Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Peter Heaton-Jones and Kevin Foster

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Peter Heaton-Jones]

The Government have made a commitment to continue to publish the data annually. They have been very clear about that fact. When it comes to the relationship between those measurements and the eradication of child poverty, under the previous Labour Government the number of households where nobody worked doubled and in-work poverty increased: the Government missed their child poverty target by 600,000.

The Bill, as passed by this House, does not redefine poverty to exclude income, as some of its opponents often say. That argument assumes that measuring income is an effective, helpful or comprehensive way of measuring poverty in the first place. It is, in fact, none of those things. In that respect, the 2010 Act was flawed in its approach. The current income measures enshrined in the Act show that the number of children in relative poverty can actually go down in a recession and up in times of growth. That is simply perverse. Furthermore, the measures incentivise what is often known as a “poverty plus a pound” approach, where families can seemingly be moved out of poverty without any change whatever in the underlying factors that got them into the position of low income in the first place. The Act is simply not doing what it is intended to do.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

It is interesting to hear my hon. Friend’s points. Does he agree that under current measures the only way completely to eliminate relative poverty would be to collapse the economy completely and make absolutely everyone poor?

[Peter Heaton-Jones]

It sounds like my hon. Friend has been reading the Labour party’s manifesto. The 2010 Act is flawed, and in seeking, in effect, to reinstate its provisions, the Lords amendments are similarly found wanting.

Let us look at what the Bill, as passed by this House, actually does in its current format and why their lordships’ amendments are not in my estimation constructive in seeking to reverse these measures. The Bill enshrines in legislation the Government’s commitment to end child poverty and to improve children’s life chances. It focuses on the actions that we know will make the biggest difference to the life chances of children and young people—both now and in the future. We need measures that drive the right action to tackle the root causes of poverty rather than just tackling the symptoms. That is why the Bill introduces the new life chances measures of worklessness and educational attainment.

The Government’s policies in targeting life chances importantly look at outcomes, not inputs—it is a comprehensive approach—recognising that the real route out of poverty is through work, not welfare. Some 74% of previously less well-off, workless families who found work have escaped “the poverty trap”, if one can use that phrase.

The Bill seeks to replace the wholly arbitrary measure that a household is in poverty if its income is below 60% of the median wage. That is totally arbitrary. In a recession, with all households’ income tending to reduce, it gives the completely false impression that fewer households are in poverty because their relative income is seen to rise. It is totally perverse—a recession leading to less poverty. The figures simply do not add up. It is a discredited system, and it did nothing under the previous Government to tackle the underlying root cause of childhood poverty. I therefore submit that these amendments are wrong to try to reinstate that old discredited system. It beggars belief that some people believe that we can base our strategy for improving children’s life chances on income measures that would suggest that the last recession somehow caused a significant fall in child poverty. Of course we should not do so, but that would be the effect of the Lords amendments if this House accepts them.

Local Government Finance (England)

Debate between Peter Heaton-Jones and Kevin Foster

Wednesday 10th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Peter Heaton-Jones (North Devon) (Con)]

I will start in the way I concluded the debate on this issue in the House on Monday, by saying, “Thank you” to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for listening carefully to the representations made to him and for making significant improvements from the draft settlement. As there has been quite a bit of to-ing and fro-ing here about what local authorities might think, let me add to that list. I have in my hand a piece of paper.

North Devon District Council was dissatisfied with the draft settlement, as I made clear in the House after its introduction. I spoke to the council at great length. It was not happy about being unfairly treated. It believed, as did many, that the settlement did not tackle the unfairness between rural and urban authorities, and it asked me to do something about it.

After much intense lobbying, the Secretary of State has come forward with a new and improved final settlement, and this afternoon, at about half-past 2, the council issued a media release—not from the Conservative group, but from the neutral officers of the council. The headline reads, “Council welcomes Rural Services Delivery Grant increase”, and it continues:

“North Devon Council has welcomed news that a government grant is to be increased, which will help benefit rural areas like North Devon… It means, instead of £77,000 identified in the draft settlement for North Devon…the district is now likely to receive £308,000. Meanwhile, for 2017/18, the council is now likely to see its Rural Services Delivery Grant come in at £249,000, instead of the previously predicted £134,000… Executive Member responsible…says: ‘This is really good news for North Devon and other rural districts.”

That goes to the heart of the problem that I and many other Members had with the draft settlement: it was unfair. There followed, however, a great deal of lobbying from us and a great deal of listening from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. It is disappointing, therefore, to hear the Opposition describe this as a fix to head off a rebellion—talk about glass half empty. My right hon. Friend listened to colleagues, responded positively and significantly improved the final settlement. We should all welcome that.

The funding of adult social care is a serious issue. In north Devon, and Devon as a whole, with its older demographic, of course it presents a challenge, but, again, the Government and the Secretary of State have sought, in the final settlement, to do something positive. During Labour’s 13 years in government, when it could clearly see this challenge looming—the demographics were there for all to see—it did absolutely nothing to address the problem. It left it to this Government to do something about it, and as always happens, the electorate recognised that only a Conservative Government would do that.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

We have heard a lot about party politics. Given that the extra money for Devon covers Exeter, has Labour objected to additional money for social care in Exeter?

[Peter Heaton-Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) does not seem to be in his place. Neither are any Liberal Democrats here for this important debate, despite their trying to sell themselves as the party of local government that wants to build from the ground up. There are not many of them, but not one of them has come to speak in this important debate.

I thank my right hon. Friend again for listening and making this significant improvement, but we need to go further to address the long-term unfairness between rural and urban settlement grants. My hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) said that £130 million was needed for the rural grant. I hope the Government can look at that aspiration, but in the short term, I welcome the settlement, as do Devon County Council and North Devon District Council. It shows what can be achieved when Conservative MPs and local authorities and a Conservative Government work together, listen and get a settlement that I hope we can all support in the Lobbies this evening.