King’s College Hospital Foundation Trust

Debate between Philip Dunne and Chuka Umunna

Tuesday 12th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

The right hon. and learned Lady said on the radio yesterday,

“just because they’re the regulator, when these judgments have to be made, doesn’t mean that they are actually right”.

I have to ask her about that, in the light of the comments made by NHSI, the regulator. I will give her a couple of quotes. Jim Mackey, who was until recently the chief executive of NHSI, has said:

“Honestly, I don’t think they have in my time hit a single set of their re-forecasted numbers”.

The current chief executive, Ian Dalton, has said that no other trust in the country

“has shown the sheer scale and pace of the deterioration at King’s”.

This is not just about the numbers; it is about the way in which the trust is managed.

[Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)]

Have you been there?

[Mr Dunne]

I have visited the trust, and I have met the chairman and finance director. The brutal reality is that they were not addressing the problems as they should have done, and as is being done across the NHS.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dunne]

As I have indicated, the chief executive of NHS Improvement said yesterday that no other trust

“has shown the sheer scale and pace of the deterioration at King’s. It is not acceptable for individual organisations to run up such significant deficits when the majority of the sector is working extremely hard to hit their financial plans, and in many cases have made real progress.”

That is from the regulator responsible for putting the trust into special measures for now.

[Chuka Umunna]

The “brutal reality”—to use the Minister’s words—is that the staff at King’s, which also serves my constituency, are doing all they can in impossible circumstances. If we are honest about this, we on both sides of the House have perpetuated the fiction for too long—over decades—that we can have Scandinavian levels of public services on American levels of taxation. That is why I ask him to heed the call of the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), and many others across the House, and set up a proper convention to look at what is a sustainable model, not just for King’s but for the whole NHS, so that our constituents can continue to get the services they deserve.

[Mr Dunne]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s support for the staff, and I have already paid tribute to the hard work and commitment that they are showing to their local population. His question regarding a royal commission is rather beyond the scope of this urgent question and rather above my paygrade.