Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Debate between Roger Gale and Alexander Stafford

Consideration of Lords amendments
Monday 18th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale)]

Order. I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that that is not even a nice try. I call Alexander Stafford.

[Alexander Stafford]

It is a pleasure to speak in this very important debate, which is about defeating these awful amendments from the House of Lords and then getting the Bill through Parliament, the flights off to Rwanda and the wheels down in Kigali. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) claimed that Labour supported the Lords amendments not in order to wreck the Bill, but to help it along and make it better. Yet we also heard from the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss), speaking from the SNP Front Bench, that they want to upset the Bill. These are clearly wrecking amendments—there are no ifs or buts about it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), in his rejection of Lords amendment 1, made clear the dangerous precedent it would set—not just for this Bill but for all Bills—for the supremacy and primacy of this House, and that is the first thing we need to reflect on properly. This Parliament is sovereign. The House of Commons is sovereign. By taking that sovereignty away from us, we upset everything. Lords amendment 1 talks about compliance with the rule of law. How can it be against the rule of law when the democratically elected body of this House wants something, and the free and independent sovereign country of Rwanda wants something? By rejecting the amendment, we will enhance our sovereignty and the Bill.

It is clear that the Bill is needed, but why is it so needed and why is it essential that we stop these wrecking amendments? For far too long we have had far too many illegal immigrants coming into our country. Those illegal immigrants, who are jumping the queue by going outside the rules and regulations on how they should come into our country, are making it harder and harder for people in this country. The Bill is necessary, needed and proportionate. Illegal immigrants are putting a huge strain on public services. They are putting a huge strain on the things that everyday people use: doctors, GP services, schools. The human cost of people being killed as they travel across the channel needs to stop. The financial cost to residents in Rother Valley and across our areas needs to be curtailed. The amendments try to wreck the Bill, and that is why we need to double down.

For some reason, we have had a lot of debate about how many people will go to Rwanda. That is clearly out of the scope of the Bill, but many Opposition Members mentioned it. We have heard estimates of 150 or a handful. I sincerely hope that the number will be in the thousands and tens of thousands, to get rid of the backlog and stop the illegal immigrants coming here. Fundamentally, the point of the Bill is to stop illegal immigrants coming here. Any attempt to wreck it is an open-door policy to let human traffickers traffic people illegally into our country and upset our local communities. Ultimately, more people will die if the Bill does not pass, because of the loss of life in the channel.

No one has really talked about the Bill’s deterrent factor. A similar process worked in Australia, where illegal immigration rapidly decreased due to the deterrent effect, and it is important that we reflect on that. If we stop people coming here in the first place, we will save lives and save money, so it is so important that we get the Bill through.

Environmental, Social and Governance Developments

Debate between Roger Gale and Alexander Stafford

Monday 23rd October 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale)]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is aware, but one of the arcane practices is that because the Adjournment debate started before 10 o’clock, we had to move the motion again at 10. The hon. Gentleman has the Floor.

[Alexander Stafford]

Thank you for that guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker, and for explaining some of the wonderful aspects of this House.

I ask the Minister whether he will ensure that investors have a framework to separate the sustainable from the spurious, and whether he will take this chance to outline the full timetable for the taxonomy. He will have plenty of time to do so, as we have more time for this Adjournment debate. I look forward to a full and detailed timeline of when we will get this taxonomy. I am willing for him to intervene now if he so wishes. Clearly he does not.

Perhaps another, less discussed difficulty facing ESG is imbalance. The heavy focus has been on environmental considerations as being the most important, often at the cost of social and governance factors. Let me refer to one recent example of the consequences of failing to take that holistic approach. Dame Alison Rose is clearly a champion for socially sustainable business, particularly around gender equality. She is a torchbearer for women in business, having smashed the glass ceiling to become the first woman to lead a major UK bank. However, despite her very strong credentials in social sustainability and the progressive environmental policy of NatWest Group as a whole, under her leadership there was a clear failure in governance when discussing a customer’s private banking details with a journalist—I think that we all know the gentleman I am referring to.

I am sure that all Members will agree that it is right that Dame Alison resigned over that abject failure of governance, but I also know that many will join me in expressing our disappointment that the further empowering of women in business and entrepreneurship will suffer because of that failure of governance. Excelling in one area does not absolve someone from indiscretions in others. The E, S and G cannot and should not be separated; a failure in one is a failure in them all. Clearer metrics and frameworks, both within each strand of ESG and encompassing all three elements, will allow for better reporting and therefore better understanding for investors and companies. That will, in turn, return the trust that ESG has been lacking.

It is easy to oversimplify the true impact of more data and disclosures, and we cannot ignore the practical implications of such policies, particularly on smaller businesses and individual investors. Since the turn of the millennium there has been a 647% increase in ESG regulations, alongside miles of other red tape in all shapes and sizes. The disclosure burden on investors and businesses is bigger than at any previous point, leading to whole sectors and teams devoted to auditing every aspect of a business. The EU’s own research indicates that its disclosure requirements will cost large firms upwards of €100,000 a year in paperwork alone.

Likewise, the UK green taxonomy, when it is eventually published, will join about 30 other environmentally focused taxonomies across the globe, each needing different types of disclosures. Large companies may be able to absorb that, but it is a potentially lethal issue for small and medium-sized enterprises, which make up 99% of British businesses and have a far more limited staffing and budgetary ability to process those types of disclosures. In pushing for more comprehensive reporting frameworks, we should not bury small businesses under piles of paperwork.

Over the course of my time chairing the all-party parliamentary group, I have been delighted to meet many small businesses that want to integrate ESG into their practices. Many of them, however, have expressed to me their nerves about how to keep up with a continually changing regulatory landscape, and the addition of further disclosures hangs like a dark cloud, so how do we achieve better ESG reporting without overburdening businesses and, perhaps more importantly for those businesses, why should they engage in this space? How do we make ESG work for businesses rather than making businesses work for ESG?

In this debate, I have mostly spoken about ESG as a risk management tool that investors can use as part of their normal investment analysis. There are, however, many upsides for both businesses and the UK as a whole. I have already outlined how a business might utilise ESG to increase efficiency or improve its workforce. For the UK as a whole, though, SMEs are the perfect vehicle for public policy objectives to be achieved without the need for public sector financing or burdensome legislation.

The all-party parliamentary group’s latest report—on women in business, to be published tomorrow—is perhaps a good example. It is a sad fact that women are still under-represented in business today. That is not only a social problem; it also represents a £250 billion gap in our economy. Luckily, as in other areas, the private sector is far ahead of policymakers here. Thanks to private firms and independent groups, the UK has one of the highest levels of female representation on boards in the world; it is beaten only by countries that have legislated to force companies to adhere to quotas. Top-down government can make serious strides, but the home straight will always require us to rely on great British businesses. We cannot let them down.

ESG adds value to business, but it cannot become a barrier. Many Members will, like me, have heard concerning reports about some companies, particularly those involved in defence, being excluded from access to investment and capital on ESG grounds. As the Government’s defence Command Paper points out, there is no contradiction between investing along ESG principles and the defence industry.

I have already spoken about the concerning anti-ESG movement, much of it stemming from the view that a movement for divestment in such contentious businesses is because of a political stance. Again, I argue that that is a mischaracterisation of ESG. Instead, and like the Government, I believe that ESG allows investors to factor in the environmental, social and governance impacts of these firms into their decision-making process and helps firms to take action that will result in better returns. These factors should not be unduly taken out of context for political reasons.

Governments need to create an environment where businesses can disclose problem areas without the fear of backlash, so long as they are responsible. Good investors can be a driving force behind companies cleaning up their acts. We must continue to ensure that all businesses have access to the capital they need from reputable, interested investors. We have seen continued protests as part of an environmental campaign, calling for businesses to divest away from oil and gas. But that would actually be detrimental to the world’s overall climate ambitions.

Once contentious industries such as oil and gas, defence, tobacco or alcohol can no longer rely on investment from large, public companies that are open and clear about their business ethos, they will most likely leverage finance from less savoury investors. It is in our interests to engage, not divest, and make sure that trusted investors retain a hand on the wheel of these industries, to steer them to a more sustainable and better future.

The issue is not just about a handful of industries. When faced with challenges that may bring public and investor backlash, all firms need to feel secure that they are able to disclose bad practices and work to rectify them, rather than quietly divesting of the malpractice. I will give one example: the International Labour Organisation estimates that there are nearly 50 million modern slaves across the world today. It is almost impossible, therefore, for any large company not to use modern slavery at some point in its supply chain. As much as 20% of worldwide cotton production stems from slave-labour—Members in the Chamber today could be wearing slave-manufactured clothing.

What should a responsible clothing business do if it discovers that it has been accidentally buying slavery-produced goods? Should it quietly switch suppliers and hope that the next one does not have the same problem, or should it work with the supply chain to end the practice of slavery? Divestment for fear of repercussions will not solve environmental, social or governance problems, and companies should not be penalised for bringing accidental wrongdoings to light.

Making ESG work for businesses requires that they should be able to show investors what they are doing to tackle poor business practices without fearing that they will be left without access to capital. The frameworks we build must include room for transitional sustainability improvements, allowing investors and companies to own up to their failings and work to improve them, rather than divesting and passing the problem along.

Having outlined why we should be encouraging ESG, what problems we face in doing so and how it can help business, investors and the UK as a whole, we must now ask what real action we can take to achieve this. I have in this debate referred consistently to frameworks or metrics, which will give certainty and clarity, but what form should they take? Any framework needs to be credible, useable and, importantly, international. What is more, we need to act quickly to ensure that the UK is the go-to place for ESG. Will the Minister be sure to look into speeding up the publication of frameworks and regulations designed to restore trust in ESG?

The importance of credibility in a framework was confirmed by the EU’s recent green taxonomy failures. As Members will know, the EU decided to include natural gas in its green taxonomy, effectively allowing any product using energy derived from fossil fuels to claim it was “green.” That is perhaps the most serious and egregious example of greenwashing, and it completely undermines any pretence that the EU’s taxonomy can be relied upon to build the trust that I have been so clear we need. Our own framework, and certainly our own green taxonomy, must not have the same problem. Can the Minister assure me that any framework will be science-led, and that ensuring trust will be a key consideration in the design of those frameworks? We may be delayed in our green taxonomy, so ours may not be the first, but let us make it the best. Let us learn from the mistakes made by other countries so that the UK is the gold standard.

Going further, if the UK is to be the ultimate home for ESG, we need to create metrics for ESG criteria that are currently unquantifiable. Much of the work that has already taken place has gone into fleshing out areas with existing data, but in order to ensure that greenwashing cannot happen across any element of ESG, we need to drive forward progress on creating standardised metrics for areas such as biodiversity, community impacts, management structures and so much more. To ensure that the UK is truly world-leading, will the Minister be sure to speak to his colleagues at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department for Work and Pensions to create cross-governmental taskforces that will be able to create those types of framework?

Usability is also vital. As I have mentioned, particularly in reference to SMEs, burdening investors and businesses with extra regulation should not be the objective of any Government, let alone a robust Conservative Government. Any framework must allow for companies to disclose failures and work hard to redeem themselves. Companies’ work to achieve better results should be what they are judged by, rather than their failures. To encourage businesses to use ESG to their advantage along the lines that I have described, and so that the UK can leverage the firepower provided by our booming private sector, will the Minister ensure that making the UK an ESG hub will not have negative impacts on businesses and investors? We must look after SMEs.

Today’s supply chains, employees and financial flows span the world. It is our duty as policymakers to help British businesses and investors benefit from being part of the global economy. When it comes to ESG, that will mean working with the frameworks of our international partners and using our Brexit freedoms to design a system that allows for international co-operation. The Government’s signal earlier this year that we will be adopting wholesale the international financial reporting standards created by the International Sustainability Standards Board is a great start and will ensure that we remain international players, but I want us to be international leaders, especially as the EU will continue to build its own full disclosure system. Can the Minister confirm that we will continue along this path whenever possible?

ESG is not going away, and the UK should not be concerned about or discouraging of it. I must again pay tribute to the Government for already being proactive in creating a welcome environment for ESG, of which I know the Chancellor is already a keen advocate, but if we are to become the global home for ESG, we must move faster and do ever more. I hope that this place sees many more debates on the topic, and that we continue to open lines of communication and inquiry on one of the fastest growing sectors across the UK. As a home for ESG, we have strong foundations, but before we can fully welcome ESG inside, we must make sure that the structure is solid, or it risks total collapse.