Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill

Robert Courts Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Friday 11th May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his additional clarification. We are in complete agreement.

Speaking of complete agreement, I want to make one more point about the amendments. It relates to amendment 9, also tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay, assisted on this occasion by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole. The amendment proposes the introduction of a test of reasonableness in relation to notice periods, to which a number of Members have referred.

Clearly, in circumstances of probably unexpected bereavement, requiring parents to comply with potentially quite prescriptive and very detailed notice periods would not be appropriate. As other Members have said, it would present the risk that a bereaved parent might inadvertently fall foul of one of those notice periods. I think that there is a strong case for a general requirement—either in the Bill, which is the aim of the amendment, or in subsequent regulations—for employers to act reasonably in this context. Such a catch-all would, I think, provide a general level of protection and reassurance for bereaved parents.

I know that other Members want to speak. Again, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton: I am delighted to be here today to support this excellent Bill.

[Robert Courts (Witney) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to speak in the debate. I have been greatly moved by what has been said by Members in all parts of the House. Others may agree that the House is shown at its best when it works on a cross-party basis—when it listens to Members who speak about their individual experiences and who speak with passion and knowledge. I salute all those who have done so today: their speeches have made a great impact on me and, I am sure, on my constituents and the whole country.

We are debating a very important piece of legislation, but perhaps one of its effects will lie outside legislation. As anyone who has experienced bereavement will realise, one of the initial feelings is isolation—the sense that friends or family are not coming to see them or a feeling of distance from their employers. I hope that those who are watching the debate or who read the report later realise how much they are not alone. They are listened to, and many Members on both sides of the House have their interests firmly at heart and are doing everything they can to help.

I warmly welcome the Bill, and I pay tribute—as others have, but it bears repetition—to all those who have argued this case so compassionately and for so long. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince) has been one of the leading lights, and he introduced a version of the Bill that sadly did not make it past the general election. The Government have picked the issue up and support the Bill—it was in the Conservative party’s manifesto—and I thank them for doing so. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) has, in the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, picked up the baton—a nice way to put it. It is important to remember that this is very much a team effort, and several Members supported it in the recent Westminster Hall debate and the baby loss awareness debate some months ago, in which I was deeply honoured to speak. I thank everyone involved enormously, because many people in West Oxfordshire will be feeling grief and loss but be heartened to see that so many people in this House are seeking to help them.

I am also pleased that, while some other countries have similar rights, we will be world leaders in introducing this level of rights and protection. That makes it sound a little too inhuman—it will be a level of reassurance and human compassion that will be world leading. I am proud to be able to make a few brief comments in support of the Bill and on the amendments tabled by hon. Members on both sides of the House to attempt to improve the Bill, which is of course to be highly commended.

Amendments 1, 2, 12 and 14 deal with definitions and whether we should be dealing solely with literal parents. I do not think that we should be prescriptive and that only biological parents should be the beneficiaries of assistance under this legislation. Clearly, as we will all know from our constituents, many people can be involved in caring for a child: the biological parents or foster parents, or others who it is difficult to foresee in legislation but who may be deeply involved in a child’s upbringing and be devastated by its loss. We should be as flexible as we can to ensure that people, however they are connected—whether they have a caring responsibility in a formal sense or in more of a moral sense—are equally protected and assisted by this legislation.

We will need some clarity, and the Government are consulting on this and listening carefully. It is a drafting issue and we will have to ensure that the Bill is phrased to provide breadth and width, but also clarity. We must make it clear in passing the legislation that we are seeking to help those who are bereaved having cared for a child and that we do not want to be prescriptive about particular classes of carer.

[Kevin Foster]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the firm message that we want to send to the Minister is that the definition of “parent” is about parenting, not biology and blood lines?

[Robert Courts]

As so often, my hon. Friend makes the point that I was seeking to make, but more succinctly and eloquently. He is right: it is parenting, not being a biological parent, that I am seeking to stress, and I am sure we all agree on that.

Amendments 3, 5, 22 and 23 deal with when leave can be taken and for how long. I am humbled to speak in this debate, as I have heard so many moving stories from those who understand only too well the nature of grief. I hesitate to express my thoughts, but I do so with the intention of being as helpful as possible. Grief is not a predictable phenomenon. People cannot know how long they will grieve for or what form their grief will take. Perhaps most strikingly, they have no way of knowing when it will strike. It may be immediate. However, as we have heard, people often find different coping methods. They may decide to carry on. Going back to work and immersing themselves in the hubbub of everyday life makes them feel better for some time, but sooner or later grief hits and they may then need leave from their employer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (Con)]

I commend those who have brought this Bill forward and those who have suffered personal loss. Among the friends of mine who have suffered such a loss, the line has always been, “It’s just wrong to have to bury a child; nature didn’t intend it that way.” Therefore, regardless of whether we are 80 years old and burying a child or 30 and burying a young infant, it is the wrong way around and the effects cannot be overestimated, so we must offer support in all cases.

[Robert Courts]

My hon. Friend powerfully makes the very point I want to make. For any human being, burying a child is profoundly distressing, as it goes against our very nature as humans. We therefore should not even countenance saying that people should not be able to avail themselves of assistance just because their child is older; that would go against what we are trying to achieve.

While that is my wish, however, I listened carefully to the interventions made by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, and my overriding desire is that this legislation gets on to the statute book. If it just sets a minimum level, we do not have to say that that is it, the story is closed and we can never amend it again. We can come back to it: we can either amend this legislation through regulations or come back and debate it again, and campaign, as we are so used to doing, to ensure that we provide a higher standard. I would not like any changes to be made now that mean either the Government are unable to support the Bill or employers feel that it is too onerous on them, and as a result we do not have these much-needed protections. It must be our foremost concern today to put these protections in place.

The last group on which I want to comment is those that address notice periods: amendments, 9, 10, 11, 15 and 17. I think that an element of practicality is intended here, and I would certainly not wish to see anything in this Bill that requires people, at a time of profound distress, when their world has been turned upside down and they cannot think straight, to have to worry about filling in forms or jumping through hoops or having to comply with something, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp) said, might mean they inadvertently fall foul of a regulation.

We are seeking to provide legislation that is compassionate and sensitive. The requirement for any notice period to be given must be very light touch and amount to nothing more than people simply telling the employer that this tragedy has occurred and they would like to go off for a certain period. That is reasonable to enable the employer to provide some cover for the job they are undertaking at that time, but I certainly would not want to see requirements put in place—perhaps involving training—and people having to worry about whether they have complied with them. That would be running completely counter to what we are trying to achieve here.

[Kevin Foster]

Does my hon. Friend agree that that is the benefit of saying the notice must be reasonable or, as amendment 17 from my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) proposes, giving as much scope as possible about how this notice can be provided, so that there is not a written form that people must be aware of and fill in?

[Robert Courts]

My hon. Friend rightly draws my attention to amendment 17, and the fact that I have not referred to it directly is perhaps a drawback of dealing with the amendments in groups in the way that I have done. The amendment says:

“Employers must accept notice given in writing, face to face, by telephone or through a third party on behalf of the bereaved parent.”

Therefore, it makes clear that a low level of notification is required. I think that is along the right lines, and I ask the Minister to consider it and respond.

Similarly, in providing evidence, people should not be required to find and supply to an employer a death certificate or a coroner’s report, because that is the very last thing they would want to deal with at such a time. I appreciate that some people might use legislation to accrue a benefit to which they were not entitled, but my mind boggles somewhat at that happening in such circumstances, and legislation already exists to deal with anyone who takes such an extreme course of action. My overriding concern is to ensure that bereaved parents and carers are looked after and helped. That must be what we are seeking to do here, rather than setting up bureaucratic hurdles for them at a time when they really do not require them.

I am grateful to the House for listening to me. Suffice it to say that I support the Bill, which, although overdue, is very welcome. I wish it a speedy passage, and I congratulate once again those who have taken the standard forward and taken the Bill through the House. I commend all those who have spoken with such total bravery today. It is not easy for them to stand up in public and explain things that are so personal, but the Bill shows the enormous impact that they can have when they do so. I salute all hon. Members who have done that today and on other occasions.

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure, as always, to follow my always eloquent hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Robert Courts). I rise to speak briefly to amendments 2, 3, 5, 6, and 22 to 24. I should like to thank the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) for being so diligent in tabling so many amendments that are clearly intended to improve the Bill. As others have said, however, we need to be careful not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and it is the clear consensus of the whole House, and indeed the country, that we have to get the Bill passed.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) for bringing forward the Bill in such a considered manner, and for working so closely across the House and with the Government to ensure that we really make this happen. Like others, I also want to pay a sincere tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) and for Colchester (Will Quince), who have championed this cause, and related causes, for so long and with such eloquence and passion. Their truly heartfelt speeches have shown this House at its best, today and on many occasions over the past few years.

I have a few constituents—I am glad to say that the number is relatively small—who have had direct experience of child bereavement. However, a large number of my constituents have contacted me to say that they support the Bill. Although a relatively small number of people have experienced the pain of losing their child, everyone can sympathise with the pain and anguish that such an occurrence brings. The loss of a child is an unbearable experience—perhaps the worst form of bereavement that a person can suffer—and we must ensure that parents are supported throughout what must be one of the hardest periods in their lives.

I want to talk about the numbers, because they are important not only for the amendments but for the overall Bill. Sadly, thousands of parents each year suffer the devastation of losing a child. The Office for National Statistics data shows that 4,300 children under the age of 18 died in Great Britain in 2016, affecting 8,000 employed parents. However, using that data and taking into consideration the assumption that some separated parents may have new partners with direct parental responsibility, the Bill’s impact assessment estimates that as many as 11,500 people will have been directly affected in 2016. So we are talking about more than 100,000 parents or carers being impacted over the course of a decade. That is not an insignificant number, and we need to consider that carefully.

There are three groups or areas that I wish to speak to today. The first, covered in particular by amendment 2, deals with extending the Bill to cover not only parents but grandparents and others with caring responsibilities. This is an important aspect, as my hon. Friends the Members for Croydon South (Chris Philp) and for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan) have mentioned. We need to think carefully not only about parents but about all those who have parenting responsibilities in the modern age. The situation is not the same as it was 30 or 40 years ago. We need to think particularly about grandparents, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) has said. Grandparents are a group of people whom I champion, as I believe that they are underserved by legislation in this country today. It is important that we show them proper recognition in law.

The second grouping of amendments relates to the period in which the leave can be taken. This is addressed in amendments 3, 5, 22 and 23. The Bill allows for a minimum of two weeks’ bereavement leave for eligible employees, but how those two weeks may be taken—all in one go, for example, or perhaps in various non-consecutive blocks—has been left undecided. I have great sympathy for the sentiment behind amendment 22, which calls for flexibility on when entitled leave can be taken. Grief affects each of us differently, and while it may suit some bereaved parents to take two weeks off in one go, that will not be true for everyone. After all, the Bill intends to provide additional support to parents mourning a loss, and to be truly beneficial there should be some flexibility in the entitlement so that parents can use it to best suit their individual needs.