Ceramic and Brick Industries
Debate between Robert Flello and Anna Soubry(8 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise (Anna Soubry)
It is an absolute pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. May I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) on securing this excellent debate and everybody who has contributed to it? It is indeed a fascinating subject. Such is my interest in all the sectors in my brief—especially ceramics, because of the breadth and depth of the sector—I am getting to the stage now where I could bore for Britain on the different technologies and techniques and how exciting it is. Yes, it relies on many traditional methods. I am helpfully reminded that brick making is some 5,000 years old, but it pretty much has not changed over those years.
I always have to pay tribute to my excellent Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey), who, within his constituency has Morgan Advanced Ceramics—actually, this is a serious point. I quickly looked at its website, and when we see the astonishing high value products it makes, it is almost difficult to believe that they all fall within the wonderful broad category of ceramics, which, of course, includes clay pipes.
As I said, brick has been used by people for building for at least 5,000 years for good reason: it is a durable and it is energy efficient. It is to be commended and, if I may say, it should be used at every opportunity. The sector is very diverse, including electronics, aerospace, automotive and healthcare.
After a prolonged and painful restructuring in recent decades, some parts of the brick and ceramic sector have seen a revival in past years. Strong demand from house builders has meant that previously mothballed brick factories have reopened and substantial investment has been made in others, such as the Ibstock Brick Ltd facilities at Chesterton and Ibstock in Leicestershire. Unfortunately there is nobody here from Leicestershire, but that is an outstanding company. In ceramics there has been new investment in both technology and factories, with distinguished names such as Waterford, Wedgwood, Royal Doulton, Wade and Steelite leading the way.
In response to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth), I want to put the record straight. I do eat when I can—I enjoy eating, in fact. However, I think her point was in relation to the fact that in BIS, apparently, we do not use crockery that has been made in this country.
Anna Soubry
It is absolutely shameful—I could not agree more. When we last debated this issue, I have to confess that I did not know Steelite, which is a disgraceful admission from the Minister responsible for ceramics. By a happy chance, that very weekend I happened to be staying somewhere in Scotland—I will not name it—where they used Steelite. It is an outstanding ceramic because it is incredibly durable. It has many other qualities, too—it can be very fashionable and traditional—and I could go on. It has outstanding British quality and it has stamped on its back proudly that it is all made in Britain. I know that the industry has been keen to overcome some of the difficulties it has had. Frankly, we know that some companies have imported products and then, because they will slip them and perhaps finish them off, they then put “made in England” on them. Anyway, Steelite is made here in Britain and it is brilliant.
The business environment has been tough, and it still is tough for many parts of the sector, especially those businesses that are caught up in the supply chains for sectors such as steel. We all know the difficulties they have been suffering. However, we are getting the fundamentals of the economy right. By way of example, we are cutting corporation tax to 18% by 2020, which is important to support the sector and indeed all manufacturing. We are cutting red tape and investing £6.9 billion. Again, all of that is important, as is our work creating apprenticeships so that we keep our skills base up.
In relation to Stoke-on-Trent in particular, the Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire local enterprise partnership has achieved many things. For example, there was £159,000 for Keeling and Walker, Fairey Technical got £159,000, Hygan Products got £30,000 and Siak Transfers got another £10,000 to help them with new jobs and new investment, looking to the future. The Ceramic Valley enterprise zone along the A500 corridor was announced in the autumn statement to help the United Kingdom to compete with the growing technical ceramics sectors in the United States, Germany and Italy. The Government’s city deal with the LEP includes a flagship proposal for the UK’s first at-scale, low-carbon heat network system, which will support the region’s world famous advanced manufacturing and applied materials sectors, including ceramics.
I turn to the sometimes controversial—understandably so—EU emissions trading scheme and reform. We are a strong supporter of the EU ETS as a cornerstone of EU climate and energy policy. It can help industry decarbonise in a cost-effective way in the transition to the low-carbon economy we all want, but the United Kingdom Government believe that improvements to the EU ETS in phase 4 can help it function more effectively and target carbon leakage support at those sectors at greatest risk. What we do not want is for us to be exporting jobs and importing carbon, so we have to get that absolutely right.
We favour a tiered approach that would focus a limited supply of free allocation on those sectors that need it most. Our recent joint non-paper with France sets out a number of potential approaches to tiering. It is important to note that, at this stage, we do not favour any one particular approach. We acknowledge that parts of the ceramics industry are at risk of carbon leakage and we are engaging proactively with the ceramics industry to discuss its concerns. It is always a pleasure for me to meet with it.
We are keen to see more simplified procedures and a potential increase in scope for the small emitter opt-out and to ensure that innovation funding is available for industry. All of those measures can help installations in the ceramics sector. The really important point, which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills, who so ably represents her constituency, is that, like all sectors, this sector asks for nothing more than that level playing field. She is right that, as other hon. Members mentioned, it is only right and fair that, as a Government, we do or do not do stuff to ensure a level playing field. That is a proper and right ask to make.
Turning quickly to EII compensation and what we call the 2050 road maps, the industrial energy costs in this country are higher than in other European countries. We know that we face a genuine and serious challenge in our country, but in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey), who made a very good contribution, eligible ceramics companies can apply for compensation for the indirect costs of the renewables obligation and the small-scale feed-in tariffs scheme. We have been working closely with the British Ceramic Confederation and ceramics companies to help them to apply for that. We have worked closely with the sector to develop a 2050 road map to help it to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and increase its energy efficiency while remaining competitive. We all agree that we now need to see some real action to ensure that our energy costs are cheaper, in particular for the benefit of our manufacturing sector.
I know that MES for China is controversial and I am aware of the vote. The Government of course continue to listen, but we should not get overly hung up on market economy status. Russia has it and the Commission is still able to act to put on tariffs, for example, and so on. Of course, the Government continue to listen.
There were some excellent contributions from all hon. Members. My hon. Friends the Members for Cheadle (Mary Robinson) and for North Warwickshire mentioned Wienerberger, an excellent brick company. It does not just make traditional bricks, as the hon. Member for Motherwell—I have the wrong constituency again. I apologise.
Anonymity (Arrested Persons) Bill
Debate between Robert Flello and Anna Soubry(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
It is always a pleasure to see the Chairman of Ways and Means in the Chair.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) on introducing the Bill. I know all too well the pressures involved in choosing a suitable topic, and this Bill is worthy of the opportunity brought by being drawn in the ballot. I appreciate how much thought the hon. Lady has given to the matter. I am sure her heart sank when certain hon. Members entered the Chamber. The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) will forgive me for saying that seeing him walk in is always an interesting indication.
Many Members have mentioned or alluded to the tragic Joanna Yeates case, which happened over Christmas, and the media’s dreadful treatment of her landlord. The shameful way in which that man was portrayed in the press—from “weird-looking” to “strange”, and with questions raised about his sexuality, his teaching practices and even his hairstyle—should embarrass and shame our media.
The phenomenon is not new. Countless other examples spring immediately to mind—for example, the speculation, which I believe we heard again this morning, about a well-known actor and television presenter back in 2003, which has done untold damage to his career, despite the fact that no charges have ever been brought, or the American press treatment of Richard Jewell as a suspect in the 1996 Olympic park bombing, although in fact he was a hero on the day who saved countless lives through his actions.
As I think everyone listening to the debate will know, on 17 December 2010 Joanna Yeates left her place of work and joined her colleagues in a Bristol pub for a drink. On 20 December, Avon and Somerset police launched their first appeal for information about Joanna’s disappearance. It was around this time that the national media, perhaps because of the Christmas period, when there is generally considered to be little for the media to report, began to pay attention to the case. Over the next few days, it was given ever-increasing media attention, and more details emerged about Joanna’s final movements.
A key part of the case became a pizza that Joanna was seen buying in Tesco Express, but of which there was no trace in her flat, and the police used the media to ask the public whether they had seen anything relating to this. Joanna’s parents made a number of public appeals at this stage, believing that she had either gone missing or perhaps been abducted, and the media carried those appeals and contributed a huge amount to efforts to find Joanna safely. It is important to remember, as we discuss this Bill, that the media have traditionally played a huge role in such situations, and there are countless examples of missing people having been found as a result of information that has been obtained following appeals.
Tragically, on Christmas morning, a body was found in an area of north Somerset that was quickly confirmed to be that of Joanna. Over the next few days, the media concentrated on the reaction of the family and friends, before, on 29 December, the police interviewed Joanna’s landlord. He advised that he saw her leaving the flat with two people on the night that she was murdered. But the next day, Avon and Somerset police confirmed that a 65-year-old man had been arrested on suspicion of murder, and it was rapidly reported that this was her landlord.
At this stage the media turned their attention to what can be described only as a detailed character assassination of this man. Papers revelled in the nickname used by students at the college where he formerly taught, and a particular tabloid—I will not mention which one, but I think it will become apparent—ran a story entitled “Weird, posh, lewd, creepy”, in which it described him as “weird-looking” and ran quotes from a number of former pupils in which the overriding comment seemed intent on painting a very negative picture of this man. This continued over the following few days as police obtained further time to question the gentleman in question, and more of his former acquaintances came forward with stories about his apparently odd behaviour.
On new year’s day, this man was released on bail, at which point the tone of the stories changed. He was no longer weird or strange, with the newspaper in question now preferring to describe him as “wild-haired eccentric”, and most attention in the article reporting this being paid to comments from his aunt and former colleagues who supported him, expressing their view that they would never think him capable of such a crime.
Anna Soubry
I am very grateful for the exceptionally helpful comments that have been made thus far by the hon. Gentleman. Does he agree that at the point when this gentleman was arrested and there was a media feeding frenzy attacking his character, it would be fair to say that there must have been women in Bristol who concluded that the police had him and that therefore they were safe? If events are proved right, women were effectively made more vulnerable in the mistaken belief that the attacker was no longer on the loose.
Robert Flello
I fully understand what the hon. Lady says, and I have a great deal of sympathy for her view. However, if the media had simply published the name and address of the individual concerned, some people might still have drawn that conclusion. The problem comes from the vilification rather than the simple reporting. There is a lot of merit in what she says, but there is also an alternative view on it.
It is safe to say that the now positive comments coming from the media had been mentioned in all but the briefest of ways in articles in the previous days, and the media’s fixation on the landlord did not lead to him becoming any less strange or weird in their eyes, but the tone of their reporting changed markedly once he was released on bail. It can be assumed only that the papers concerned considered such information to be important only while he was being treated as a murder suspect. This will become more relevant later in my speech when I refer to the fact that the media are required by the Contempt of Court Act 1981 to make no speculation about an individual’s guilt and avoid comments that might interfere with the course of justice.
The hon. Lady rightly made the point that the media cannot be relied upon to police themselves. The sad fact is that stories such as that of the man in Bristol sell papers and keep people tuned into 24-hour news channels. I appreciate what she has said about it being incumbent on all of us not to buy those newspapers or watch those TV programmes, but I suspect that, unfortunately, the vast majority of us have that failing in our character that makes us interested in such cases. It is hardly surprising that there is a race between news outlets to uncover the most outrageous and startling rumours about an individual, to the extent that having blue hair or looking slightly eccentric suddenly become an indication of criminal activity.
With the costs and difficulties of bringing a case of libel or defamation before the courts, which are often perceived as a barrier, there is little reason for media outlets to temper their vitriol and innuendo. The Bill has great benefit, therefore, because it at least explores a possible remedy. At face value, it could address precisely the problems raised and protect individuals such as the man in Bristol.
The problem is that it is unfair to portray the entire media as simply feeding on such cases. There are countless examples of the media helping the police hugely by providing details of an arrested individual. For example, after an individual has been brought to the attention of the public, other victims have been known to come forward and either reveal more details about the crime under investigation or show that the crimes were more extensive than first thought.
Perhaps the most high-profile recent case in which media coverage has had that effect is that of John Worboys, the serial rapist, as the true extent of his crimes was known only after the police made an appeal and encouraged the media’s involvement. The case is well known. Mr Worboys was a licensed London taxi driver who was given an indefinite sentence in April 2009 on 19 charges of drugging and sexually assaulting women. He would pick them up in the centre of London or Bournemouth in the early hours of the morning and targeted victims who looked as though they had been drinking. He would then rape or sexually assault them. On waking, many victims could not remember the events.
In the years leading up to Mr Worboys’s arrest, 14 women notified the police that they had been sexually assaulted in taxis, but no link was ever made. He had previously been arrested and released in July 2007, allowing him time to attack many more women. At the time of his conviction, detectives suspected Worboys of being responsible for 83 horrific crimes. Although it was not the coverage of his arrest in particular that led to huge numbers of women coming forward, it was the efforts of the police and media following his conviction that led to the number of women that police suspect were attacked by Worboys rising to more than 100. That would make Mr Worboys possibly the most prolific sex offender in British history.
The purpose of mentioning that case is to highlight the benefits to victims of identifying an individual who has been arrested. Women who had perhaps lost hope of ever getting justice following their experience at the hands of people such as Worboys were able to face their attacker and could at least achieve some closure. We must always have in mind the victims of crime when discussing measures such as this. We, as parliamentarians, cannot pass a law that would impact on those who commit crimes without giving a great deal of thought, indeed probably more thought, to those who are subject to those crimes.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, research suggests that victims of rape and sexual abuse require more support than victims of other crimes, and people arrested for such crimes seem particularly likely to be subject to the kind of media attention that we are discussing. Therefore, we need to be particularly careful during this debate. I fear that there is not enough mention of the victims during discussions of the Bill, both today and in discussions in the wider media. I would have liked to hear more reaction from victims groups, which are in a much stronger position to provide evidence on how the matter is viewed by the people who suffer the crimes.
Robert Flello
Yes, indeed. The widespread view is that the Bill is well intentioned, but, as I hope to tease out from the rest of my speech, as hon. Members have already said and as comments to come will show, either there are other ways of dealing with the matter or further work is needed.
I can see the arguments from both sides. I can see that for the victim of a crime, seeing their attacker or someone accused of being their attacker on the front page of a newspaper or in other news coverage would undoubtedly be painful. I can see also, as in the John Worboys case, that it would provide an opportunity for a victim to achieve some closure and make police fully aware of the extent of an individual’s crimes.
Anna Soubry
None of the women whom John Worboys assaulted and attacked knew his name. They came forward because there was publicity about his modus operandi, not because of his name. That is a big flaw in the argument, and it occurred last year in the debate about anonymity for people accused of rape. The victims came forward because they knew a taxi driver who operated in that criminal way had been arrested by the police, but it is a big mistake to put that argument forward as a reason for naming somebody who has been arrested.
Robert Flello
I understand where the hon. Lady is coming from, but I am trying to make the important point that the media have a significant role. The publication of an individual’s name or face, or a detailed description of the circumstances in which they operate, can lead to more people coming forward, but we do not want to see vitriol, innuendo and shameful behaviour. That is the nub of what I believe the hon. Lady’s Bill tries to address.
Equally, I can see that, for the family of someone who has been murdered or subjected to some other horrendous crime, seeing the suspect’s identity revealed and feeling that the police are making strides in bringing the killer to justice could come as a great relief. Some people, however, might find it painful to see details of a case spread across the papers.
In an ideal world, perhaps the victim or their family could play a greater role in deciding whether an individual’s identity is revealed. I suspect the hon. Lady suggests such a situation in the part of her Bill that deals with the grounds for revoking anonymity, but in practice it is likely to be far too complicated to provide for affording as much importance to the views of the victim or their family as many of us would want. Indeed, the circumstances would be so emotive and distressing that they would undoubtedly have an impact on the family.
Anna Soubry
With great respect, I think we are moving into really difficult territory, because Joanna Yeates’s family did not know whether the man who had been arrested was the person who had murdered their daughter or fiancée, so in those circumstances it would be fallacious to argue that the victim’s family should be involved, in any way, in the publication of an arrested person’s name.
Robert Flello
The point, however, is that we are looking at proposed legislation born of several high-profile cases, and trying to find a way of addressing how the victim and their family feel and the impact of any publication are important elements in the situation. It is an incredibly complicated situation, however, and that is the point.
Another example is that of Harold Shipman, because it was only when other cases and family members of other deceased individuals came forward with their experiences that the extent of the horrific crimes committed was truly known. As the promoter of the Bill has stated about her efforts, I, too, am not trying to bash the media out of hand or to lay the blame for the situation solely at their door. As I develop my speech, I shall try to deal with how the current situation has come about, but the point is that, without the media, public knowledge of the justice system would be much worse. As well as accepting that there are many unsatisfactory aspects, we should be thankful for their coverage of court proceedings. I am pleased, therefore, that the hon. Lady’s Bill addresses this matter in clause 2, where powers are in place for certain individuals to disapply the restriction on the naming of an individual if it were felt that the reporting would be
“in the interests of justice”
or “in the public interest”. The clause goes on to give some examples of where the former might be applied, such as when it
“may lead to additional complainants coming forward”
or to the provision of
“information that assists the investigation of the offence”.
My discomfort results from the fact that the provision arguably makes the system more complex and puts the decision in the hands of a judge, and therefore relies on the view of the judge being correct. It may not be immediately apparent that the publication of a name would lead to further complainants coming forward. There can be no tried and trusted method of knowing in precisely which cases further crimes are likely to have been committed, but rather only a suspicion on the part of the investigating officers.
There is therefore a discussion to be had about whether it is better that the names of all arrested persons are reported in the knowledge that, in some cases, further information or complainants would come forward, or better that the names of no arrested persons are reported and we have faith that opportunities will not be missed by judges. I think that the hon. Lady would agree—I am sure that she will leap to her feet if she does not—that this is not really about anonymity but about the vitriol and appalling behaviour of some parts of the media.
Robert Flello
The hon. Gentleman makes the point very well, and I will return to it shortly.
I should like to touch on other concerns that I have about the Bill, some of which relate to whether it is necessary and some to how it would work in practice. First, it is worth mentioning again the current legislation relating to contempt of court. The Contempt of Court Act 1981 is the most important piece of legislation in this field and, if used properly, it should be sufficient to deal with the problems that the Bill seeks to address. Section 2(2) of the Act states that the press are prohibited from the reporting of information which
“creates a substantial risk that the course of justice in the proceedings in question will be seriously impeded or prejudiced”.
In the Joanna Yeates case, the Bristol man would almost certainly not have had a fair trial if he had indeed been guilty of the offences. Therefore, use of the 1981 Act should have been looked at more closely.
Of course, the simple reporting of an individual’s arrest would not impede or prejudice an investigation. I suspect that few Members have a strong objection to the simple reporting of an arrested person’s name; we have pretty much heard agreement on that today. Indeed, this reporting is crucial to the rule that administration of justice should take place in the public eye. Simple reporting of a name ensures that speculation is avoided and protects other individuals. The problem has arisen from the fact that the simple reporting of a name has grown and mutated, in a ridiculous and appalling way, into in-depth investigations about an individual’s past jobs, hobbies and actions.
The media are expected to refrain from reporting on a suspected person’s previous convictions or making any sort of speculative comment about an individual’s guilt or otherwise. I would argue that in the Bristol case, and in others, a number of press outlets were indeed guilty of precisely that—effectively carrying out their own investigations into the case and speculating as to why the person would carry out this crime with only the merest of efforts to mention that no charges had been laid. This mutation has been allowed to happen because of the failure of various bodies, including Ministers, to ensure that the law is implemented properly.
In the Bristol case, I am afraid to say that the reaction of the Attorney-General was not what I would have expected of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. His so-called warning to newspaper editors consisted of little more than the gentlest of reminders of the law as it stands and the importance of nothing taking place that might prejudice a fair trial. Indeed, according to reports of this “warning”, the Attorney-General was very careful not to address precisely the coverage of the Joanna Yeates case. I dare say that had the Attorney-General taken a stronger view and warned media outlets that some of the reporting was at great risk of being in contempt—I think that hon. Members agree that it probably was in contempt—a slightly more measured approach might have been taken.
Anna Soubry
I would not criticise the Attorney-General. That is not just because I support him as a Government member, but because the Contempt of Court Act simply does not address this problem in the way we all want it to be addressed. I am grateful that hon. Members agree about the way it should be addressed. The fault is not with the Attorney-General but with the Act, whether because the test is too high or because it does not address the pre-charge situation.
Robert Flello
We might just have to disagree on that point. I think that a gentle warning was insufficient, and that the Contempt of Court Act could have applied. Perhaps we will discuss that on another occasion. I would feel some trepidation about enacting further legislation before we are sure whether the existing legislation could be made to work in the way we would like the Bill before us to work.
My second major concern is that although the Bill would address concerns with the print and TV media, it would not address the largest problem—the internet. Hon. Members have commented on this point at length. I appreciate that the hon. Lady has included the prohibition of electronic publishing and transmission in the Bill, but it is almost impossible to police these things in cyberspace. It is not impossible, but under current legislation it is all but impossible. It is all very well individuals’ identities being kept secret from the traditional media, but it would be almost impossible to stop rumour and speculation revealing those identities. Much comment has been made about Twitter, and I know that Mr Speaker has his own views on Twitter in this Chamber. However, many people believe that if something has been tweeted, it is fact. It is a very public method of disseminating information. It is not like a conversation over the garden fence, as has been said; it is more like a conversation over a garden fence in the middle of a football field on a crowded Saturday afternoon using megaphones.
In my view, that is the strongest argument against the Bill. Although the media may not have covered themselves in glory in reporting the arrest of the gentleman in Bristol, if an individual’s identity will be known anyway, I would much rather place my faith in traditional media than in the self-policed world of internet blogs and news sites, where there are countless examples of uninformed comment and speculation. To deny the traditional media the ability to report an arrest when the identity of the individual is well known on the internet would be deeply unfair and would risk even worse coverage than we have seen in the past few months. If we cannot find a way to make the Bill address the problems of the internet, it might be almost impossible to implement. No good comes from passing a Bill that solves one problem while creating an arguably more difficult one.
If we are to pass the Bill on the basis that we do not feel it is fair for someone to be identified when they are simply being questioned by police, should we not also consider the fundamental issue that someone is innocent until proven guilty? That point has been made by a couple of hon. Members. Just as much damage can be done to a person’s reputation if they are vilified when charged but subsequently found not guilty as if they are arrested and then not charged. If the Bill leads us down the road towards anonymity throughout the legal process, which would be almost impossible to achieve and which flies in the face of justice being seen to be done, that might be a dangerous move.
Finally, I am interested to know what discussions the hon. Lady has had about the Bill with Ministers in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. She may wish to intervene on that point.
Robert Flello
Although the Bill is mainly of concern to the Ministry of Justice, much of the day-to-day regulation of what we see on our screens and in our newspapers is done by the DCMS. There is a strong argument that were Ofcom or, heaven forbid, the Press Complaints Commission to take a more proactive approach to such issues, perhaps citing the Contempt of Court Act where necessary, we might not have to make a law such as this. That would warrant further investigation were the Bill to pass to Committee stage.
Although at face value it appears simple to change the law, a multitude of issues complicate the matter and turn it into a difficult question that affects a huge number of areas. We must balance the view that the most important thing is that justice is seen to be done with the view that we must ensure that everything possible is done to ensure that justice can be done. We must balance the idea that the press should be free to report as they see fit with the fact that an individual should be considered innocent until proven guilty and has a right to be able to continue with their life unmolested if police inquiries prove that they are not linked to the crime and no charges are made. We must also consider the fact that although we might not like the way in which the media have reported some of the more high-profile cases in recent years, there are also many examples of their having made a huge contribution to justice being done and criminals being brought to justice.
The Bill addresses a crucial problem and a particularly unsavoury aspect of the way in which crime is reported in our press. However, I feel that as it stands, it does not address the problem as thoroughly as I would like, and it would certainly need significantly more work to become a successful law. Ideally, I should like the themes of the Bill to be incorporated into a wider Bill that also addressed a number of other points on the subject. I say to the Minister that perhaps that should be considered as part of the forthcoming libel and defamation Bill.
If the Bill receives its Second Reading today, I hope it will receive more detailed scrutiny in Committee, and I hope that we will ultimately be left with a Bill that satisfies and respects the rights of the victim, the accused and our law enforcement bodies alike.