Health and Care Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Philippa Whitford and Jo Churchill

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Jo Churchill]

That would be great.

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

I want to declare an interest as a medical practitioner, although not commonly practising, and as a member of the British Medical Association.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Philippa Whitford and Jo Churchill

Tuesday 13th July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]]

The Government’s plan to give pharmaceutical firms access to pseudo-anonymised data from GP practices in England is creating public concern and distrust, just like the failed care.data project of 2013. Most patients would be happy to see better communication and information sharing within the NHS, as well as for public health and academic research, but are concerned about commercial access to their data. Will the Minister halt the process to allow time for genuine debate and public consultation?

[Jo Churchill]

The hon. Member and I are both passionate about the use of data to enhance patient care, as she outlined. That is the prize here. We are listening. We are taking our time. The data will only be used for health and care planning and research purposes by organisations that have a legal basis and a legitimate need to use the data. NHS Digital will publish all the details of the data we have shared on our data release register. We want to build confidence. We want to build trust. We are listening, but this is an important agenda that we need to get right to deliver better care for patients.

[Dr Whitford]

The problem is that the plan to allow commercial access is going to undermine the public trust in improving digitisation within the NHS, and the Minister will be aware of that. The current plans apply only to the NHS in England, but can she guarantee that the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 will not be used to force commercial access to patient data from Scotland’s NHS? If so, can she explain why the Department for International Trade is advertising access to the health data of 65 million people, which is the population of the whole UK?

[Jo Churchill]

I go back to the answer I gave: we do not allow data to be used for commercial purposes. NHS Digital will not approve requests for data where the purpose is for marketing and so on and so forth. The hon. Member would not expect me to respond on behalf of another Department, but I reiterate that we are communicating and building trust. There will be a public information campaign. We will be working across the professions and across research to make sure that access is appropriate and proportionate. In the Health and Care Bill, we will be redoubling our efforts to make sure people have that confidence.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Philippa Whitford and Jo Churchill

Tuesday 29th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jo Churchill]

I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman, and my constituency neighbour, the Secretary of State, is totally on this programme.

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

In January, the Secretary of State announced that genomic testing would be provided in NHS England to healthy subjects for a few hundred pounds. This ill-advised plan, which would have widened health inequalities, seems to have gone quiet, so can the Minister confirm that the Government no longer plan to sell genetic testing and genomic testing in NHS England?

[Jo Churchill]

As the hon. Lady knows, because we have worked together on this agenda, it is never about selling the product; it is about better patient care and ensuring that we get technology to the patient as speedily as we can for better and appropriate diagnosis.

NHS and Social Care Funding

Debate between Philippa Whitford and Jo Churchill

Wednesday 11th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whitford]

Public consultation is important, and not just in the way it has often been done in the past—“We’ve made a decision, it’s a fait accompli, and we’re coming and telling you about it.” Unfortunately, that is very much what we have heard about the STP process, partly because it has been so short and partly, I am afraid, because it is about budget-centred care, not patient-centred care. Areas have been given a number and told, “If you’re not reaching this number, don’t bother submitting your plan,” and they are working back from that. That will not achieve an efficient, integrated service, so the public must be involved.

Frontline clinicians must also be involved. They work in a service and know exactly what the bottlenecks are and exactly what horseshoe nail is missing and holding a service back. If we have clinician-led redesign, such as I was involved in for breast cancer in my health board 17 years ago, we can track a patient’s path. We can quickly imagine ourselves as a patient, see the bottlenecks and focus investment on them.

I read an article yesterday stating that three hospitals in Manchester have spent £6 million on management consultants to say, “Shut a ward, sack hundreds of people and jack up the parking charges.” I am sorry, but that was not good value for £2 million each.

[Jo Churchill (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Lady for, as ever, eloquently expressing issues that face us all, no matter where we come from and who we are. Does she agree that having good healthcare data for clinicians enables patients to be put through the system seamlessly? Many individuals do not realise that their data do not go from their GP into acute care and then back into social care. If we could improve that—I make a plug for my private Member’s Bill on Friday—it would help patients.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Philippa Whitford and Jo Churchill

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 8th November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Jo Churchill]

Q Just as a small supplementary to that, having run businesses—I would imagine pharma is the same—is it not possible that when you drill down to that sort of level, an unintended consequence will be that where you perhaps support a drug to market by using one that has volume-based profit to it, you may unintentionally stop that development? My other worry is about the rare diseases and specialist cancer areas, where it is highly expensive to develop drugs. We all know that we are trying to close this loophole, and that is right—exploitation around that area is not good for the NHS or, ultimately, patients—but can you see any unintended consequences that you would like to flag before you go?

David Watson: Yes, we recognise that it is very difficult to put a specific cap on a price, because the requirements on a company to produce, discover and sometimes cross-subsidise some of their costs across their portfolio are quite complicated. If the UK system, it seems, wants to drive costs of some medicines down to the lowest possible mark then that is, of course, quite possible, but the consequence if we look at areas such as vaccines, though, is that we end up in a situation in which companies do not invest appropriately in the factories or quality, etc., and then there are potential gaps in the supply of those products. So what we would ask for here is that, when the Department is considering the circumstances in which it thinks the price is too high, it has a dialogue with that company to understand the reasons for the price and what may be going on underneath to ensure the continuity of supply of the product.

[Dr Whitford]

Q I want to ask Mr Watson about the issue that I raised with the previous panel about the repurposing of patent drugs and the concern that we did not pass a Bill to add those purposes to old licences, or to have a new system. What would the ABPI view be on trying to avoid that, for the new purpose, suddenly a pretty similar drug comes back at an eye-watering price?

David Watson: Again, I agree with that, and I understand quite often that medicines are repurposed, not necessarily by pharmaceutical companies, but by other research centres. Quite often, even in that scenario, those companies may expect a reasonable return on their effort to bring that product in, which might mean a price rise. Again, I would say that there has to be a balance between price rises to reward innovation and return on investment and those price rises that are clearly not justified.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Philippa Whitford and Jo Churchill

2nd reading: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons
Monday 24th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whitford]

That is an area that needs to be looked at. A narrow definition that covers only blades and swabs and that does not take into account our hugely expensive infrastructure would not make sense. When we buy those kinds of machines in Scotland, we tend to consider central procurement and assessment, which opens up the potential for massive savings. A lot more work will have to be done in Committee and then in regulation to make the process function in the way that everyone wants it to function.

We need something much more radical. That aspiration may not happen with this Bill, so it will have to come later. Patients in the UK face a delay of about five years to access new medicines. If we compare cancer survival rates, we will see that we are often ahead when it comes to patients with early disease. We are one of the earliest nations doing population screening for breast cancer. However, we start to fall behind when it comes to people with more aggressive or advanced disease. I think that that is where our poorer outcomes and survival rates by comparison with European countries come from, because it is palpable on the ground. Part of that is sometimes the eye-watering initial prices of new drugs. Yes, we can set methods to try to control that, but a lot of those drugs do not get through the system introduced by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence because they are expensive. In my interactions with some of the major pharmaceutical players since I have been in the House, I have discovered an appetite for a different way of doing it. Prices could be much lower but there could be a guaranteed number of patients before a drug became generic. We might need to look at risk sharing, because at the beginning we often do not know whether a drug will really be as good as it is cracked up to be. If the price starts, like some cancer drugs, at £100,000, we will struggle to get it through any of our pricing systems.

Something else we have to deal with is the question of how we expect pharmaceutical companies to make a profit on drugs that we never intend to use. We need new antibiotics, but any brand-new class of antibiotics—we have not had such a class for 30 years—will have to be left on the shelf. The existing system will simply not fund research for such a drug. While the Bill tidies up some of the issues that we face now, we need to do much more blue-skies thinking on equipment, drugs and the way in which we develop different things. Otherwise we will have interminable debates, such as those in which I have participated in Westminster Hall: in one debate, we say that we want more research on, for example, brain tumours, but the next week we have a debate on the fact that we cannot access a brand new drug that has been developed by the pharmaceutical industry in the UK.

[Jo Churchill (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is making an informed and impassioned speech. Does she agree that we are entering a new landscape, and some drugs that have been discovered can be used for multiple treatments for different cancers, or even for other diseases? We therefore need an even more flexible approach so that we can benefit from those drugs and optimise patient outcomes.

[Dr Whitford]

Absolutely. We have entered the realms of using immunotherapies such as Herceptin for cancer. Equally, in the mid-2000s, people went to court to try to access that drug, which halves the risk of metastatic disease—and we end up spending much more on patients with that stage of the disease. We give Sofosbuvir in Scotland for hepatitis C because it is almost curative, so we have fewer new hepatitis C patients. We need a much more rounded way of looking at the costs and benefits of new drugs. The genetic drugs that we are likely to use in future will be even more eye-wateringly expensive, but then again, they may have a bigger impact.

The Bill tidies up loopholes, but I have concerns about the involvement of the devolved Administrations in the design of the schemes, access to data and ensuring that the funding for PPRS, which we use for our new drugs fund, is maintained. There is a call for us to do something much bigger and much more blue skies in future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jo Churchill (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Maggie Throup).

We all know the background and I will not waste everybody’s time by going over it again. We know about the ageing population and about bearing down on the costs, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) and the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) alluded earlier. We know that advances in science are going faster than we can legislate. One of my local clinical commissioning groups, Ipswich and East Suffolk, suffered an exorbitant increase in Epanutin capsules two years ago and had to find another £600,000 in six months. Looking at drugs more widely, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) mentioned earlier, not prescribing paracetamol in that particular CCG would save £1 million a year.

The measures in the Bill aim to manage the cost of drugs. The measure on efficient data collection, so that we start to have good decision making based on evidence, is also most welcome. Last autumn, the Secretary of State consulted publicly on how to address the problem of excessively priced unbranded generic medicines, and the industry and others fed back. They were glad of the dialogue. As I said, drug costs are unsustainable. A saving of some £90 million per health area was identified. My own CCG area could save £1 million per annum from unused repeat prescriptions. Nationally, it would mean that more than 12,000 more community nurses could be employed. We need to start making these decisions about where we want to be spending our money. With the pressure on social care, something alluded to by the right hon. Member for North Norfolk, these are decisions we are going to have to make as a Government and as patients.

The current system allows for some to be inside and others to be outside the system. That limits its robustness. It is for this reason that I support the Bill wholeheartedly. The system does not target those who do not play fair and we need to stamp down on them. It is better patient outcomes that I am passionate about. We all play a part, including the pharma industry, due in no small part to the unique infrastructure in this country. This industry is important to us. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Sir Simon Burns), my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) have all alluded to, we need to be supportive of those companies that work positively for patients and engage in trying to find solutions. Indeed, the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry supports the Government increasing their powers where market failure has occurred. There is a balance to be had to ensure that new drugs are developed.

That brings me to the matter of repurposed and off-label drugs, those that have another use than that for which they were originally formulated, for example Everolimus, Rituximab, Cycloserine, Viagra and Thalidomide. As the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) said, Thalidomide was originally developed for morning sickness. Lately, it has been found to be very beneficial for the treatment of some cancers and skin conditions. We need to understand new uses for approved drugs for the speediest of transitions from bench to bedside. As they have not gone through new trials, we need to be mindful that they are not new drugs; and just because the target is, for example, prostate cancer and not breast cancer, these drugs should still be costed accordingly.

[Dr Philippa Whitford]

I wonder whether the hon. Lady remembers the time we spent in the House last November debating the Off-patent Drugs Bill. I flagged up the concern that a doctor prescribing a drug with a licence for a use takes precedence over an off-patent drug that may actually be the same. With the sort of gaming we have seen, there is a real concern that drug companies will tweak a drug in the slightest manner and then start selling it to the NHS at hundreds and thousands of pounds, when in actual fact an off-patent drug would do the same job. That has still not been dealt with.

[Jo Churchill]

I thank the hon. Lady for making the point so succinctly. I am also grateful to the Secretary of State for his clarification and the comments that have been made about the medical technologies industry, which I believe needs looking at. I would be grateful if we could know whether the savings made are likely to be reinvested in patients, particularly given my position as chair of the all-party group on personalised medicine, and in the latest medicines and treatments.

The Bill is designed to stop individuals making vast sums of money and taking advantage of a loophole. I back the Government’s aim of value for money and fair prices for optimum patient outcomes. I am heartened by the cross-party support for the Bill and look forward to it making positive progress.

Access to Medical Treatments (Innovation) Bill

Debate between Philippa Whitford and Jo Churchill

Friday 29th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Dr Philippa Whitford]

I wonder whether the hon. Lady will clarify what she is saying. The database that is referred to in the Bill will share information on drugs and trials that ought to be available to anyone, whether a pharmacist, a GP or a doctor. It is simply about information sharing. Is she referring more to a database of patient information from which we can learn in the future? Obviously, that is outwith the scope of the Bill, but it has been held back by the various data challenges that have been faced.

[Jo Churchill]

I apologise. Yes, I have confused the two, because I really believe that if we are not careful, what we do today will have an effect on our ability to bring that second broader database to fruition, which would give us the information we need to drive the trials, the life science industry and so on. Databases need to be fit for purpose. I could not have put it better than the hon. Lady did. We want the database that we are talking about today to be fit for purpose, but we do not want to put too many constraints or too much rope around it if that will stop us moving forward with clinical trials and with the whole area of genomics and patients.

I want every life to mean or have meant something. A patient should be able to choose to give knowledge as their legacy. Data hold the answers—the answer for my constituent whose two-year-old had a brain tumour; the answer for a family I know who have diabetes in several generations; the answer for a family member whose humour is tested by Parkinson’s that attacks his body. Personalised medicine should be a reality. As was pointed out in a paper yesterday, we are doing great things with CRISPR—clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats—and across the piece.

Like me, every patient is somebody’s parent, partner, child or friend. That must not be forgotten. If the database we are discussing allows for information to be given that is appropriate to the individual, with care taken by the clinician right through the pipeline, it has to become a force for good. We should not wrap it up in too many constraints, but should allow it to develop. We must allow the Under-Secretary of State for Life Sciences to give us a lead in how to proceed in this field in the most effective manner.

The use of data offers the possibility to accelerate medical trialling from seven to two years and to link research together to find new insights. My glasses are not rose-tinted. I would want assurances about the use of my data, as any sensible person would. I want the recommendations of the accelerated access review to be implemented. The use of health data will be central to solving this country’s health challenges, not least in terms of cost, and its economic challenges. Our medical future will be uncertain unless we unleash the potential of information about patients for patients. I therefore support the Minister’s proposal.