Environment Bill (Fourth sitting)

Richard Graham Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 12th March 2020 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We are really running short of time now, so I am going to take two questions and put them to the witnesses. First, Richard Graham, and then Jessica Morden.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

Q My questions will be very quick, but they are separate ones for you both, if that is all right, Chairman, and please—swift answers.

Richard, you have said how important it is to have the cost of collecting waste separated, so that people know what they are paying for, are incentivised and so on. Do you think that those opportunities are actually in the council tax? That is what people are really paying, is it not?

Richard McIlwain: Yes, they are under council tax, and because they are under council tax—

[The Chair]

Sorry, I did say that we would take two questions first. Jessica Morden.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Q Very quickly, as a Welsh MP, thanks for pointing out that there are lessons to learn on recycling from Wales, as the fourth best recycling nation in the world. Are the provisions in the Bill effective in tackling fly-tipping and organised waste crime?

[Richard Graham]

My question was only for Richard.

Richard McIlwain: It is within the council tax—absolutely. People sometimes think that they pay an awful lot for waste disposal, when actually it is quite small as an overall approach to council tax. I would perhaps like to see local authorities being more obvious about the way that council tax breaks down. I know that sometimes you get a letter with your council tax bill and a nice little pie chart, but I think we could be more active in explaining to people exactly what that tax does, which would then allow us at some point to break out waste as a chargeable service, as people would be used to it by then and would see the cost. Also, potentially, they would see the benefits of reducing their waste and having a smaller residual waste bin, because it will save them money.

Do you want me to say more, on fly-tipping?

[Jessica Morden]

Q Yes, fly-tipping and organised waste crime.

Richard McIlwain: The Bill touches on elements of fly-tipping. I think the electronic waste tracking will be a big step forward, but again there are some people who simply do not bother with a written transfer or an electronic system, no matter what. I think it will make the system more effective and more efficient, but I also think that there is work to do to think about how we drive down 1 million fly-tipping incidents every year.

What we need to do, in my opinion, is reform the system of carriers, brokers and dealers, so that it is much harder to become a registered waste carrier. I would then have a big national campaign that makes people aware that if they give their waste to anyone who is not a registered waste carrier, they can receive a £400 fine, or potentially a criminal conviction, because far too few people are aware of that. Make the system better and more robust, and make people aware that they should ask about the system, and I think you could cut off the source of waste to fly-tippers at the very beginning.

[Richard Graham]

Next, for Libby, if I may—

[The Chair]

Sorry, is this an additional question?

[Richard Graham]

Q Yes, I had one question for Richard and one for Libby.

Libby, clauses 49 and 50 spell out in huge detail the opportunities for businesses to consider redesigning their products in a more environmentally friendly way. The Bill also talks about food collection, not only from households but from businesses. What encouragement do you think that gives to businesses to redesign products, and also to local councils to get stuck into anaerobic digesters?

[The Chair]

Before you answer that, can I bring in Abena Oppong-Asare to ask a very quick question, and then it will be the final two?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I think that this might be the last question to these witnesses.

[Richard Graham]

Q There has been quite a lot of discussion about the value of creating a UK REACH, but in a sense the principles behind those decisions have already been established, so the key thing now is really all about implementation. I welcome the fact, Mr Hudspith, that you are broadly supportive of schedule 19, which is really all about—

Bud Hudspith: We are broadly supportive of the whole Bill. We have lots of interest in other aspects of the Bill as well.

[Richard Graham]

Good. But you are supportive of it, I think you said.

Bud Hudspith: Broadly.

[Richard Graham]

Q So what is there in schedule 19 that causes you concern, other than the greatest fear being fear itself? You have made a huge contribution to REACH. It has not always been popular with UK businesses. There have been plenty of complaints over the last decade. REACH has not done anything and everything perfectly, as we all know, so surely you have confidence that, with the range of businesses that we have in this sector, we can create a regulatory body that can do a good job—or do you think that we are now so incompetent that we cannot?

Bud Hudspith: In principle, REACH has been more popular with people such as Unite and various trade unions than it has with many parts of the UK chemical business. What is interesting is that, in spite of all the complaints in the past about REACH, once REACH was under threat it was clear that industry was much more supportive of its continuance. We support very much what people such as the Chemical Industries Association are saying and what the chemical business is saying. Obviously, we have members who work in the chemical industry and we want a strong, thriving chemical industry, because we want it to employ people whatever.

On a secondary level, we are also concerned about some of the things that Michael was raising about the hazards of various chemicals. Although REACH is predominantly environmental, that has a knock-on effect for workplace requirements. If you have a chemical that is on the list or is banned—those things need to happen—it affects our members.

[Richard Graham]

Q I get that, but I am interested in why you think that will be more dangerous under UK regulations than the existing REACH ones.

Bud Hudspith: Predominantly because of the resources and the expertise.

[Richard Graham]

Q But the resources, in terms of the councils that Dr Warhurst was just describing, have not been there as it is. Why will it suddenly deteriorate?

Bud Hudspith: Do we accept a position where things are massively bad and say, “We’ll carry on with things being bad”? That is nonsense.

[Richard Graham]

Q No, but you could take the view that this is an opportunity to increase and do things better.

Bud Hudspith: I think I have already said that, in theory, that is the case, but we are very doubtful about whether that will actually happen.

[Richard Graham]

Q Dr Warhurst, what is your position? You have said that you are worried that there are chemicals on the high street that are not great, because we do not have people from the council wandering around having a look at them and so on. What is your solution to that?

Dr Warhurst: There are two different issues. There is the enforcement of the laws, which is about what the councils are doing and the fact that there is no real national co-ordination of that. That has been entirely the UK Government’s decision, inasmuch as it has been an active decision. That is different from the broader regulatory system. The councils example shows that the UK has not been very effective in this area so far.

On the broader regulatory system, you can put a lot of people in an agency, but they will start with an empty database, and we are dealing with more than 20,000 chemicals in many applications. It is also wrong to assume that there is no opportunity for close collaboration with REACH. The UK currently talks about some sort of memorandum of understanding. Our view would be that it needs to go further up from the countries that it is mentioning at the moment that do not have access.

[Richard Graham]

Q That is a lobbying opportunity, effectively, for you in the chemicals sector, with the negotiators and so on. At this stage, in terms of what is in schedule 19, is there anything that gives you concern?

Dr Warhurst: Yes, a lot of it gives us concern, because we are not convinced that it will provide the protection of public health. The consultation is very limited. The idea that you can replicate REACH—

[Richard Graham]

Q How many UK officials are there in REACH at the moment?

Dr Warhurst: I do not have the figures. I know that ECHA is about 600 at the moment. It was said, a year ago, that the EA and HSE would have something like £13 million a year in full operation. You are dealing with 23,000 chemicals and however many registrations.

[Richard Graham]

Q Nishma Patel, in your view—it is the easiest thing, and I understand it, for everyone to say, “We’re very worried it won’t turn out quite as well as the Government hope it will,” and, “What’s in the Environment Bill looks fine, but how’s it actually going to work?”. What is the opportunity, rather than just the concern?

Nishma Patel: In terms of UK REACH in particular?

[Richard Graham]

Yes, in terms of UK REACH, the Environment Bill and the measures in it.

Nishma Patel: We think the measures in the Environment Bill are adequate and appropriate, primarily because we have article 1 in REACH, which protects the regulation itself. In terms of opportunities, the biggest opportunity for UK REACH is essentially to try to look at what the national issues are, in terms of environmental protection, and to look to address them. That could potentially be in the UK chemicals strategy that is being developed and is under consideration.

[The Chair]

I think this will be the last question.