Children and Families Bill

Debate between Robert Buckland and Jesse Norman

Tuesday 11th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Buckland]

That is absolutely correct, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady. Sadly, mental health issues are a co-morbidity that becomes prevalent if, for example, a condition such as autism is not identified at an early age. It is a tragedy that so many young people who have autism or Asperger’s-related conditions end up with a mental health problem because their condition is not diagnosed or has been misunderstood or in some cases mistreated. I pay tribute, however, to child and adolescent mental health services that do the job well, understand the needs of people with pre-existing conditions, and adapt their services accordingly. A visit to a CAMHS unit can be quite a regressive experience for a young person with autism, which is why adapting services around the child or young person is so important.

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful case. Does he share my view that, as with the local offer, it is important to avoid confusion between two things—educational provision for local students and educational provision available in the local area? With some conditions, the local area simply might not be capable of providing the educational specialist provision that would be available from national providers.

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[Mr Buckland]

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, who I know represents a wonderful special college in Hereford that does tremendous work, not just on a local basis but on a wider basis. He brings a different strand to some of our debates about the need to ensure that, where necessary, there will still be placements well out of the borough, county or district in which young people live. Colleges such as the one my hon. Friend admirably represents fulfil that need and gap and must be part of our provision.

[Jesse Norman]

rose—

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[Mr Buckland]

I will give way one more time to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) and then to the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke).

[Jesse Norman]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. He is right to say that the Royal National College for the Blind is an extraordinary institution, in part because it provides, through its own specialist skills, the kind of holistic understanding of how educational and health care needs can come together. That is one reason why it is such an extraordinary and special place and why it must be preserved amid all the other things the Bill seeks to achieve.

[Mr Buckland]

I cannot improve upon perfection.

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[Mr Buckland]

I do not claim a monopoly of wisdom on the precise wording, but it is important to go back to the case law—London Borough of Bromley v. the SEN tribunal in 1999, in which Lord Justice Sedley stated:

“Special educational provision is, in principle, whatever is called for by a child’s learning difficulty,”

which he goes on to define. He states:

“What is special about special educational provision is that it is additional to or different from ordinary educational provision”.

In that phrase, we have a more fundamental definition. Provision is not what is significant, but whatever is necessary. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for looking at that. My hon. Friend the Minister is listening carefully. Either in this House or in the other place, we need to achieve clarity and a replication of the words of the Lord Justice of Appeal, so that we do not end up moving away from the Government’s clearly stated intention.

[Jesse Norman]

Does my hon. Friend share my view that, to be effective and to respect that leading judgment, the idea of a local offer must include national providers? The judgment is not delimited by location; it merely says that provision should be whatever is necessary. A national provision is sometimes the correct option for a person with special needs.

[Mr Buckland]

My hon. Friend is right. Low-incidence special needs can be catered for only by specialist colleges such as the one he represents—another college in Loughborough offers wonderful provision on a national basis.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Robert Buckland and Jesse Norman

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

7. What recent estimate he has made of the level of central Government debt.

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

11. What recent estimate he has made of the level of central Government debt.