Energy BILL [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Rishi Sunak and Jonathan Reynolds

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Jonathan Reynolds]

We are straying a bit beyond the narrow remit of the Bill, but the point is an important one. On Second Reading—the hon. Gentleman and I were there—the overall figure was 5%, not 1%. It was 1% at the specific moment that the hon. Gentleman spoke—I will give him that—but in that 24-hour period it was running at about a quarter of the energy produced by our entire nuclear fleet, which is not a small contribution.

I recommend that all hon. Members take the time to go to National Grid’s control centre to see the multitude of different generating assets that can be turned on, or brought off the system, as required to keep the system in balance. That is not done as a short-term response to the current level of wind. National Grid’s weather planning system tells it exactly what it will need on certain days, and it is tremendously effective. I do not agree with the simplistic point that every megawatt of wind energy will have to have a corresponding megawatt of traditional gas generating capacity to back it up. Frankly, the people who are skilled at running our entire network do not tell me that that is the case, and I am willing to believe them given how successful they are at running the overall system.

[Rishi Sunak]

The hon. Gentleman is well versed in these matters, so can he point me in the right direction? My understanding is that Ofgem gives guidance to the grid about ensuring system security and ensuring that there is enough capacity at peak times of the day. Ofgem’s recommendation is that wind is considered to have the equivalent firm capacity of 20% of a thermal plant. That Ofgem recommendation clearly states that wind is not as efficient as a thermal plant, and when it is considering system security, there must be back-up. Does he disagree with Ofgem on that point?

[Jonathan Reynolds]

The hon. Gentleman is making a different point from his colleague, but for every generating asset on the system there will be a corresponding back-up percentage. Some of the greatest intermittency problems come from routine cases where things such as nuclear generating assets have to be taken off line for maintenance. All those decisions therefore have a corresponding back-up ratio, which is nothing new. One of the most frustrating things in debates about energy with the modern Conservative party is that a certain set of arguments is often applied to the renewable asset that is currently not in vogue in the Conservative party—there is a pretence that all the complexities of the energy system, whether it is strike payments or back-up capacity, only apply to things such as onshore wind, but obviously they apply to every generating asset.

[Rishi Sunak]

Looking at the numbers, does the hon. Gentleman at least agree that most other generating capacity back-ups are in the 80% to 90% range and that wind is an outlier, and considerably lower, at 20%? Is it at least true that wind is considerably less reliable than those other forms of generation?

[Jonathan Reynolds]

I do not agree at all.