Digital Economy Bill (First sitting)

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Kevin Brennan]

It is according to the Government that there has been much progress.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

Q Mr Moorey, to elaborate on what you said about the provisions in the Bill to reform the appeals process, I think you described the current set-up as having a chilling effect on competition and pro-consumer impacts. It would be great if you would elaborate on what the Bill will do to improve that situation.

Pete Moorey: I think it has. I think the reason why we do not have things like a gain in provider-led switching and automatic compensation in the sector is in part due to the fact that the regulator has not felt able to move ahead with those things without appeal. Indeed, the speed at which the regulator acts is also a result of the appeals mechanism. We see proposals coming from Ofcom, particularly around things like switching, where it seems to go through a process of repeated consultation really out of a fear of being appealed by the companies. So I think it has had a chilling impact, and those are a couple of examples.

As other panel members have said, moving to a system that every other economic regulator in the country uses, which means that you are able to challenge on the process rather than the merits, would therefore be a significant change. I simply do not see the case for the telecoms sector being any different from energy or any other economically regulated sector.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q A great frustration in rural areas in particular is being promised mobile coverage or broadband speed that is not delivered. What in the Bill can ensure that those speeds are delivered and that coverage is acceptable?

Pete Moorey: The automatic compensation element is an important part of that. If you are not receiving the speed or signal required, there could be a case for compensation. Clearly, a big issue that we want to see addressed that is not in the Bill is around the Advertising Standards Authority code and the fact that companies can advertise that you will get a certain speed when actually only 10% of their customers get that. I know that the ASA and its committees are looking at that, but I think that needs to move forward much quicker. That is clearly not something for the Bill, but it is something we would support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

Q Jeni, my first two questions to you, please.

Jeni Tennison: I agree with much of what Mike has said. The important thing for securing public trust in the measures in the Bill is to have them clearly communicated to the public. Currently, the way they are written is quite complicated and it is quite hard to understand what they really mean.

It is also hard to understand the measures in the Bill in the context of the existing data-sharing agreements in the public sector. We would like to see a lot more transparency around what existing measures there are within Government for data sharing and how the Bill fits with those existing measures so that people can really get to grips with the way in which data are flowing through Government.

Mike Bracken: May I add to that? I completely support what Jeni has said. The issue is that, while we agree that making services and data better and easier to access—the current sharing arrangements are opaque at best—we question the sentiment behind widening those sharing arrangements when they are currently not fully understood. It would appear that that sentiment is driven more by the operational structures of Whitehall and Government agencies than by the needs of users accessing that data.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q Jeni, do you mind giving us some specific examples that I can explain to my constituents about where increased use of data sharing can help their lives, and where public services can be improved, especially for those who are more vulnerable and benefit from public services? Where will data sharing help them to get the right policies to them?

Jeni Tennison: I tend to work in the open data area rather than around data sharing so many of the examples I tend to use are around data that are openly available for anyone to access using Share. The example I tend to use, which helps people to get to grips with it, is Citymapper, which makes data available to us to enable us to navigate around cities very easily.

When you look at the public sector and the kind of decisions it needs to make, such as planning decisions about where to place schools or transport links, where to put more infrastructure, such as physical infrastructure like mobile masts, for example, you can see that having better access to data about people’s needs—who they are and what their requirements are—might enable it to make better decisions about where those facilities are needed.

Q Thangam Debbonaire: This is for Jeni Tennison about the evidence in the Open Rights Group’s submission. In points 37 and 38 in your objections to the definition of pornographic material, you objected to the inclusion of all 18 materials.

[Louise Haigh]

That is a different witness. That is the Open Rights Group.

Digital Economy Bill (Second sitting)

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

Q Mr Coates, will you expand a little on your experience, internationally, of licence requirements in broadening coverage to rural areas? What is the specific benefit of independently owned infrastructure for rural communities, in bringing access to places which struggle with mobile signal today?

Scott Coates: I am going to pick on two countries that we have looked at making investments into. Germany, which I mentioned earlier, has an outside-in policy, so you have to cover their rural areas with your new batch of spectrum before you are allowed to deploy it into urban areas. France has got a very interesting model, in which they have compartmentalised the whole country. At the moment the Ofcom licences ensure that Scotland, England and Wales have their own targets, but if you break it down even further, the demands become higher on those targets. We have seen some targets in France where, by compartment, we are looking at 99.6% coverage by 2027. They have given the industry a long time to reach that target, but it is very bold. If people knew it was going to get better, maybe it would become a bit more understandable. This is not like changing a lightbulb; this is infrastructure that needs to be built.

I think there are three benefits of independent infrastructure. First, there is clear evidence that it enables better connectivity. Because our infrastructure is operated independently of a network, we do not have any of the conflicts of interest that normally exist in the vertically integrated model, in which the infrastructure owner is forced to provide access to their competitor. Because we focus only on infrastructure—it is our core business model—we tend to build better infrastructure, and we share it with more networks. There is evidence out there. Ernst and Young looked at this last year and studied independent communication tower ownership across north America and Europe. They compared it with communication towers that are owned as part of mobile networks. They found that there are twice as many networks using the independent infrastructure, compared with the vertically integrated owned infrastructure. That is twice the productivity coming off a piece of infrastructure, which is transformational, when it comes to enabling connectivity, particularly in rural areas.

The second benefit is around investment. At the end of the day, solving these problems comes down to investment. Independent infrastructure opens up a whole new channel of investor and brings a different type of investor into our industry: long-term, low-cost-to-capital infrastructure investors who are targeting infrastructure only. They do not want to invest in the retail operations or in buying premiership football rights; they want to invest purely in infrastructure. We can be a conduit to bring in that capital to invest in infrastructure. Earlier this year, after 10 years of various rounds of financing, our business announced a major fundraising transaction with a UK blue chip infrastructure investor—3i Infrastructure plc—and a north American investor that invests on behalf of state pension plans. That is exactly the kind of capital you want—long-term, patient capital—fuelling the growth of infrastructure.

The final benefit is in and around competition. We create competition at the infrastructure level. On the fixed-line side of the market, you can see some of the challenges from a lack of competition. But we also enable competition at a retail level, because our infrastructure is open for everyone to use. Mobile operators are the biggest users of our infrastructure, but well over 100 different network use our infrastructure in rural areas. Sometimes that can mean a local wireless broadband company that simply cannot afford to build its own infrastructure and would find it very difficult to get access to a mobile operator on a piece of infrastructure. On average, every one of our towers in the UK supports a non-mobile operator network running over it. Those are the three benefits of independent infrastructure.

[The Chair]

That is known in the trade as a comprehensive reply. Thank you.

Digital Economy Bill (Third sitting)

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Committee Debate: 3rd sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 13th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Louise Haigh]

Q In your experience, is it unusual for the Government not to have published at least draft codes of practice alongside legislation of this nature?

Dr Fishenden: I would have assumed that they would be drafted in concert with the Bill, because to test the provisions in the Bill, you would need to run them back past the codes of practice to check that the two work together. I am a bit confused about why they have not appeared, because I cannot see how the Bill would have been drafted without them.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

Q I have a question for Mr Chisholm. I put on record my thanks to your organisation for the wonderful work that it does in my constituency—and in everyone else’s, I am sure—in helping some of the more vulnerable people in society. It is a fantastic organisation. We hear a lot about the big picture of how technology can help people and make their lives better, but you guys are at the coalface, helping vulnerable people. Will you explain how some of the measures in the Bill on data sharing are going to make your life easier and deliver tangible benefits to vulnerable people?

Alistair Chisholm: As I said before, there are definitely cases in which the Government or local authorities do not use their own data to help people when they could. For example, when somebody is paying their magistrate’s fine directly from their benefits, sometimes the benefits change, so the flow is disrupted and the payments stop.

We often see cases in which somebody then has a bailiff at their door and they are threatened with imprisonment when, in fact, they want to pay. The Government actually know that there has been a temporary interruption to their benefits, or that somebody is shifting from jobseeker’s allowance to employment and support allowance. If those data were joined up—obviously in a way that protected consumers as they need to be protected—the debt would continue to be paid, the problem would not be escalated, and the person would have a stable financial arrangement that enables them to meet their obligations. There are opportunities like that.

It is really important to say that it is now time for the Government to do what they have asked the private sector to do in the way they collect data. They need to adapt their systems so that payments are affordable and debts can be reasonably disputed, and so that people are helped.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q Beyond debt collection, are there other areas in which data sharing can be used to ensure that the right services or the right support is getting to people who need it?

Alistair Chisholm: In the public sector?

[Rishi Sunak]

Yes, when the Government are delivering public services. You may have something to say about energy, or perhaps other areas.

Alistair Chisholm: Absolutely, yes. The clause in the Bill under which energy companies and the DWP will share data to help people to access support that is there but that they do not always get is an excellent idea. I very much support that measure. People who are vulnerable are sometimes less able to manage those systems, so if you can join them up effectively, that is very helpful.

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

Q My colleague has already elicited some comments from you, Mr Chisholm, about how you can see the most vulnerable benefiting from the Bill. Can you give some other examples of situations you have come across in which you could see the Bill helping individuals?

Alistair Chisholm: Are you talking about debt?

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

Q For the record, the witness nodded in reply to that question.

On age verification, attention has been drawn to the consequences of failing to think through plans, including the possibility that information on passports and driving licences could be misused when collected as part of an age verification system. Could you comment on that and are you aware of any evidence that might mitigate those risks in that part of the Bill?

Elizabeth Denham: I will ask my colleague to respond to that.

Steve Wood: Our concern about an age verification system is that the hard identifiers that could be collected, such as passports, might need to be secured because of the vulnerability of those pieces of data being linked to other pieces of data and used by the organisation that collects them. We hope that any solution would take a “privacy by design” approach, which very much minimises the amount of data that is taken and may use different ID management systems to verify the age of the individual, rather than a lot of data being collected. It is important that data minimisation is at the heart of any solution. It would be a concern for us if a wide range of solutions was put forward to collect those hard identifiers.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q We hear a lot about how technology can benefit people and that the Government need to harness technology to do just that. Indeed, some data sharing is already going on in the delivery of Government services. Can you describe how the measures in the Bill will provide greater legal certainty and clarity in that area because we want to make sure we are doing things in the right way? Your thoughts in that regard would be helpful.

Elizabeth Denham: This Bill is an enabler. It facilitates data sharing for the improvement of Government services. I think the public welcome that and they expect seamless Government services in some cases. The idea that all data must stay in ivory towers or silos does not make sense when building digital delivery services. That said, we all know that trust and transparency are critical to maintaining the public’s trust in data sharing.

The transparency that needs to be clear in the Bill is on two levels. First, at the point of data collection and in ways that are easy for citizens to access, they should understand the purpose of and how their data will be shared, and they should have the ability to challenge that.

Secondly, there needs to be another layer of safeguards and transparency scattered throughout some of the draft codes of practice, but not in the Bill. That is the transparency that comes from privacy impact assessments, from reviews by our office, and from Parliament looking at revised codes of practice. It is really important that we pay attention to both those levels. Civil society is going to pay attention to published privacy impact assessments; but right now there is no consistency across all the codes of practice for those kinds of safeguards. I believe that some improvements are needed to the Bill.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

Q I wanted to just go back to age verification, if you do not mind, Mr Wood. You made a good deal in your evidence and in your response to my colleague’s earlier question about the concerns that you have—and I get those. Can you push this a bit further and say what you would think was an adequate system of evidence providing for age verification? What would work?

Steve Wood: I will qualify the answer by saying we come at it from a data protection perspective, so our interest is making sure that the personal data of those individuals who would be going through that process is protected, rather than the wider policy issues relating to verification of access to that content; our the key concern is to make sure that the verification system does not lead to disclosure of information if it is not necessary. As tools like federated identity management have developed, it is often possible to use another service—another third party service—to verify the identity of the individual, which could be done using a variety of third party services that are out there. That means that the site owner that provides that pornography service would not need to collect and see all the details about the individual’s age and so on, but that that is provided by a secure, accredited third party service.

The Government’s Verify service has taken some good steps in looking at these different solutions about how identity management can now be developed using these third party services; so it is that sort of approach that we are looking to, rather than a very open-ended approach, as I said earlier, allowing a wide range of information. As to the level and standard of identity, I think that is a different question, but we are really focused on making sure the personal data collected is the bare minimum to make that requirement work.

Digital Economy Bill (Fourth sitting)

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 18th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

Ninety per cent. of UK households can access superfast broadband this year, and that number is set to improve in the next 12 months. However, many of the households that do not have access are in places such as my constituency in rural North Yorkshire, creating a digital divide between those who have access and those who do not. On behalf of my constituents, I welcome clause 1, which provides a safety net so that on reasonable request and at an affordable price they will have access to some measure of broadband connectivity.

Week in, week out, while I am doing my job, I see the benefits that that will bring, and the problems experienced today. Of course, economic development is important. My area is known for its tourism, but when I speak to the owners of holiday cottages or bed-and-breakfast accommodation, they tell me they must advertise across the world on the internet. When people come to visit the beautiful Yorkshire dales, when they have finished their day’s walking in the beauty and splendour of Swaledale, they want to come home and check their emails. It is important that my owners can provide that service.

I was at a school last weekend talking to a group of young pupils who are embracing a new course on coding. Obviously, we are not blessed with Silicon Valley yet in the Yorkshire dales, but they were accessing the resources of Code Academy online at school and wanted to continue that at home in the evening.

Beyond that, the internet keeps families together—not just grandparents who want to see their new grandchildren living abroad on Skype, but also a father to whom I spoke the other weekend who is unfortunately going through a difficult divorce. He told me that his children, with whom he was desperate to maintain a good relationship, were less keen to spend the weekend at his house because of his poor broadband connection.

The Government are moving to a “digital by default” approach to delivering public services, which is commendable, but it is important that everybody, especially farmers in rural areas, have the means to access those Government services.

For all those reasons—the tangible differences that the Bill will make to people’s lives—I welcome the Government’s delivering on their manifesto commitment to put in place the universal service obligation. The Government have the view that this should be an economy and society that works for everyone. Providing good digital connectivity to everybody is certainly part of making that aspiration a reality. On behalf of my constituents, I wholeheartedly welcome and support the measures in clause 1.

[Calum Kerr]

We also support clause 1. I will not repeat the points I made during the debate, but I want to bring a couple to the fore and ask the Minister one specific question, which I hope he will answer. We should not just be looking at closing the divide in the short term; we should be looking at a longer-term fix. We should consider what a minimum speed is today, but we should also be looking to what that might become in the future.

The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley pointed out that the EU target is 100 megabits per second by 2025. While we can aim for 10 megabits per second, if we do not set a horizon of where we want the target to go, we risk putting sticking plasters all over the country and getting solutions that will have no lifespan. We will all be back here in a few years’ time, saying, “I wish we’d listened to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley who wanted an annual review.” We would know that this provision had not been delivered.

Let us try to avoid that scenario and ensure that as the USO goes through the process, what Ofcom designs not only looks at where we are today, but where we want to go in the future. When the Minister gives the main event speech tomorrow at the INCA event, which is advocating a strategy for gigabit Britain, he should set forward a truly ambitious vision of what the UK can offer in this space. Perhaps his response will provide me with some reassurance.

As we have looked at amendments, I have tried to ensure that not only have the Scottish Government and other Administrations been consulted, but they are part of the formulation of the USO. Consultation can be tokenistic or it can be fully engaged and evolved. We need to be fully involved in the design of this process, so that where we set an ambition, a target of 30 megabits per second, the USO supports it—for example, through foundational funding through a voucher scheme. Where any one of the regional councils want to do the same and set an ambitious higher target, the USO should support that, rather than offer a solution that forces them into a corner.

Will the Minister reassure me that the USO designed by his Government with Ofcom will support devolved Administrations and regions and provide foundational funding—not just 10 megabits, take it or leave it?

Digital Economy Bill (Seventh sitting)

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Committee Debate: 7th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 25th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr]

That is an excellent point. I think that the ambition is to make the amendment paper longer than the Bill. If the Bill is a Christmas tree, the baubles must be hollow, with a little note inside saying “IOU a lot more detail, or an apology.” It has made my first Bill Committee an interesting experience.

Of course we support clause 26 and the spirit behind it. It is important that copyright be protected. Our creative industries in these isles are a huge success story, and they should be fully supported. The hon. Member for Cardiff West gave a thorough and excellent overview of the issues; I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) was delighted to hear that he was on the Bill Committee, as the subject is close to his heart. I would hazard a guess that he has made more than £10.60 from his past efforts. Before I come to the substance of what the hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty said, I put on record my appreciation and admiration for his contribution last Friday. That day showed the worst and best of democracy in this place, and he was part of the best.

On the new clauses, I have been sitting here messaging my staff asking, “Why didn’t we add my name to these?”. We need to learn how things operate a bit better. We fully support the amendments. New clause 3 is an essential addition. As the hon. Member for Cardiff West said, I am sure that the Government will add something at some point, because that is a logical step to take. As has been outlined in some detail, there are millions of sites flagged to the search engines by the relevant bodies. It is not as though they have to go and find them themselves; it is the process by which the search engines do or do not take the sites down that needs to be brought into sharp focus. Clearly, there are efforts at a voluntary approach, but this is the perfect opportunity to put into legislation something that might drive the right outcome and behaviour without the need for follow-through. Past experience supports that idea. We must see some movement in that area.

We support new clause 33 on IPTV boxes. It is necessary to move with the times. This Christmas tree of a Bill has a lot of aspects to do with the broader digital economy, but people will continue to innovate and find new ways of delivering content, and IPTV is one example. Someone in this place recommended an IPTV box to me for my London flat because it is quite a cheap way of accessing content, but I did not follow that advice because I would not want to access any illegal content. These boxes come pre-loaded, and there should be no pretence about it: they are designed to give people a way of avoiding paying for content that they know they should pay for. There is no excuse for that. New clauses 33 and 3 are essential additions to the Bill, and we are delighted to support them both.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

New clause 3 is about protecting content owners from copyright infringement. Most of the discussion we have heard today has centred on online platforms and their particular abuse of music content. However, has the Minister considered the connected issue of the newspaper industry? Historically, newspapers used revenue from advertising to help support their news-gathering operation, and to provide a vital service, especially in regional and local communities—I am sure that Members on both sides of the Committee will have experienced that service in their constituencies. Today, there is a concern that some online platforms are benefiting from such news-gathering, but are not always paying for it in the most appropriate way. That raises questions about the sustainability of the newspaper industry and the vital service it provides. Has the Minister considered the connected issue of newspapers? Will he share any thoughts with the Committee?

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

I rise to speak in support of these amendments and new clauses, and to add a bit of colour and flavour to some of the arguments that have already been made. We often talk about rights holders, but we need to be aware that behind those rights holders are individual artists, musicians and technical people. It is not just about my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West; it is about the technical people involved in any recording, film or e-book. Many people are involved in those processes, and every time we deny their right to be paid, we are denying them the right to continue working in the way that we would want them to work.

Which of us here has not skipped gaily around the Palace of Westminster, at least in our imagination, with a song in our heart or a tune in our head? Maybe that is just me. Most of us have a favourite film, and we have music at special family occasions. A poem will be read at a funeral and a song will be danced to at a wedding, and all the people involved in producing them need to be paid properly for their work.

There should not be this wild west of a shopping mall where people can access whatever they want for free, without proper provision for reimbursing those involved. Unfortunately, search engines in particular, but also other providers, are allowing that illegal shopping mall to exist, and so artists, writers and others involved in the creative industries are not getting their proper deserts. That is important.

The hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty and my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West both mentioned economic value. I emphasise that according to the Government’s own website, the creative industries are contributing £9.6 million an hour to the UK economy. Since we sat down to work, the creative industries have contributed £9.6 million. UK music alone contributes £4.1 billion each year, which is something to think about. The creative industries are growing at twice the rate of the UK economy, at 8.9%, and we want them to continue to grow. We do not want to deny them part of their income—admittedly the minority, but it is still significant.

We tabled these amendments because we need to harmonise copyright and ensure that licensing laws work across the online and offline world. We want to help Conservative Members to fulfil their commitment in the Tory party manifesto, and new clause 3 would help

“the Government to fulfil its manifesto commitment to reduce copyright infringement and ensure search engines do not link to the worst-offending sites.”

We seem to have a degree of cross-party unity on the value of that measure. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say, because there is otherwise an absence of a specific provision in the Bill to achieve this.

I want us to make sure that the good examples, such as Get it Right from a Genuine Site, are taken up and followed, to avoid the unfortunate misdemeanours of others, such as search engines that can remain nameless—we can all guess who they are and others may have already mentioned them. It is not okay for search engines to drive—wittingly or unwittingly, but they should reasonably have known—towards illegal sites.

Consumers do not want musicians, film makers and others to be robbed of their just deserts. Mostly, we want to be able to be sure that when musicians have made a piece of music we love, they get properly paid for it. It is incumbent on search engines and others to make sure that that happens, and to use the power we know they have to create their algorithms to work properly in this respect. We would not tolerate a shopping mall in which signs and property space were given to illegal shops selling illegal goods. This is the equivalent.

I am absolutely convinced that the Minister would want to honour the commitment in the Tory party manifesto to rectify that. On Second Reading, the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) said,

“there may well be a case for including a legal provision encouraging providers to establish a voluntary code.”

He also said:

“we cannot allow Google and other search providers to go on allowing people access to illegal sites.” —[Official Report, 13 September 2007; Vol. 614, c. 785.]

I am convinced that the Minister will want to take up the mantle he has been thrown by the former Secretary of State and I urge him to do so.