Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Richard Graham and Michael McCann

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

I well remember the days when same-sex couples were denied basic rights: next of kin and relationships were not recognised, pension rights were not available to surviving partners, and discrimination in property and inheritance issues was widespread. Civil partnerships recognised same-sex relationships in law for the first time, and I am extremely proud that it was a Labour Government, with all-party support, who passed that legislation in the House of Commons.

Legislation is not built on sentiment; it is built on fact, and I have to say to Members across the whole House that while that legislation unequivocally broke the back of unlawful discrimination, this proposal does not end any discrimination whatsoever, and has the potential to open up a can of worms of Olympian magnitude. I have to confess that I am bitterly disappointed at the manner in which people’s genuine concerns in this matter have been dismissed by Ministers. Logic has been responded to with platitudes, and there has been no greater offender than the Minister for Women and Equalities. I shall come on to that in more detail in a moment.

I want to ensure that my views are recorded, because I do not agree with the comments from people who are clearly steeped in bigotry and hatred. My concerns are based on three considerations. First, the Bill, should it become law, will give no new rights to same-sex couples in England and Wales, and it is a complete fabrication to suggest that it is about equality. Indeed, the briefing from Stonewall—an organisation I greatly admire—makes no mention whatsoever of new rights.

Secondly, I believe very strongly that the state should have no role in marriage whatsoever. Any couple, same-sex or not, should have access to civil partnerships or unions. If this is truly about changing definitions and setting them in law, for goodness’ sake, let us do it properly and allow the state properly to recognise relationships, treat all people equally and allow equal access to all the mechanisms of the state. By doing so, we would eliminate the controversy that arises when we start to use the same terminology as the Churches.

That brings me to the third reason for opposing the Bill. On 11 December, the Minister for Women and Equalities said:

“I know that many hon. Members are worried that European courts will force religious organisations to conduct same-sex marriages. The law is complex, but that complexity is absolutely no excuse for misunderstanding the facts. Case law of the European Court of Human Rights, and rights set out in the European convention on human rights, put protection of religious belief in this matter beyond doubt.

The Government’s legal position has confirmed that, with appropriate legislative drafting, the chance of a successful legal challenge through domestic or European courts is negligible.”—[Official Report, 11 December 2012; Vol. 555, c. 156.]

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman know of any case in any EU country where same-sex marriage is allowed in which someone has been prosecuted for holding the view that same-sex marriage should not be allowed?

[Mr McCann]

I am grateful for that intervention, because I am going to deal with that point right now.

The much-vaunted quadruple lock is underpinned by case law. Everyone in the House knows that what makes case law is cases. I am damn sure—as sure as the sun rises in the morning—that a same-sex couple will go to a church or synagogue and demand to be married, their demand will be refused and they will go to court; and we in turn will have to wait to see what new case law is created. By that time, it is possible that none of us will be serving in the House—we may have left politics altogether or indeed left this mortal coil—but in that set of circumstances people will look back and ask, “How did we get into this mess?” They will look back in Hansard and say, “It’s because we made a bad law in 2013, and some politician said at the time that there was a quadruple lock, underpinned by case law.”

Superannuation Bill

Debate between Richard Graham and Michael McCann

Tuesday 7th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr McCann]

I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for that intervention, but he is simply wrong. A minute number of individuals will attract substantial payments; the vast majority will receive a maximum three years’ payment under severance terms and, for early retirement, up to six and two thirds added years. The Minister nodded when I mentioned that the maximum is a six and two-thirds years’ enhancement.

The most important thing about the February 2010 proposals that the previous Labour Government put forward was that they would have protected the lowest-paid civil servants. The cap was two years’ salary, with a maximum payout of £60,000, but given that the average salary of a civil servant is £20,000—that figure has been bandied about a lot in the debate—Labour’s proposals would have protected those individuals. Under the Bill, they face a two-thirds cut, which is unreasonable and, with the greatest respect to Government Members, demonstrates that we are not all in this together. The Bill anticipates that, as a result of the comprehensive spending review, many thousands of civil servants will be made redundant in the months to come, and it effectively says, “While we give you the pain of making you redundant, we’ll also hammer you financially as you walk out the door.” That is unacceptable.

[Richard Graham]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that his comments are focused on the Bill, rather than on the parallel aim of the negotiations with the trade unions? The fundamental aim of those talks, which is to increase the minimum statutory amount for the less well paid civil servants, is critical and fair. Does he support it?

[Mr McCann]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but may I make this point in return? If the February deal was unacceptable to one trade union in the negotiations, it strikes me as logical that that deal would have to be significantly improved in order to make it acceptable to the PCS. I do not get from the Minister any impression that there will be any significant move to improve that deal financially, which leads me to conclude that those negotiations might not be as fruitful as Government Members hope.

[Richard Graham]

Does the hon. Gentleman support the concept of making the proposal to the trade unions more attractive to the lower paid, even if it is less attractive to the better paid?

[Mr McCann]

One of my final points is that the February deal should be put back on the table. That is the simple fact of the matter. That deal represents the best opportunity to reach an agreement, as the shadow Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Tessa Jowell), said.

The Minister said that the Government have proposed a 15-month deal for those who volunteer for redundancy, and from a negotiating point of view I can understand why that might seem attractive, but it will not be attractive to the many low-paid civil servants who work in my constituency. They will see it as a pearl-handed revolver to the temple, implying that they can take 12 months’ pay if redundancy is compulsory, but 15 months’ pay if they go quietly. That is not fair to civil servants.

I gave an example when I intervened on the Minister. Let us take a 42-year-old civil servant with 20 years’ service—I have chosen that age because it is, almost, close to mine. Under the current, pre-February deal, which is in place because, owing to legal action, the legislation has not changed, that individual would receive £60,000. Under the February proposals that the Labour Government put forward, that individual would have received £58,000. Under this Bill, they would receive £20,000 in compulsory terms or £25,000 if they went voluntarily.