Water Companies: Sewage Discharge

Debate between Philip Dunne and Gareth Thomas

Monday 15th November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I appreciate the opportunity to speak in this debate. I join others in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) on opening the debate. I want to underline in particular the figure that she used: 39 million tonnes of raw sewage was dumped in the River Thames in 2019. As someone who loves walking by the Thames, occasionally swimming in it, and certainly canoeing on it, that figure gives even me pause for thought.

The contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey), for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury), for Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes) and for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) were very powerful in their critique of the ownership of water companies. Since privatisation, there has been a 40% real-terms hike in bills, almost £60 billion in payments to shareholders, and more than £50 billion in debt loaded on to water companies to make those payments to shareholders.

One of the problems with the argument made by the right hon. Members for Ludlow (Philip Dunne) and for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale), and by the hon. Member for Keighley (Robbie Moore), is that it glosses over the issue of ownership and, in particular, the fact that annual investment in water supply infrastructure was lower in 2018 than in 1990. That rather suggests that there has been, for some time, a serious question mark about whether our privatisation is delivering.

[Philip Dunne]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to defend my remarks. I made no remarks on the subject of privatisation. As he has raised it and accused me of having done so, I ask him whether he recognises that the amount of capital investment by the water companies in the 10 years prior to privatisation was half the amount invested in capital treatment works in the 10 years post-privatisation.

[Gareth Thomas]

The right hon. Gentleman will have to forgive me. I was concentrating on other things in the 10 years before privatisation—I am not quite that old. If he shares the Opposition’s concerns about the quality of performance of the privatised water companies, I welcome that.

I recognise that the Minister is not likely to give a commitment today to bring the water companies back into public ownership of one sort or another. I will therefore suggest a third way. We could maintain pressure on water companies to bring down the amount of sewage dumped in our streams long after the news cycle has moved on to other issues by giving the consumers of water companies more power, perhaps in the form of a requirement that any increase in bills—or if the Minister were willing to be radical, any increase in the salary of the chief executive and board—has to be approved by the consumers of that company. There should be a water users consumer committee for each water company, with real power to hold to account the board of that company. At the moment, only two committees, without any substantive powers, cover the whole operation of the English water companies. They are clearly not having much impact. I urge the Minister to take away the need to give consumers more direct power over and say in the operation of the water companies on which we all rely.

NHS Sustainability and Transformation Plans

Debate between Philip Dunne and Gareth Thomas

Wednesday 14th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

I am going to make some progress.

I turn now to the timetable and the progress that has been made so far. Each area was asked to work together over the first six months to draw up its initial thinking into a first draft plan by the end of June. Those plans were individually reviewed by senior leaders from NHS England and NHS Improvement during July and August. Each area is now in the process of developing its STP, with a view to submitting a worked-up plan to NHS England in October. The plans, as one would expect, will vary in their proposals, but all are expected to demonstrate a shared understanding of where an area is in relation to the three challenges set out in the five year forward view and where they need to be by 2020-21.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He was very generous the last time I had an opportunity to intervene on him.

Part of the concern in my constituency about the north-west London STP relates to the fact that Harrow receives less NHS funding per patient than any other part of London. For some months we have sought a meeting with a Health Minister to discuss that issue. Is the Minister prepared to receive a delegation from our clinical commissioning group?

[Mr Dunne]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind words about my willingness to take interventions from both sides of the House.

I am interested that the hon. Gentleman should mention funding allocations. Across the NHS, the allocations are a legacy of the formulas that were set in place by the Labour Government, of which he was a member. People across the country, not least in rural areas such as Shropshire, cannot understand why the funding per capita is much less generous in some parts of the country than in others. I am taking an interest in that and would be willing to sit down with him and other colleagues to understand the particular circumstances in north-west London, which we will have to do after the coming recess.

Returning to the progress that is being made, all the plans are expected to present an overall strategy for their area and to identify the top three to five priorities required. In the most advanced plans, we are also expecting areas to set out how they will deliver a number of national priorities, including on mental health and diabetes. Some will build on the early work of vanguard or Success Regime joint working, which has been developing better co-ordinated care models over the past year or so.

Military Credit Union

Debate between Philip Dunne and Gareth Thomas

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Dunne]

I think she is indicating that she did not mean that, and I am pleased to hear that, because there is no reason for it.

Citizens Advice has said that it is dealing with a significant number of cases of service personnel and their families who get into difficulty with debts at high interest rates owed to payday lenders. Those lenders appear to be specifically targeting the armed forces because some personnel have problems with credit ratings. The hon. Members for Harrow West and for West Dunbartonshire both mentioned some of those payday lender adverts, and the extortionate rates of interest that they charge. I searched the internet to see what claims those companies make. Entering “armed forces loans” into the search engine generates a list of companies promising no credit checks, rapid payment and 100% satisfaction. One website even depicts a smiling soldier in uniform giving a thumbs-up in front of the Union flag, with the claim that it is the

“Number One lender to the military”.

[Mr Thomas]

The Minister accused me of persistence, so as he is five minutes into what is, to be fair, a very interesting speech, will he tell me whether he will support a feasibility study on payroll deduction, and meet me to discuss how we might get quicker access to credit union products for armed forces personnel?

[Mr Dunne]

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman seems to want to bring the debate to a premature conclusion. We have plenty of time left, and I am sure, given that he called the debate, he would like to use as much of it as possible. He already asked that question in his remarks, and I hope to deal comprehensively with all his questions before the debate finishes.

I referred to the website because of the impression that may advertently or inadvertently be given that websites directed at the armed forces carry some endorsement from the armed forces. That could not be further from the truth, but it highlights the risks for the Ministry and the service branches in any involvement in the provision of financial products, should personnel or their families get the impression that the military was endorsing a particular product. Such a financial product would carry the same kinds of risk as any other regulated entity, and we take that seriously.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dunne]

The Government are keen to support the development of credit unions but we are not keen to be the operator. The funding is available to provide support. I am not familiar with all the detail about what the DWP funding has provided, but I can certainly look into that matter and write to the hon. Lady if she would like clarification. Nevertheless, as far as I am aware, it is not the business of the DWP to establish credit unions. I think that it is providing support for existing or start-up unions being established around the country on an initial basis, effectively like providing start-up funding for a business.

[Mr Thomas]

Of course the Minister is right that one would not want a military credit union to be run by the Secretary of State for Defence, or even by a talented junior Minister such as himself; one would want it to be run by its members. However, what the Ministry of Defence could do is help to facilitate the establishment of such a credit union and a feasibility study that was specifically focused on what role the MOD might play to help to achieve that objective.

[Mr Dunne]

Indeed, and not for the first time the hon. Gentleman is pre-empting just what I am coming to in my remarks; he is very prescient.

It is important that any organisation that undertakes the establishment of a credit union does so with its eyes wide open and is aware of the risks that might be involved. From our perspective, in the event that we were to provide support for an organisation, we have some responsibility for the savings of service personnel, to ensure that those savings are in an environment where they will be properly stewarded, managed and regulated. That said, we are minded to support any suitable organisation with the wherewithal to put in place a credit union to support the men and women who serve in our armed forces.

To that end, I will update the House on where the Department has got to in the discussions that were identified by the hon. Gentleman in his remarks. The Department has already brought together relevant parties to form a working group to look at precisely this issue. It includes the DWP, the Treasury and the Association of British Credit Unions Limited, as well as service charities such as the Royal British Legion and the three service benevolent funds. A number of those stakeholders were present at meetings hosted in January and February by the MOD. There was broad support for the credit union concept and a number of parties expressed their willingness to become involved, but unfortunately at that time none of the individual charities stepped forward to take the lead. Subsequent to those meetings, however, we have had further approaches from some of those organisations that attended them. ABCUL, which was referred to earlier, has been in touch and it has indicated that it is keen to take these discussions forward. We, too, stand absolutely ready to do so.

The hon. Gentleman has asked repeatedly about the prospect of the MOD funding a feasibility study into a military credit union. We are of a mind to support one or more organisations that wish to take the lead in investigating the feasibility of a credit union, but we do not think that it would be appropriate for us to take the lead. As and when an organisation steps forward, we are willing to work with it on how we can best support the establishment of a credit union, but we think that actually establishing a credit union would be best done by an organisation that is already one of those we have been talking to and that is already embedded with relationships with service personnel and their families.

[Mr Thomas]

I want to understand exactly the Minister’s point. If a charity or a credit union were to come forward saying that it believes it has the capacity or interest to provide such a dedicated military credit union and to get it up and running, would there potentially be the prospect of support in financial terms as well as in the crucial area of payroll deduction for a military credit union?

[Mr Dunne]

I am not in a position to commit the Ministry’s budget here and now. What I am willing to do, as I think I have already indicated, is to offer further support to explore the possibility of establishing a military credit union. If an existing credit union felt that it had the resources and the experience to bring to bear, that would be a very positive development; equally, if an existing service charity felt that this was an area that it wished to explore, that would also be very welcome. I am not closing the door to providing assistance for a feasibility study, but I will not commit at this point to conduct one without knowing to whom I might be making such a commitment.

[Mr Dunne]

The subject of payroll deduction has been raised by a number of hon. Members. We make payroll deductions in certain areas. Insurance services were specifically mentioned as possible services for a credit union to provide and it was said that a payroll deduction might be a way of helping to fund insurance premiums. We already make such deductions for armed forces personnel. We have a payroll deduction scheme that is financially supported by the Government, over and above our merely facilitating contribution payments. That is to ensure that life insurance is available to armed forces personnel who are on operations, irrespective of their role. That is a specific product that is funded through payroll deduction.

[Mr Thomas]

I am grateful to the Minister for what he just said on that subject. However, may I specifically ask him whether the MOD now accepts that if there were a credit union that it had confidence in regarding the ability to provide financial services to armed forces personnel, it would be willing to facilitate payroll deduction for members of the armed forces to join, contribute to and pay into such a specific military credit union?

[Mr Dunne]

Again, we are talking about quite a number of hypothetical steps here. I am certainly willing to say that if we get into discussions with a serious, credible entity that is willing to establish a credit union, we can consider the possibility of payroll deductions as one means of providing either interest payments or investment through the union’s savings products. However, in the absence of knowing which party we would be dealing with and the suitable structures that would be placed around it, I cannot commit to do that.

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that military payrolls are not a uniform or simple thing. The issue strays rather beyond my departmental responsibilities, so for me to commit other Ministers and other elements of the Department to things about which I am not expert would be career-inhibiting. I will not do that, but I certainly undertake that, if we pursue discussions with the credit union, the issue can be on the agenda.

[Mr Thomas]

I would not want to limit the Minister’s career in any way, given how helpful he has been in this debate. On payroll deduction, I gently suggest to him that the NHS has some equally complex systems, and many parts of the NHS are able to do it. My last specific question is whether he is willing to commit to asking the relevant Minister—I appreciate that he is filling in today—to meet ABCUL, Plane Saver and me. Those organisations think they might be in a position to offer a credit union service now, before a dedicated military credit union is established.

[Mr Dunne]

The hon. Gentleman referred to Plane Saver before, and I am not aware that it has directly approached us. We have clearly had an approach from ABCUL. It participated in meetings earlier this year and wrote again last week, perhaps prompted by sight of this debate. I am confident that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who has responsibility for defence personnel, welfare and veterans, would be willing to meet the hon. Gentleman and ABCUL. If he wanted to bring Plane Saver along, it would be welcome, too.

The hon. Gentleman asked some specific questions about the promotion of credit unions within military publications. Were the credit union to be established with support from the military, it would be more than welcome to take space in the military publications. I cannot, however, commit to the charging basis on which that space would be available; that would be a matter for the normal procedures for each publication. He asked whether we could institute a ban on payday lenders advertising in military publications. This Government are not in the business of prohibiting freedom of speech. Payday lenders might be unethical, but they are not unlawful, so we should not ban their adverts. We should, however, look to support the credit union going forward.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) asked whether we could underwrite a scheme, but I have to disappoint him. The Ministry of Defence budget might appear to be large, but it appears from the inside to be somewhat constrained. We have to devote our budget to our front-line duty, which is protecting the nation. We are willing to provide opportunities to access military publications and that kind of thing, but we are not in a position to underwrite a financial offering to our personnel.