with both blaming each other, and it becoming a complete mess. Would it not be a good idea, on a cross-party basis, to look at a new model for social care?

Local Government Finance Settlement

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Thursday 15th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

It is worth reminding the hon. Gentleman that at the last election he stood on a ticket that would have led to even less funding for his local authority, which I believe is Greenwich, and lower funding for the NHS as well. He should keep that in mind when he considers today’s announcement. He should welcome the fact that the Government have not only made more available in the spending review, but have announced an additional £900 million today. Just for next year alone, that will mean a minimum of an additional £3.1 million for his local authority.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

The discussion on this statement is rather sad, because there is too much party political point scoring on a very important issue. I agree entirely with the excellent Chairman of the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), and with the former care Minister, the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who speaks for the Liberal Democrats, that we need a policy with genuine cross-party support. This is not a party issue, and I urge the Secretary of State at least to explore the possibility of cross-party working on this issue.

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is right to say that the more we can all co-operate, put aside party politics and deal with this issue for the long term—there are some significant long-term challenges in the sector—the better off we will all be, and our constituents would thank us for doing that.

Casey Report

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 6th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Lady is right to raise the importance of making sure that refugees are integrated quickly and properly, and of providing the resources for that. She will know that a number of programmes are in place to do just that. If she believes that there is more that can be done, I am happy to learn more from her.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) on securing this very important urgent question, but I think we could sometimes be a little bit more positive about this. In Wellingborough, we have an integrated multicultural community, and we have had it for a very long time. We have Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Christian—both Labour and Conservative—councillors and candidates, and we have temples, mosques and churches. I wonder whether someone from the Secretary of State’s Department might at some point come down to see how this can work well, rather than for us always to concentrate just on where it is going wrong.

[Sajid Javid]

I think that is a very good idea. Again, my hon. Friend highlights something that we should never forget: we are talking about the challenges and how to deal with them, but so many immigrants who, through the ages, have come to this great country have made a huge contribution to our country and made us so much stronger.

Steel Industry

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Thursday 26th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

There is all sorts of speculation on this issue in the press, but what I can tell the hon. Gentleman, who has been very committed to this process—we have discussed it in person a number of times—is that Tata remains committed and very focused on the sales process. As I mentioned earlier, there are seven potential bidders. The next step is to narrow the field—that is important—so that we can all focus, along with Tata, on the most credible bids. The Government stand ready to work with those bidders.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

There is concern on both sides of the House about what would happen if the pension scheme was changed for Tata Steel. However, would not the sale be more attractive if we went to the root of the problem—the dumping of Chinese steel? Why can we not follow the example of the President of the United States, who has just put tariffs of 588% on Chinese steel?

UK Steel Industry

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Monday 11th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I know that the hon. Gentleman means well and has fought hard for his constituents, but I am sure he understands that in trying to secure a deal, it would not be in the interests of such a deal if the commercial terms were discussed on the Floor of the House. When buyers approach us or approach Tata, many aspects will be commercially sensitive. Some potential buyers will not even want to reveal that they are in discussions, and we must respect that or we risk losing a deal. I hope the hon. Gentleman can respect that too.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Surely the only way to secure a long-term future for the British steel industry is to stop Chinese dumping. The Americans have imposed a 266% tariff on Chinese products. The British Government cannot do so because we are in the EU. Does the Business Secretary agree that it would be in the interests of the British steel industry if the Government imposed a 266% tariff now and worried about the EU later?

[Sajid Javid]

I know what my hon. Friend means by that, but I think that what he is really interested in, as I am, is tariffs that actually work. The right level has to be the level that actually works. The Americans might have imposed higher tariffs, but if they are too high they will hurt the rest of industry and consumers and they will cost thousands of jobs down the supply chain. Where the EU has imposed tariffs, driven by evidence, the results have been a massive fall in imports. In rebar, for example, a 13% tariff led to a 99% fall.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

Absolutely. The hon. Lady makes an important point. I know that the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has been taking this matter very seriously. One thing we have done recently is to move some of the UKTI resources into my right hon. Friend’s Department so that there is better co-ordination.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I recently talked to a senior Indian businessman and asked him how we could increase trade with India. He said that the one thing we could do was to leave the EU because of the restrictions. Will the Secretary of State, either as Secretary of State or personally, endorse his comment?

[Sajid Javid]

I spoke to a lot of Indian businessmen and women and many Indian students last week. There is certainly one area in respect of which we could certainly increase our exports to India, and that is education.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

The one thing that businesses agree on is the need for reform. They are united in that, whichever business group one speaks to. If we can get those reforms, which I am confident about—and the Prime Minister has talked more about them this morning—we will see an even bigger boost to jobs and opportunities in Britain.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State remind the House of the trade deficit that we have with the EU, and of the fact that the unreformed EU is clearly not working for British business?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is right to remind us of the current deficit. That is why one of the reforms that we want is a deeper and broader single market which includes digital and professional services, which Britain is very good at, alongside manufacturing, so that we can do more trade.

Steel Industry

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise this matter, which goes to the heart of one of the competitiveness issues facing the industry—namely, the relatively high energy costs. Some of those costs are imposed here domestically, and some are imposed directly through EU policies. Where we can take action, such as through the compensation package, we are doing so. I hope I can assure him that we want to pay more of the compensation that we have already announced as quickly as possible. That is why we want to get EU approval as quickly as possible.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I really do not think that this is a party political issue, as illustrated by the fact that we have had a Backbench Business Committee debate on the matter, which led to the steel summit in Rotherham. Will the Secretary of State answer the question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove)? He urged him to shoot first and ask questions later. Let us put in place what we think is right, and worry about whether the EU agrees with it afterwards. We need to do this now; otherwise, there might not be a steel industry left to worry about.

[Sajid Javid]

I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but he will know that the rules on state aid, unfair trade and compensation exist to protect British industry as well. Indeed, British industry, including steel manufacturers, would be the first to complain if other countries were violating those rules. Frankly, if we are going to complain about others violating the rules, we need to have clean hands ourselves.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I respect the hon. Gentleman, but given the utter shambles of his party’s EU policy I am surprised that he wants to ask that question. It is clear that free trade is hugely important to the prosperity of our nation, and that means working with our EU partners on more free trade agreements. That is at the heart of our renegotiation, because we want more free trade with an EU that is outward looking, not just inward looking.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

First, may I congratulate the new Leader of the Opposition on his shift in policy in making Labour more Eurosceptic?

Is it not the truth that the European Union holds us back on free trade? Does our current account deficit of some £50 billion not prove that we would be better off out of the EU, with more free trade, more jobs and more business?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

The previous Secretary of State gave his approval for Rushden Lakes, a major retail and leisure facility in my constituency. The development is now well under way, and it will create thousands of jobs. Will the Secretary of State find time in his calendar next year to show his support for the development and for the success of Conservative economic policy?

[Sajid Javid]

Yes, absolutely, and I hope that Mrs Bone will be able to join us.

Royal Bank of Scotland

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

As I have said, such decisions are for the board of RBS, which is a commercial organisation. As we all know, however, because it is a commercial organisation in which the state is the majority shareholder, with the state’s interests represented through UKFI, when RBS makes a major decision it will inform the Government.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

May I pursue the question asked by the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg)? I am not entirely sure why the Minister made his statement. If this was a completely independent decision, what new Government policy has been announced today?

[Sajid Javid]

The Government decided that a statement should be made today because the issue is important to the population at large. Given the Government’s stake of over 80% in RBS, and given that the last Government pumped in £45 billion, I think it important for the Government to set out their strategy on RBS.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I congratulate the Government—the Conservative-led coalition—on reducing the deficit, but of course all that is slowing the rate of growth in the debt. When does the Minister think we will get to a budget that is balanced?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend makes a good point about how we must tackle the record national debt that we inherited. It went up threefold during the 13 years of the previous Government’s time in power. When we set out the Budget forecast next week, my hon. Friend will get a good answer.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

This Government rightly commissioned the report because we believe that Lord Heseltine has a lot of experience in that area. We will study it carefully and will respond in due course.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Does the Minister realise that unemployment in my constituency went down last month? Does he also realise that in the neighbouring constituency, Corby, the unemployment level fell by 5%? Does that not show that the Conservative-led Government is succeeding in Northamptonshire?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In the first two years of this Government, the private sector created 1 million new jobs whereas in the last 10 years of the previous Government the sector created about half of that figure.

Loans to Ireland Bill

Debate between Sajid Javid and Peter Bone

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). He made many powerful points, especially his last one. I note that the Bill is called the Loans to Ireland Bill, not the Loans to the Irish Republic Bill. I wonder whether the Government have had some foresight, and whether some of the loans will actually be provided to Northern Ireland, to help to reduce corporation tax there. Perhaps there is some hope in that regard.

I want to start by saying that we have an excellent Chancellor of the Exchequer and a first-class Treasury team, including my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, who has the misfortune to be at the Dispatch Box to listen to my remarks. On this particular issue, however, I think that they have got it wrong for a number of reasons. Everyone in the House wants to see the Irish Republic prosper, but the question is: which is the best way to help it? Its problem is that it is part of the euro. Government Members have always argued that the United Kingdom should not be part of the euro, because it cannot possibly work. It is not possible to have one fixed interest rate and one fixed currency covering a number of different countries. What we are witnessing is a crisis in which that problem has come to light.

If Ireland were not part of the eurozone—if it had its own currency—it could change its interest rate, but more importantly, its currency could depreciate, which would make it more expensive for exports to come into Ireland and cheaper for exports to go out. It is a market mechanism for self-righting an economic collapse, and because Ireland is part of the eurozone, it cannot do that.

I take the view that in the next few months the euro will collapse. It will not just be Ireland and Greece; it will be Spain, Portugal and possibly Italy. At that stage, it will be necessary to abandon the euro entirely or have two eurozones. If I am right in that assumption, it is a mistake to give £3.25 billion to the Irish at a time when it will do no good at all and that money will never be repaid. If we were paving the way for the Irish to have their own currency again, which would be part of the sterling area, we would be more of a help to Ireland. My argument is that we are sending the money in the wrong direction.

The second issue we have—to be fair to the shadow Chancellor, I think he was on to it—is that we do not know how the figure has been arrived at. Nobody has explained—at least, I have not heard anyone do so—why we have settled on £3.25 billion, but I think the Chancellor was arguing that that is the sort of amount we would have had to provide through the European financial stability facility if we had been part of the eurozone. Well, we are not part of the eurozone, so why should we be contributing to something that eurozone countries should be providing on their own?

[Sajid Javid]

Is my hon. Friend aware that recently the Prime Minister of Luxembourg made a proposal that the EU should issue EU-wide bonds, and does he agree that Britain should have nothing to do with such a proposal?

[Mr Bone]

Of course; I thank my hon. Friend for raising that.

I disagreed with the shadow Chancellor when he said that there were two extremes. One was to have a unified eurozone with central controls over taxation and spending. It is one option, and I accept that such a model would work, but I reject it completely. However, no one can pretend that the current system will ever work. We would just end up putting billions and billions more pounds into a system that will eventually collapse, and, in my view, that will happen earlier rather than later.

Let me return to how the €85 billion package is made up. We have €17.7 billion from the facility and €22.5 billion from the mechanism. The mechanism was designed for natural emergencies; it was never designed for this purpose, and yet we are taking more out of the mechanism, which has a total pot of €60 billion, than out of the one that has €440 billion. Why? The simple answer is that the United Kingdom has to contribute to the mechanism, but we do not contribute to the facility because it is all eurozone money. In my view we do not need to make this £3.25 billion loan; it should come entirely from the €440 billion that is available for exactly this reason. That is why the facility was set up.

I also did not follow the Chancellor’s argument when he said that because of qualified majority voting, we would not have voted against the use of the mechanism because we would have been overruled. I have to say to him that on a number of occasions I have voted on measures on which I know I will not win, but it does not mean that one should not vote that way; one should vote as one sees fit. I think on that small point the Chancellor has also made a mistake.

Many hon. Members will refer to the man on the Clapham omnibus, but in my case it is the man on the Wellingborough 46 bus, and such people make the following very simple point. My county council has announced that it will fire all its lollipop ladies and close a number of libraries, and those people say to me, “If we’re having to do that because we’re not allowed to increase the national debt, how on earth can you provide £3.25 billion to a country that is in the eurozone?” It is very difficult for me to give an answer. In fact, the answer I give is, “We shouldn’t be doing it.”

If the House divides on the Government’s proposal, I will, reluctantly, have to vote against it, not because I think the Government’s aim is wrong—because, yes, we want to have a prosperous Ireland—but because of the way this is being done and the way it is being funded. Nobody is suggesting that because we trade a lot with the United States of America, if there were a crisis there, we would suddenly lend it money. Ireland is a grown-up country. It decided to become part of the euro. The problem lies in the eurozone, and it should sort this out, not us.