Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Cathy Jamieson

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I wonder if the Minister can tell us why there have been no women on the MPC since June 2010. Why has the Chancellor not appointed a single woman to the MPC over those last four years, and does the Minister agree with Labour that it is time to put that right?

[Sajid Javid]

Appointments to the MPC should always be made on merit and—[Interruption.] Diversity is, of course, always an important consideration. Factors in decisions on appointing external members to the MPC include looking at career training and background as well as ethnicity and gender. [Interruption.] The Government would like to see more women on the MPC and will encourage them to apply. [Interruption.] It is also worth noting that four women have already been part of the MPC.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Debate between Sajid Javid and Cathy Jamieson

Wednesday 11th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

Both cases would be a deterrent. A key point of the change to criminal sanctions is that they would apply if a senior manager took part in any reckless action—there is a very strong test, as we have just heard—that led to the failure of a bank. It would not be appropriate to perform a legal analysis of what has happened in the past because we do not have the full facts before us, but if a board full of senior managers makes a decision on, let us say, a potential acquisition and they fail to carry out proper due diligence or they deliberately ignore certain risk factors, and that eventually leads to a failure and collapse of that bank, that will be an example of the situation that the new offence tries to capture. It is reasonable to say that, as those senior managers will be aware of the new criminal sanction, which did not exist before, it will bear on their minds when they make those important decisions. The Government amendments in this group will improve standards and the culture in banking.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have listened with interest to the Minister. May I first add my thanks to all the members of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, who have done us a great service in examining the issues in great detail? They include not only Members of this House but Members of the other place—the Archbishop of Canterbury, my noble Friend Lord McFall, Lord Turnbull and Lord Lawson. Other Members in the other place, including my noble Friends Lord Eatwell, Lord Mitchell and Baroness Hayter, have ensured that particular issues have been put on the agenda.

It would be remiss of me not to say a few words about how we have arrived where we are today—considering a vast number of Lords amendments at this stage. The concerns about that have been well rehearsed during discussion of the Bill and how it has been brought forward and considered. The Government commissioned the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards to ensure that recommendations could be added to the Bill, but we had a very thin Bill for Second Reading and in Committee. The commission recommended a three-month gap between the publication of the Bill and the commencement of the Committee stage, but the Government rejected that idea. Instead, this House had to consider the partial Bill before the final report on standards and culture had been published. It is pertinent to reflect on that, given some of the comments made by the Minister. Many of the issues that will be taken forward when the legislation is enacted will still depend on judgments being made and on getting the message across that the culture of banking, at whatever level, has to change. That would have been helped by further scrutiny at various points.

We must also remember that the Government’s response to the commission’s report was published only three or four hours before we started considering the Bill on Report. We had 183 amendments tabled during the next stage of the Bill, and I wish to put on record our concerns about that method of legislation. The Bill is now three times bigger than the one that was originally introduced, and consideration of Lords amendments took place only a couple of days after Third Reading—again, without much opportunity to consider matters in detail.

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[Sajid Javid]

Yes, I can confirm that. Although it remains for the regulator, once set up, to deem the regulated systems, we envisage that that will be part of its scope. My hon. Friend will know that the issue is being considered right now through a proposed European Union initiative. We would expect the regulator to take that into account as well.

[Cathy Jamieson]

What analysis have the Government undertaken of the impact of designating card payment systems for regulation? If the system will not come in until spring 2015, is there not a genuine danger of blight in terms of planning the way forward?

[Sajid Javid]

Before we made the final decision to create the regulator, a full consultation was carried out. We received input into that consultation from many stakeholders, and that formed part of the analysis of how the regulator could carry out its function, as well as the importance of having such a regulator. We expect not only that the regulator will be fully up and running in around 2015, but that once the Bill receives Royal Assent the FCA will begin the process of setting it up early next year. The FCA has resources that can be called on, and it has already started working on exactly how the regulator would operate, so I think that it will be able to start at least some of its work sooner than 2015.

Amendments 135 to 152 establish a special administration regime to be known as the financial market infrastructure, or FMI, administration. Inter-bank payment and settlement systems are integral to the efficient operation of the financial system, processing transactions worth hundreds of billions of pounds a day. Currently, if such a system becomes insolvent, it will typically enter the normal administration procedure and the administrator will be under a duty to look after the interests of the company’s creditors without regard to the implications for the wider UK economy. In those circumstances, the continued operation of crucial payment and settlement services could be threatened, which could have a significant adverse impact on the market and the wider economy. The amendments will ensure the continuity of crucial service provision of recognised inter-bank payment systems and security settlement systems in a time of crisis by imposing a duty on an FMI administrator to maintain the company’s crucial services during administration.

The key features of FMI administration are: the FMI administrator is placed under a duty to maintain the company’s crucial services during the period of FMI administration; the Bank of England is given the ability to apply to the court to place a relevant company into FMI administration and has conferred on it a power of direction over the FMI administrator; powers are granted allowing for the property, rights and liabilities of the relevant company to be transferred; and restrictions are established on early termination of contracts for the supply of certain goods and services to a company that has entered FMI administration.

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[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend will know that the FCA currently has an objective to promote competition, and I know that he supports that. The Government have accepted the recommendation from the commission to give this secondary objective to the PRA, so those two objectives for the key regulators—the FCA and the PRA—will make a difference. If my hon. Friend has some further suggestions for the future, I will certainly take a closer look at them.

The FCA’s consumer panel, which represents the interests of consumers, is well placed to communicate its views to the PRA, and in the other place the Opposition have called for a role for the FCA’s consumer panel. Following constructive debates in the other place, I am pleased that the Government have been able to include amendment 156, which delivers the Government’s commitment to ensure that the FCA’s consumer panel can provide its views to the PRA effectively. This was warmly welcomed on both sides in the other place and by the chair of the consumer panel.

The amendments will simplify day-to-day operations for building societies, other banks and all the other entities that I have mentioned. They will enable banks and other institutions to compete on a more level playing field and improve things as suggested in the Bill and by the commission and others. I commend them to the House.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I will develop my arguments in a moment, but I give notice that at the appropriate stage we will seek to divide the House on both of the amendments that we have tabled in this group.

I shall start with the payments system regulator, because I was somewhat surprised by the number of representations on the Bill from the industry, even at this late stage, including on the payments system regulator. The Minister has responded to interventions on that point, but I hope that, when he has the opportunity to respond later, he will address some of the questions raised by the industry, such as the concerns expressed by VocaLink. Although it has said that it is broadly supportive of the regulator and welcomes the change in the Government’s position, it is none the less very keen to ensure that there is no planning blight—a gap between the point at which the legislation becomes law and the time at which the system would be fully operational.

We have also had representations from other sectors of the industry, including Visa and MasterCard, on the need for a level playing field and ensuring appropriate and clear definitions of which payment systems come under the regulator, taking into account the broad range of players that facilitate payments for consumers and businesses. Further representations have been made about the need to look in detail at the whole system and the challenges of establishing the PSR, creating the right skill set and ensuring that it operates correctly. The work load of the regulator will also need to be taken into account as part of its remit.

The Minister said that he believed that the FCA had the resources to ensure that the system will be set up on time and will make progress as planned. I contrast that to the approach on payday lending, and I shall move on now to considering that issue.

At the outset, I must say that we welcome the Government’s U-turn on the issue of capping the costs of the controversial payday loans. [Interruption.] I hear the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) saying that that was not a U-turn. I gently remind him that the Government have repeatedly refused demands to deal with legal loan sharks. They now appear to have been dragged, kicking and screaming to their current position as a result of pressure from Labour and countless other campaigners, including many of my hon. Friends in the Chamber today who will no doubt wish to speak.

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[Sajid Javid]

There is already the tightest possible time scale. In his letter today Martin Wheatley of the FCA says that the industry is already working on this. He states:

“If the industry cannot overcome the obstacles, and we are best placed to bring about data-sharing we will not hesitate to act.”

The chief executive of the FCA and the Government understand the importance of this. We can all agree on its importance and the need to take action quickly. I do not consider it necessary to pass any legislation as action is already being taken.

[Cathy Jamieson]

To follow up the point from my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), it would the help the House to know whether the Minister has had discussions on a time scale.

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[Sajid Javid]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. As she will have noted from the letter I just quoted from Martin Wheatley, one of the concerns about a conservative cap is that it would be open to much greater legal risk. It would serve nobody in this House if there was some kind of legal challenge to a cap and how it works if the process has not been followed properly and if some people believe that the FCA has not followed its own rules, particularly on the time for consultation. Had the hon. Lady been here at the start of the debate, she might have heard that the Competition Commission’s investigation into payday lending, which is already under a tighter timetable than it usually has—it is normally around two years, but it has agreed to make that 18 months—will report in November next year. I think that everyone would agree that it is very important that the FCA takes into account the results of that investigation.

[Cathy Jamieson]

The Minister might have already answered this, but what specific legal risk has he identified in relation to the cap being introduced sooner rather than later?

[Sajid Javid]

I refer the hon. Lady again to the letter from Martin Wheatley, which states that the FCA

“would be forced to set the cap at a more conservative level (that is, higher) to reflect the inherent legal risks.”

I believe that she has a copy of the letter.

I will finish by answering an important point the shadow Minister made about the possibility that lenders from elsewhere in the European economic area will be able to passport their services and avoid UK legislation. She is entirely right to make that analysis, because that is indeed possible under the EU commerce directive and the single market in financial services. There are mitigations, although the situation is not ideal. Under the EU consumer credit directive, there is not a cap but there are certain rules that all lenders within the EU need to follow. Of course, there is nothing to prevent the UK regulator from contacting the comparable authority in another EU-based country to see whether there is any way in which pressure can be put on indirectly through the two bodies working together.

Lords amendment 63 agreed to.

Lords amendments 1 to 40; 42 to 62 and 64 to 154 agreed to, with Commons financial privileges waived in respect of Lords amendments 35, 37, 40, 149 and 150.

Before Clause 13

Duty of FCA to make rules restricting charges for high-cost short-term credit

Amendment (a) proposed to Lords amendment 155.—(Cathy Jamieson.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Cathy Jamieson

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

With the Government now in chaos over the banking Bill, with one U-turn following another, does the Minister agree that Labour was right all along to insist on a tougher licensing regime for senior bankers? Why were the Government so keen to resist Labour’s amendments, only to be defeated?

[Sajid Javid]

I have to say that I do not recognise the description that the hon. Lady has attached to the banking Bill. When she refers to Labour being right all along on banking regulation, perhaps she is referring to the changes that Labour made 13 years ago, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), then shadow Chancellor, described at the time as “a field day” for “spivs and crooks”.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Cathy Jamieson

Tuesday 10th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The best way to get more British people into British jobs is to ensure they have the skills to do those jobs. That is exactly what the Government are focused on.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

Families up and down the UK who are struggling with the cost of living simply will not recognise the rosy picture that the Minister is painting. Is the reality not shown in a recent report from the Child Poverty Action Group and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which states that changes brought in by this Government mean that families on low wages now have less than they need for a minimum acceptable living standard? That failure is on this Minister’s watch. Is it a record he is proud of?

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Sajid Javid and Cathy Jamieson

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman. He has put his position firmly on the record in exactly the way I would anticipate, because I know from the work that he has done on the Scottish Affairs Committee and elsewhere that he takes this issue extremely seriously and is not slow to make points that are often not entirely in line with his Government colleagues if he feels that that is the right thing to do. His comments are very important.

I want to finish by probing the Minister further to see where the Government intend to go with this. Although representations have been made, the Government have not committed to anything other than looking at the rates for this year and the year ahead. It is unclear whether they intend to address any anomalies and conduct further work—perhaps building on various independent reports and the work of the Transport Committee—in order to consider the issue in more detail.

Those who tabled the amendments will not be surprised to hear—I suspect they expected me to say this—that we will not support them. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about how we might usefully take this issue forward, not just for the benefit of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, which are very important, but for the benefit of the various regions and areas of England where hon. Members are making a case on behalf of their constituents.

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid)]

I thank all hon. Members who have taken part in this energetic debate, which has aroused strong passions in some parties.

Clause 183 sets the air passenger duty rates for 2013-14. These rates were first announced at Budget 2012 and took effect from 1 April 2013. The rates have increased by inflation only. Because of rounding, band A has remained the same, so about 80% of passengers have seen no cash-terms increase in the rates they pay.

Clause 184 gives Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs the power to require payments on account in relation to the APD annual accounting scheme, which was introduced to minimise administrative burdens for the extension of APD to business jets and will improve the fairness of the tax overall. The clause also updates the list of territories in band B of APD to include the new nation of South Sudan.

It is important to recognise the need for the aviation sector to make a fair contribution to the public finances. I remind hon. Members that no tax is levied on the fuel used in international and almost all domestic flights. Moreover, no VAT is levied on international flights and, unlike many other countries, the UK does not charge VAT on domestic flights.

It was in recognition of the fact that aviation was under-taxed compared with other sectors of the economy that APD was first introduced in 1994. It was introduced purely as a revenue-raising tax and it remains a vital revenue-raiser today. However, despite the challenge of the budget deficit that we inherited, this Government have limited increases in APD to inflation only in the period since 2010-11. During this period, rates have increased by only £1 for the vast majority of passengers. Furthermore, recognising the sector’s need to plan ahead, we have provided greater clarity on future rates. Budget 2013 set out that the rates for 2014 and 2015 will rise in line with inflation only. The real burden of APD will remain unchanged for a further year.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Sajid Javid and Cathy Jamieson

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

That is right. If we can deal with worklessness, we can help deal with poverty. In the past two years, 1.2 million private sector jobs have been created—more than were created on a net basis by the previous Government over 10 years.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

Last month, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation said that more than 6.1 million people in poverty are in working households. Does the Minister believe that a real-terms cut to in-work support for the lowest paid helps to tackle child poverty and will he agree to publish a child poverty impact assessment alongside the Bill on benefits uprating?

[Sajid Javid]

As I have said, we will not take any lectures from the Opposition on child poverty. I used the previous Government’s figures. She talks about workless households, but they increased by 200,000 during Labour’s last term in power and I believe that the policies the Government have in place to deal with the root causes of poverty are the right ones.

Public Service Pensions Bill

Debate between Sajid Javid and Cathy Jamieson

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson]

The reason why we tabled the amendment is important. Notwithstanding the Minister’s comments on what the Cabinet Secretary for Finance said, concern has been expressed by the trade unions that the ability to make some of the regulations relating to the local government pension scheme in Scotland might change the relationship that had previously existed. We want to ensure that the existing practice is in the Bill and that there would be no change. That is what the amendment seeks to do.

[Sajid Javid]

I respect the hon. Lady’s intentions, but for the reasons that I set out, I do not believe the amendment is necessary. The situation as it stands is quite clear.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the Minister for giving way once again. In all the correspondence that has gone back and forth between the Scottish Government and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, did the Scottish Government at any stage ask for any amendments to be made to the Bill, either to clarify it or to give them further flexibility?

[Sajid Javid]

I have not seen all that correspondence, but to my knowledge the Scottish Government have not asked for any such amendments.

On amendment 12, I welcome the opportunity to reaffirm the Government’s commitment to the defined benefit structure of the new schemes. I would hate to think that the hon. Member for Nottingham East is unaware of the 85,000 or so public service workers who are already members of the current career average schemes. His amendment, which he says is designed to reassure public service workers about the nature of their pensions, refers only to final salary schemes. I can reassure all public sector workers, including those currently in career average schemes, that the Government are fully committed to implementing the defined benefit schemes that have been negotiated. I assure the House, just as I assured the Committee, that the Government have no intention of replacing these defined benefit schemes with different types of scheme designs.

There is no secret plot here. We have spent a long time in discussions with trade unions and member representatives to get where we are today. It would be foolhardy to throw away 18 months of work and do something entirely different. We do not intend to move away from defined benefit schemes in public services. Defined contribution schemes would not be the right kind of pension provision for many public servants.

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[Sajid Javid]

No, I do not. The Scottish Government have had plenty of time to look at the proposals, which originated with Lord Hutton’s report. They may feel that they should have acted earlier, but they clearly had control over that.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I heard the Minister say that the Scottish Government had not made any formal request to change the time scale, but the Finance Secretary referred to that in his speech in the Scottish Parliament when he indicated that he was not bringing forward a legislative consent motion. If the Scottish Government were to make such a formal approach, would the Minister, even at this late stage, be willing to consider amendments once the Bill moves elsewhere?

Small Charitable Donations Bill

Debate between Sajid Javid and Cathy Jamieson

Monday 26th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I believe that they fit together, and I hope that the purpose of the Government amendments will become clear.

Concerns were raised that the eligibility criteria in the Bill were too restrictive, that too many charities that did not already claim gift aid would be put off the scheme because it would take too long to become eligible, and that some short-lived charities would never reach eligibility. Balanced against those concerns is the fact that the Government have always been concerned to protect the scheme against fraud. I have looked again at where the balance lies between accessing the scheme and protecting it from people who would try to exploit and abuse it, and I have concluded that we can reduce the eligibility period to two years without undermining the integrity of the scheme. Eligibility for the scheme is defined by reference to successful gift aid claims made by a charity in the past, and I now propose that the minimum period should be set at two years.

I shall explain in more detail what our amendments will do. Four factors will determine the eligibility of a charity or community amateur sports club for the scheme, as set out in clause 2. The first is the start-up period—the number of complete tax years for which a charity must have been established before it becomes eligible for the scheme. We are reducing that period from three years to two years, so a charity or CASC will now be able to access the scheme a year earlier than was originally set out. The second and third elements are that a charity has to have made claims in two of the previous four years, and that there is a gap of no more than two complete tax years between the claims. The amendments will ensure that HMRC is guaranteed to see a minimum level of claiming activity by the charity or CASC in question, so that it can get to know that organisation and understand its ability to claim gift aid correctly.

The fourth element is the impact of a penalty on eligibility. If a charity receives a penalty, it will be excluded from the scheme for the tax year in which it makes the claim and the following tax year. Originally, the charity would have been excluded for the following two years, but amendment 26 means that the exclusion will be for only one year following the year of the claim.

That all adds up to a significantly more accessible scheme for new charities that have not claimed gift aid before, but we do not know exactly how the scheme will operate in practice. As I have said, we will review it after three years, when we might find that fraud rates are much higher or much lower than expected, so it is sensible to build flexibility into the Bill to amend the eligibility criteria in future. Many charities have asked the Government to do that. That power will enable us to vary the elements of the eligibility criteria up or down, depending on the evidence that we see on how the scheme operates and its susceptibility to fraud.

Those four elements interact with each other, and with the matching criteria, to provide safeguards for the scheme. We want to build the maximum flexibility into the Bill by allowing each of those periods to be reduced, increased, removed or reinstated. Any use of that power would be through the affirmative procedure, so it would be consulted on and subject to debate in the House. However, we do not want flexibility to undermine the integrity of the scheme or its important link with gift aid, so the requirement for a charity to make a minimum number of gift aid claims over a set number of years will always remain.

I now turn to the last set of amendments in this group. Since the Public Bill Committee, we have reassessed the distribution of powers to make secondary legislation in the Bill, some of which are conferred on the Treasury and some on HMRC. Broadly speaking, a power that changes the nature of the scheme in some way should be exercised by the Treasury. A power given to HMRC should be to allow the collection and management functions to be carried out correctly. The powers in the Bill are currently inconsistent with that approach, so we are introducing amendments 28 and 29 to change the powers in clauses 7 and 8. Those relate to running charitable activities in a community building and the definition of a community building. The powers are currently assigned to HMRC, but we now think it would be more appropriate to assign them to the Treasury. That is because they could be used to make significant changes to what is in or outside the scope of the rules. I hope that that helps explain why we have tabled those amendments.

I come now to my conclusion, Mr Deputy Speaker. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] The conclusion is very popular. I do not consider that there is any need for statutory reviews of the scheme at 24 months, and neither is there a need to require HMRC to publish certain data. There will be a full review of the scheme after three years, and HMRC will be publishing what data it has three times a year. New clauses 1 and 2, and amendment 21, would be wasteful and would require duplication of resource for no good reason. I therefore ask the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun not to press those to a Division, just as I ask other hon. Members not to press new clause 3, amendments 32 and 33, and amendments 8 to 16.

I hope that hon. Members are comforted by the Government amendments that will reduce the three-year eligibility rules to two years. I am introducing a set of amendments that do what many charities and hon. Members have asked us to do, which is reduce the barriers to entry for this scheme and cut the eligibility period. I accept that some hon. Members wanted me to go further, but that would leave the scheme too exposed to fraud. These amendments represent an important concession by the Government, and I call on hon. Members from both sides of the House to support them. I am also introducing two technical amendments, Nos. 28 and 29. I commend the Government amendments to the House.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I will not take up much time. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] It is always great to be popular. The Minister has gone some way towards addressing the concerns we raised in the Public Bill Committee, but I feel it is important that we press new clause 1 to a Division.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

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[Sajid Javid]

We have had a constructive and lively debate so far. I welcome the comments of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and, in particular, her decision not to press her amendments. I also welcome the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) and his decision not to press his amendment. He has recognised that Government amendment 23 will reduce the matching rate by 10%, which is even more generous than the reduction proposed in his amendment. I cannot promise him that this generosity will continue into next week—we will have to wait and see what happens then—but he does tempt me.

I will say a few words about why the Government have brought forward these amendments. Although some hon. Members wanted to remove the matching rate altogether in Committee, I understand that they accept that the Government have listened and that a 10% rate is much more generous than what was offered when the Bill was first introduced.

Let me say explain why we have this matching provision. HMRC sees even the 10% rate as an act against gift aid fraud. Unfortunately, there are unscrupulous individuals who want to misuse charitable tax reliefs. They defraud the taxpayer and undermine the good name of the charitable sector, so we must be in a position to protect the taxpayer and the charitable sector. The lack of records also means that HMRC would have less evidence when a charity is claiming correctly under the scheme if there was no kind of matching principle. Gift aid is the closest proxy we can use to help ensure compliance under the new scheme, and the matching requirements will significantly increase protection against fraud and abuse.

Government amendment 30 introduces a wide-ranging power that will allow us to reduce or increase the matching rate. It will allow us to remove the matching provision entirely or reinstate it at a later date if it is removed. Removing the matching provisions altogether would remove the need for charities to claim a set proportion of their small donations claim in gift aid in that year. Even so, charities would always need to claim some gift aid in each year to ensure that they can claim under the scheme. That is because of the provision in clause 1(1)(b). That helps to retain the important link between this scheme and gift aid.

Any use of that power would be through the draft affirmative procedure, so it would be consulted on and subject to a debate in this House. That power means that the matching rule is fully flexible. We have no intention of using the power in the near future, but it will be there if we need it. It is something that many charities have asked us to introduce, so I am pleased that we have been able to do so. I believe that the Government’s approach is better than some of the other amendments that have been tabled, as has been recognised in the comments we have heard.

We debated the community buildings rules in some detail in Committee so, unless hon. Members have questions, I do not propose to go into much detail now, but I would like to remind Members that the purpose of those rules is to recognise that not all charities are structured in the same way. There are charities that, because of the way they were set up or for other reasons, effectively operate as branches of a master charity. We want to ensure that the proposals are as fair as possible and that branches of a bigger charity are effectively treated as individual charities and have their own £5,000 limit. The purpose of the community buildings rules was not to give more than £5,000 by allowing charities to have multiple claims, and I believe that the changes we are making to the Bill will achieve that effectively.

I again warmly welcome the support the House has shown for the Government amendments and thank the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun for looking at them carefully and not pressing her amendments. I commend amendments 23 and 30 to the House.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 4, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: 23, page 2, line 1, leave out ‘double’ and insert ‘10 times’—(Sajid Javid.).

This amendment changes the gift aid “matching” rate from 2:1 to 10:1. In other words, to make a claim in respect of £5,000 of small donations, a charity would need to make successful gift aid claims in respect of £500 of donations, rather than £2,500.

Clause 2

Meaning of “eligible charity”

Amendments made: 24, page 2, line 12, leave out ‘3 of the previous 7’ and insert ‘2 of the previous 4’.

This amendment, and amendments 25 to 27, change the criteria for determining a charity’s eligibility for the small donations scheme. Under this amendment, the charity must have made successful gift aid claims in 2 out of the previous 4 tax years, rather than 3 out of the previous 7.

Amendment 25, page 2, line 16, leave out ‘3’ and insert ‘2’.

Under clause 2(2), earlier gift aid claims are ignored for the purpose of the eligibility rules where a charity doesn’t claim for 3 consecutive tax years. This amendment reduces that period to 2 consecutive tax years.

Amendment 26, page 2, line 22, leave out ‘2 tax years’ and insert ‘tax year’.

This amendment reduces the period for which a charity is not eligible where a penalty is imposed on the charity. Under the amendment, the period will be the tax year the claim was made and the next tax year (rather than that year and the next 2 tax years).

Amendment 27, page 2, line 26, leave out ‘3’ and insert ‘2’.—(Sajid Javid.)

This amendment reduces the “start-up period” for a charity to the first period of 2 (rather than 3) consecutive tax years during which it is at all times a charity.

Clause 7

Meaning of “running charitable activities in a community building” etc

Amendment made: 28, page 5, line 24, leave out ‘HMRC’ and insert ‘The Treasury’.—(Sajid Javid.)

This amendment makes the Treasury, rather than HMRC, responsible for making orders under clause 7(3).

Clause 8

Meaning of “community building”

Amendment made: 29, page 6, line 4, leave out ‘HMRC’ and insert ‘The Treasury’.—(Sajid Javid.)

This amendment makes the Treasury, rather than HMRC, responsible for making orders under clause 8(5).

Clause 14

Power to alter specified amount etc

Amendments made: 30, page 11, line 5, at end insert—

‘(1A) The Treasury may by order amend this Act for the purpose of—

(a) amending the gift aid matching rule;

(b) abolishing that rule;

(c) reinstating that rule (if previously abolished), with or without amendment.

(1B) In subsection (1A) “the gift aid matching rule” means the rule that limits the amount of top-up payments to which a charity is entitled by reference to the amount of gifts made to the charity in respect of which it has made successful gift aid exemption claims.’.

This amendment gives the Treasury power by order to amend the gift aid matching rule (see clause 1(3), (4)(a) and (5)), to abolish the rule or to reinstate it. The order would be made by statutory instrument subject to draft affirmative procedure in this House (clause 17).

Amendment 31, page 11, line 5, at end insert—

‘(1C) The Treasury may by order amend section 2 (meaning of “eligible charity”).

(1D) Section 2, as amended by an order under subsection (1C), must as a minimum include a condition requiring the making of a successful gift aid exemption claim in a previous tax year.’.—(Sajid Javid.)

This amendment gives the Treasury power by order to alter the eligibility rules in clause 2. But the altered rules must include a condition requiring the making of previous gift aid claims. The order would be made by statutory instrument subject to draft affirmative procedure in this House (clause 17).

Schedule 1

Meaning of “small donation”: conditions

--- Later in debate ---

[Cathy Jamieson]

Many of us who served on the Bill Committee or listened to the Second Reading debate and have heard the representations made by the charitable sector have a degree of sympathy with the comments made by the hon. Members for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) and the for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), particularly in relation to ensuring that the Bill does not become out of date before it gets under way.

The hon. Lady made some powerful arguments. Indeed, her case is reflected in our amendment 22, which relates to some of the difficulties involved in getting information from those who have made donations by means other than cheques, such as JustTextGiving, or—this issue was raised a number of times in Committee—if they have placed a cheque on a plate or in a collection box at an event such as a funeral.

We had hoped that the Minister would give an indication—he may well do so—that he would at least be minded to consider this proposal at some point in the future. I understand that there may be technical reasons against that at present and that the Cabinet Office is engaged in ongoing work on the different methods of making donations and on following up on gift aid. Although I support the principles of amendment 34 and want action to be taken—that is why we have tabled our own amendment on the issue—I understand that there may be some difficulties. It would be odd, however, if the Minister said that at no point would he consider moving in the direction suggested, particularly when the Cabinet Office is engaged in those schemes.

I hope that the Minister will be able to comfort us by saying that he will consider the proposal at some stage. I also hope that the order-making powers that the Government will adopt under the Bill could, if necessary, be utilised at some stage to extend the way in which donations can be made. It seemed odd during Committee that, while someone can donate using whatever currency they choose, donations by electronic means do not count.

I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. I hope that he will take account of the persuasive case that has been made and that he will take a further look at the proposals in the amendments tabled by the hon. Lady and in my amendment 22.

[Sajid Javid]

I thank the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) for her comments, and I also thank the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) and my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) for their contributions. I will try to respond to their points, which they made very well.

The amendments would do slightly different things, but, in general, they all seek to broaden the gift aid small donations scheme to include not only cash donations but donations in the form of electronic payments. Amendment 2 seeks to do that by introducing a power to allow the Treasury, by order, to broaden the scheme, whereas amendment 22 and the group of amendments 34 to 37 seek to expand the scope of the scheme immediately. I thank my hon. Friend for his original amendment on the issue and for all his contributions on this particular topic in Committee.

It might be worth reminding Members of the scheme’s primary objective, which is to provide a gift aid-style top-up payment when it is difficult or unduly burdensome to collect a gift aid declaration from the donor. The most obvious examples are when a charity is making a street collection or when a religious group is passing around a collection plate during a service. In such situations it would be difficult to ask everybody who makes a contribution to fill out a gift aid declaration form. They would have to stop, confirm they were a UK taxpayer and then fill in a form with their name, address and other details. I think we would all agree that that would be unrealistic for a donation of just a few pounds. As a result, charities are missing out on potential gift aid on such donations. That is exactly why the gift aid small donations scheme is being introduced—that is what it is designed to tackle. It will fill the gap in gift aid for donations for which it is difficult or unduly burdensome to collect the necessary paperwork.

Giving by using digital technology means that the donor is already providing some or all of their details to the charity. If any extra information is needed to make a gift aid declaration, it will be relatively small. When a charity has an ongoing relationship with a donor, they should use gift aid, if at all possible. Compared with a bucket collection on a busy street, it is considerably less burdensome to ask someone to provide their details if they are donating through a website or a text message. It is easy to use gift aid when making a donation through a website and it is also possible to attach gift aid donations to a text message.

I want to sound a note of caution about complexity. Text messages and internet donations can be made from anywhere in the world, but I hope Members will agree that the UK Government should not make a top-up payment on donations made from outside the UK unless there is firm evidence that the donor is a UK taxpayer or resident. Introducing other forms of giving to the small donations scheme would make it more complicated. In order to make a top-up payment on UK donations only, charities would need to keep records of the donation’s origin. That is comparatively straightforward when rattling a tin on a UK high street, but it would become much more burdensome, if not impossible, for some charities if donations were made through texts and website visits from around the world.

Hon. Members mentioned the possibility of making the gift aid system easier via text giving. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun will be aware that the Government are in discussions with a number of charities and their representative organisations about how we can do just that. The discussions are going very well and have been constructive. The Government are open to the possibility that, eventually, we might have to pass legislation to make the gift aid system easier and we are working with charities to try to achieve that.

It is possible that new forms of electronic giving will be developed in the future that are completely anonymous. Indeed, my hon. Friend mentioned the possibility of using Oyster cards, which are anonymous. It is very early at this stage, however, to understand what technology might come along in a few years’ time, so it would be difficult to set out the circumstances in which the power he proposed could be used. Without complete knowledge of Oyster cards or other developing technologies for giving, it is difficult to know whether they would fall under the scheme’s scope and rationale. It is, therefore, possible that the power could never be used.

I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns and he has made some important points, so I want a review of the forms of giving to be undertaken when we review the scheme after its first three years. If people are able to make completely anonymous electronic donations, we shall look again at whether the scope of the scheme should be extended. That is the Government’s commitment.

It is harder for charities to collect gift aid declarations in the street or at a religious meeting than through other channels. That is why the focus of the scheme is on cash donations. I accept that things may change, so I am committing the Government to review the situation after three years. I therefore ask hon. Members not to press their amendments to a Division.

Beer Duty Escalator

Debate between Sajid Javid and Cathy Jamieson

Thursday 1st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, but I think he will accept that the Government need to raise taxes to pay for public services in one way or another. However, we continue to keep all taxes and duties under review, including the ones that have been discussed today, and we regularly monitor alcohol duties to ensure that we are on top of their impact on the industry and consumers.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I hear what the Minister says about keeping matters under review, but in my experience that sometimes means keeping something on a shelf. Is it not time to dust down some of that information and hold a review that reaches a conclusion?

[Sajid Javid]

I assure the hon. Lady that, as an incoming Minister who is new to this portfolio, I plan to keep nothing on the shelf. I will be looking at everything, which includes all duties and taxes for which I have responsibility. That would be a sensible thing for any Minister to do.

Let me say a word about the importance that the Government attach to pubs and brewers in the wider economy. The sad truth is that pubs have been closing for many years, and that decline has been influenced by many factors, not just alcohol duty. Lifestyles and consumer tastes are changing and individuals have increased choice in their leisure activities. Those things have an impact, and those factors—not just alcohol duty— determine the size of the pub sector. The number of pubs continued to decline in the early 2000s, despite relatively flat alcohol duties in real terms. The Government are rightly doing a lot to support pubs and brewers, and those businesses will benefit from many decisions taken in the tax system and elsewhere.

Let me give a couple of examples. Changes to business rates mean that small pubs can benefit from small business rates relief, or rural rates relief. The Government have extended the small business rates relief holiday until March 2012. We have also legislated to allow local authorities to give grant discounts to businesses, including pubs and brewers, as appropriate.

Other wider actions will also benefit the pubs and brewing industry, and the cut in corporation tax from 26% to 22% by April 2014 will help brewers. Small businesses such as pubs benefit from the small profits rate, which has fallen from 21% to 20%. The change in machine gaming taxation will affect the majority of pubs. From February 2013, machine games duty will replace the current system of taxation on gaming machines, and more than 70% of pubs will benefit from that move to MGD through reduced tax liabilities.

My hon. Friends the Members for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) and for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) mentioned small breweries’ relief, which helps small brewers up and down the country, and that is vital to our economy. The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) mentioned entrepreneurship. The Government have supported entrepreneurship by lowering beer duty for small producers, and helping small brewers invest and grow. There were 394 small breweries in 2002 when that relief was introduced, and today there are more than 730. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) mentioned the Live Music Act 2012, which came into force on 1 October and is already making it easier for pubs to play live music. The Government have launched a £90 million support programme to help eligible community organisations take on the community ownership and management of assets that are important to them, including pubs.

A number of hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) and my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), mentioned the Government alcohol strategy. Alcohol drunk in moderation can have a positive effect on the well-being of adults, but excessive consumption has negative consequences on both individuals and wider society. The Government published their alcohol strategy earlier this year, which includes plans for minimum unit pricing. Setting a floor price for alcohol will prevent heavily discounted alcohol from being sold in supermarkets and off licences. Raising the price of cheap alcohol will help tackle excessive alcohol consumption, and I hope that pubs will benefit from minimum unit pricing once the demand for cheap alcohol in the off-trade has been tackled.

The Government recognise the importance of pubs and brewers to their local communities and the wider economy. We have done much to try and support that industry—I have given a few examples, which I hope was helpful—and it makes sense for us to keep looking at other ways to continue that support.

May I thank again those who sponsored the debate and all hon. Members who took part, as well as all those who signed the public petition? In conclusion, I will respond to a comment that was made by the mover of the motion, my hon. Friend the Member for Burton at the start of the debate. If I remember his words correctly, he challenged me to become known as “the Minister who saved the great British pub.” I am very tempted, although I would have to compete for that honour with the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis), who has responsibility for pubs. I am sure, however, that we can work well together and perhaps jointly take that title.

I assure all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate that I have been in listening mode. This debate has been valuable and showed just how important debates tabled by the Backbench Business Committee can be. I will take on board a lot of messages from the debate, and ensure that the Government do even more to help the pubs and the brewing industry.