Sir Richard Shepherd

Debate between Richard Bacon and William Cash

Thursday 10th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), and I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) on his very moving speech. I had the pleasure of knowing Sir Richard, not for as many years as my hon. Friend, but when I was a young man, I was first an undergraduate and then a graduate student at the London School of Economics—Richard’s alma mater—and he was a great hero of mine.

My hon. Friend mentioned a speech that he gave on 21 February 1992. I was living in Berlin at the time, and I spent a lot of time in the British Council library trying to understand what on earth was going on in my own land while I was living abroad learning German. Richard was a beacon for me at that time, and I commend the speech to which my hon. Friend referred. In a book, Edward Pearce, the journalist, referred to Richard’s speech on that date, on Second Reading of the Referendum Bill, as belonging in any anthology of great parliamentary speeches. Colleagues can look it up for themselves. It begins at column 581. I want to quote the last sentence because it has been for me a beacon for many years and showed how well Richard understood the central issue within the European question. He said:

“I say as a last note to the House that our people should ‘not go gentle into that good night’ but should rather ‘rage, rage, against the dying of the light’ that requires us to live under laws that we cannot change or control.”

[Sir William Cash]

I want to add a little bit to what my hon. Friend has just said. He was followed immediately after that speech by no less a person than Mr Peter Shore, the great Labour exponent of dislike of the idea of European government. He said:

“I think that the House will be grateful to the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) for introducing the Bill and giving us an opportunity of addressing the most important issue that has come before us during the lifetime of this Parliament, which will shortly end.

The House will also be grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the clarity and passion with which he argued his case.”—[Official Report, 21 February 1992; Vol. 204, c. 589.]

And there was more besides.

[Mr Bacon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I have that text in front of me. When I was a teenager, my father lived in Canada and I spent a lot of time going over there. Peter Shore was for a while the Trade Secretary or Transport Secretary and tried to thwart Freddie Laker’s attempt to introduce cheap airline tickets. As a very young man, I was extremely interested in cheap airline tickets. It took me some years to realise what a great man Peter Shore actually was, and my hon. Friend has done us a service in reminding us of that now.

In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, may I thank you for the chance to speak in this debate? I hope that we all remember Sir Richard Shepherd for his extraordinary contribution.

United Kingdom’s Withdrawal from the European Union

Debate between Richard Bacon and William Cash

Friday 29th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sir William Cash]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. We have heard a great deal about the process and the underlying reasons for this motion this morning, but we are really dealing with whether the withdrawal agreement should be passed and approved today, and if not, why not. The first point I make in that respect is quite simple and straightforward: under article 4 of the withdrawal agreement, we will, for a significant period, lose control over the lawmaking conferred on the House by virtue of our election as Members of Parliament according to the wishes of voters in general elections. It is unconscionable that, for whatever reason, the House should be politically castrated by the arrangements set out in article 4. For that reason alone, it is therefore unthinkable that the withdrawal agreement should be passed.

I just refer to the state of affairs within the German constitutional court, which takes precedence over all EU laws. That court often expresses rulings insisting that the EU can only operate or legislate in accordance with what the Bundestag has given it, and that EU actions are illegal if they depart from the terms in which the Bundestag gave that power. If that is good enough for Germany, it is good enough for this country, is it not?

I asked the Attorney General whether there will be a withdrawal and implementation Bill even if the withdrawal agreement goes down this evening. I got no answer, just as I received no answer from the Prime Minister to several questions I put to her about whether the Attorney General had given legal advice in accordance with the ministerial code. One characteristic of this debate is that, when we ask difficult questions, we tend to get no answer. That is not good enough, in terms of the accountability of the Government to the House. That is point No. 1, regarding control over laws. It is unconscionable.

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, with whom I have regular discussions. He makes an interesting point about Germany, and the fact that the Bundesverfassungsgericht has often made that point. However, is it not true that that actually amounts to no more than, to coin a phrase, a political declaration by a court? Were it tested in front of the European Court of Justice, it would be shown that German law is inferior to European law in the same way as for every other member state. That is why we in the United Kingdom have to have legal exit and stop being a member state, however painful the route to get there.

[Sir William Cash]

I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but I have to point out to him that, under EU law, it has been made abundantly clear in several cases regarding the constitutional orders of member states—van Gend en Loos, Costa and similar cases—that the European Court asserts superiority over the internal constitutional orders of the country in question. The reality is that the question he and I raise demonstrates a conflict over competence, because, as I have stated, the German constitutional court will not countenance direct contradiction of its own lawmaking.

The next point I wish to make regards the Northern Ireland backstop. I know that many Members are more than familiar with this; we have justifiably spent an enormous amount of time on this question. However, it really boils down to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom. The European Communities Act 1972—[Interruption.]

EU Exit Day Amendment

Debate between Richard Bacon and William Cash

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Richard Bacon]

I never knew we were going to have such a treat this evening, so it is a great pleasure to have the opportunity to ask my hon. Friend a question. It so happens that I have a copy of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 with me. It does say in schedule 7—[Interruption.] Actually, Mr Speaker, it was completely by chance, because I had no idea that my hon. Friend was going to dilate on this matter. I heard the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) saying, first of all, the word “deviation” as if this were some sort of BBC panel show. Then I heard him, from a sedentary position, saying that he had no idea what my hon. Friend was talking about. It turns out that schedule 7(14) states very clearly:

“A statutory instrument containing regulations under section 20(4)”—

for the benefit of the hon. Member for Brent North, that is the section of the Act by which exit day is changed, so it is hardly a deviation—

“may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”

It occurs to me—I invite my hon. Friend to agree with me—that my hon. Friend is doing an enormous service to this House.

[Sir William Cash]

I am extremely indebted to my very good and very close hon. Friend. I am so glad that he has made that point, because I am simply trying to do what I have always tried to do, which is to get past all the fog and ask the central question, which bears on the issue of the sovereignty of this House in relation to that European Union (Referendum) Act 2015, which gave the right to the British people.

The 2018 Act, to which my hon. Friend refers, is the moment in time when we made that decision in this House. Even my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) voted for the Third Reading of that Act. This was, therefore, a decision taken by this Parliament. So forget the fact that these indicative votes going on at the moment, which I regard as a parliamentary bag of liquorice allsorts, are an obfuscation of the fundamental issues. The draft regulations published a few days ago are not in accordance with the 2018 Act, since they do not change exit day to a particular date. Instead, they purport to change exit day to two different dates—the point Lord Pannick referred to—depending on whether the House does or does not pass a resolution that satisfies the European Council decision. I emphasise the words “does not satisfy the European Council decision”, Mr Speaker.

I have raised this matter repeatedly. We have been supplicating the EU. We have given in to the EU. My European Scrutiny Committee last March published a very good report in which we pointed out that we should not accept the terms of reference dictated to us by the European Union. That is where it all went wrong. It went wrong when the European Union (Withdrawal) Act was overtaken by the Chequers agreement, in a pre-planned operation inside No. 10 driven by the Prime Minister and her advisers, the effect of which was to undermine the repeal of the 1972 Act. I say “pre-planned” because the 2018 Act received Royal Assent on 26 June and within 10 days the Chequers proposals had come forward, which morphed into the withdrawal agreement and article 4, the effect of which is to make us subjugated to the rule making of the European Union. That is what went on and it was done deliberately. It was going on while we were actually passing the withdrawal Act itself. I would describe it as a monstrous deceit on the British people.

I will go further. The course taken by the Government in seeking to pre-empt the affirmative resolution has definitely contaminated the lawfulness of their actions. It has, at a minimum, created serious doubts about the legal situation. I draw attention, for those who would be interested, to the views of the retired Lord Justice of Appeal, Sir Richard Aikens, who is entirely clear on this question.

I wrote a letter to the Prime Minister yesterday. I have not yet had a reply. She has not, in fact, answered my question about the ministerial code, which I have asked twice. As far as I am concerned, this statutory instrument should be voted down. I invite the Attorney General to explain whether, as a matter of fact—irrespective of whether he is prepared to disclose his advice, which I think he should publish—the Prime Minister did consult him, as required under the ministerial code.

Self-build and Custom Housebuilding Bill

Debate between Richard Bacon and William Cash

Friday 9th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

I beg to move amendment 1, page 3, line 3, at end insert—

‘(3) Guidance issued by the Secretary of State to authorities under subsections (1) and (2) shall only be issued after a statutory consultation period of not less than three months.”

I seem to be doing a bit of overtime today, but I do so in the spirit of debate, discussion and dialogue, and to probe some of the matters inherent in this important Bill.

Clause 3 deals with guidance:

“A relevant authority must have regard to any guidance issued by the Secretary of State when exercising any function conferred or imposed by or under section 1 or the Schedule.

An authority mentioned in section 2(2)—”

that is pretty much any kind of local authority one can imagine—

“must have regard to guidance issued by the Secretary of State when exercising the duty imposed by section 2, including guidance about identifying functions affected by the duty.”

My amendment proposes a further provision for clause 3. It is a simple proposal that would require statutory consultation of not less than three months, and the guidance issued by the Secretary of State would be given only after that consultation period. The type of guidance issued by the Secretary of State under section 3 might be broad, as might the range of situations that may need guidance. Vanguard councils are experimenting with registers, willingly and voluntarily, which will be important. In a nutshell, it would be a good idea to consider having a statutory consultation period of not less than three months to accompany those arrangements.

My proposal is very simple and one that needs to be well considered. All I need say in conclusion is that I regard the amendment as an opportunity to discuss and debate the question. I am happy to listen to the arguments other hon. Members put forward.

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), which would require statutory consultation before guidance was introduced.

When I originally drafted the Bill, I considered whether there should be consultation before the guidance, and whether it should be statutory. It is worth saying to my hon. Friend that the Bill is quite thin and will work satisfactorily only with guidance—he is right to identify that guidance is an important component. My hon. Friend alluded to the reason for that: the range of authorities that are planning authorities is very wide.

The Bill does two things: it requires planning authorities—the Bill calls them “relevant authorities”—to keep a register; and it requires them to have regard to that register when exercising their statutory functions, whether that is planning, housing, the disposal of land or regeneration. The range of authorities that are planning authorities is wide. For example, an inner-London borough is a planning authority, but so is a national park. In a rural area such as South Norfolk, a rural district council, as we called them in the old days, is a district council and therefore a planning authority. It is not possible to imagine a set of rules or guidance that would be applicable equally to an inner-London borough and a national park. What might be reasonable for us to expect of a planning authority in a mixed rural and urban area with plenty of land to show that it had had regard to its register, might be unreasonable for us to expect of a planning authority in a dense inner-London borough that has much greater land availability problems. For different reasons, it might not be reasonable for us to expect the same thing of a planning authority such as a national park. Any guidance would therefore by its nature be varied, depending on the circumstances.

My hon. Friend mentioned the role of the vanguard councils. He is right that they are crucial. With a small pot of money from the Department for Communities and Local Government, they are experimenting and establishing what works best in terms of establishing and operating a register. The vanguard councils are doing voluntarily and willingly what will in due course become a duty for all councils. The idea is that all councils that are faced with the new duty—the duty to operate a register and to have regard to it—can learn from the vanguard councils about the best way to set up and operate a register, and integrate the running of the register with the council’s planning, housing, land disposal and regeneration functions.

It would be wrong to be over-prescriptive and to place new burdens on councils, especially given that the vanguard councils from which much of the learning will come are at an early stage. I have no doubt that in due course as the Bill is implemented, it will be sensible in most cases for the Department to consult local planning authorities of different types, depending on the nature of the guidance it wishes to issue in different cases. It would particularly be worth consulting vanguard councils, which will have valuable experience to share. That is the point of the vanguards.

My hon. Friend’s proposal to turn the consultation process, which I am sure will happen, into a legal obligation with a statutory three-month consultation period would inevitably create more inertia, which is precisely what the Bill aims to cut through. The aim of the Bill is to start to unblock the logjam of housing supply by allowing customers more say over what they want rather than leaving them little choice but to accept what a big developer tells them they want. The underlying philosophical drive behind the Bill is that if we build more houses as if customers matter, we will end up with more houses, which is what the nation so badly needs. The aim is most definitely not to create yet more process and inevitably more delay, which I fear statutory consultation would do.

I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns, but I hope he will agree that statutory consultation is not necessary and consider withdrawing his amendment.

Bill of Rights

Debate between Richard Bacon and William Cash

Thursday 17th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Bacon]

I absolutely agree. The role of an MP is to be an advocate of last resort. We all know that people come to us when they do not know where else to turn. Sometimes, sadly, they come to us too late, when there is nothing that we can do. Sometimes we see in our surgeries cases about which we think, “If only they had come a bit sooner, we might have been able to act.” I had that happen with a farmer in my constituency who had been made bankrupt by the time he came to see me, by which time it was too late to do anything for him. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Because of the nature of an MP’s work, and the nature of the contact between a constituent who has a grievance and the MP, we should get extra protection.

I mentioned that I would speak about parliamentary privilege, or the right of MPs to speak up for and defend the British people. A quite different case involved an approach made to me by people who were concerned about what was happening at the Manchester College of Arts and Technology, or MANCAT, as it is better known. They approached me in my capacity as a member of the Public Accounts Committee and because of my known predilection for detestation, if one can have a predilection for detestation—my known dislike of the waste of public money might be a better way of putting it.

The case involved MANCAT, which has subsequently merged with City College Manchester, and basically concerned investigations into management practices which had been hampered because MANCAT officials were alleged to have destroyed auditable documents and had reached financial settlements with certain ex-members of staff on the condition that they signed confidentiality agreements—gagging clauses—in their settlement agreements, which were obviously paid for with public money.

The point at issue was that staff felt that they were under pressure from the college to falsify student attendance registers and other funding-related paperwork in order to enable MANCAT to claim extra money from the then Learning and Skills Council. Indeed, one witness was planning to explain the extent of the malpractice at an employment tribunal where she had been in the process of seeking redress for constructive dismissal, but she was offered a financial settlement with a gagging clause, so she could not easily take the matter further.

As a result of the privilege granted to Members of Parliament, I was able to draw those matters to public attention in two Adjournment debates over a period of months. The Guardian later wrote an article on 27 January 2009. It was headed, “College faces fraud claims” and sub-headed, “A Manchester institution stands accused of altering registers to claim extra funding, reports Andrew Mourant”. In my view, and I suspect in the view of most hon. Members, such matters should be brought to public attention. My point is that that would not have been possible without parliamentary privilege and the right of Members of Parliament to speak up for and to defend the British people. That is why I feel so strongly about the matter.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

I totally and absolutely endorse what my hon. Friend is saying. I was much involved in the Damian Green affair—

[Mr Cash]

I accept your point, Mr Bone, and will refer to the matter of my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green). Does the Minister worry that there are moves afoot to adjust, in the light of political correctness, the so-called role of the Member of Parliament and degrade it? Are they not missing the biggest wood for the biggest trees by not realising that the Member of Parliament, who is elected by voters and who, if given privilege and using it responsibly, is the best possible defence for the right of the individual to obtain the protection that they need through that privilege, not for our sake but for theirs?

[Mr Bacon]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is why I labour the point that “privilege” is an unfortunate word. It is better to speak of the right of Members of Parliament to speak up for and to defend the British people, because that is what we are talking about. My hon. Friend is right that those who want to chisel away at the rights of Members of Parliament are chiselling away at the rights of the British people.

At the time of the arrest of my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford, I received a number of e-mails from people who were under the impression that I, as a Member of Parliament, thought that some people, including Members of Parliament, should be able to break the law, and that we were somehow above the law. That was another aspect of the unfortunate phrase, “parliamentary privilege”, because that is how they had understood it. It surprised me—I had always understood it in the terms used by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone—to realise that the majority of people had put a completely different connotation on it. My hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House is listening to this debate, and perhaps Parliament should consider the whole question of what we call such things. It is misleading, and it is important that we understand what we are talking about.

One of the stupidest things I ever heard a journalist say was when someone was defending The Daily Telegraph sting, when Members of Parliament were secretly recorded in their surgeries. I thought that that was an outrage, as did many other people, including many in the media who thought that it was a step too far. I did not catch the journalist’s name, but when trying to defend the sting he said on the radio, “Well it’s not exactly the confessional.” I remember thinking at the time, as I shouted at the radio, as we sometimes do, that that is exactly what it is.

All Members of Parliament know that it is a fairly common experience for people to come to our surgeries and to burst into tears. Last time that happened to me was the week before last, not last week, but two weeks ago. It happens quite frequently, because when dealing with constituents, we are often dealing with them as an advocate of last resort when they have nowhere else to turn. Sometimes they come with a supporter—a friend—to help them, because they do not know whether they will get through it and whether the Member of Parliament will be helpful or a scary and intimidating figure of authority.

I have had people come to see me who looked completely balanced and calm, and in full possession of their faculties, only to discover when I said the wrong thing that I triggered a wave of emotion about things that had happened to them. From being perfectly collected, the constituent would suddenly break down in tears. It is exactly a confessional. I can think of a range of hypersensitive cases at my surgeries involving child custody, marital breakdown, allegations of paedophilia, armed robbery, allegations of corruption, and so on, and other hon. Members will have had similar experiences. Our ability to help people in desperate situations is what we want to protect.

[Mr Cash]

Does my hon. Friend accept that journalists are liable to be at the rough end of this, because of certain aspects of investigative orders, European arrest warrants and so on? Here we go again on the European issue. The plain fact is that the defences that are available through Members of Parliament to protect the public include invasion from external legal requirements that are imposed on us and undermine our ability to carry out our duties. That includes the Bill of Rights and a whole raft of other things. People may find that funny, but it is deadly serious, and the more they laugh, the more stupid they look.