Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (England)

Peter Bone Excerpts

Monday 15th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

The advice that has been given to Ministers by Dr Williams should be taken seriously, including that on the safety of firefighters, because the safety of firefighters impacts on the safety of the work that they do on behalf of members of the public in fighting fires. If a lower figure is recommended by the working party, the Minister will have a big problem, because Dr Williams has told her clearly that a number of firefighters will not be able to maintain their fitness up to the age of 60.

There is another problem.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Hilary Benn]

Time is very short and I want to bring my remarks to a close.

While claiming that firefighters will be able to maintain their fitness, the Minister has simultaneously reassured the House that there will be redeployment opportunities. However, she has provided no evidence of that being the case. At oral questions on 10 November, the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) asked:

“Given that the Minister has recognised that there remain severe reservations about the fitness test for firefighters, is she saying that she will pass regulations that will ensure that firefighters who fail the fitness test will not lose their jobs, because there are insufficient numbers of back-office jobs in the fire service to accommodate them?”—[Official Report, 10 November 2014; Vol. 587, c. 1165.]

The answer from the Minister was, “Yes.” If firefighters believed that answer, there would not be a problem, but they do not. The reason is that the Minister has been completely unable to explain to the House how she intends to ensure—that is an important word—that firefighters who find themselves in that position will not be dismissed. Indeed, when I asked the Minister last week in a written parliamentary question

“how many redeployment opportunities there are within the Fire and Rescue Service to accommodate firefighters who are unable to maintain an operational fitness standard”,

she replied:

“We do not keep data on redeployment opportunities for firefighters.”

If the Department has no data, the Minister does not know, so how exactly can she make the promise that she has made? Where will the jobs suddenly come from?

The Minister then tries to rely on the Government’s promise to put fitness principles on a statutory footing, but there is a problem with that, too. The national framework is only guidance and cannot be binding because section 21 of the Fire and Rescue Act 2004 requires only that fire and rescue services “have regard” to the advice. In case there is any doubt, the Local Government Association employers said in response to the consultation:

“Whilst an FRA would of course have to be mindful of the content of the Framework it would not be compelled to comply with it”.

If fire and rescue authorities cannot be compelled to do so, where is the guarantee?

The alternative would be to pay an unreduced pension. My final question is where the Government’s guarantee is on that. I have here today’s written ministerial statement, which I have read carefully. Where is the guarantee? There is not one. I also have here the letter that the Minister wrote to me today, in which she says:

“The Framework also reminds fire and rescue authorities of the fact that they have the opportunity to retire firefighters over 55 on an unreduced pension if they so wish.”

That is not a guarantee. There is no guarantee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Penny Mordaunt]

The issue of mental health is rightly being given considerable focus with an additional £4 million of the LIBOR funds being made available to Mind, the mental health charity. In the remainder of this Parliament, I will be working with women’s groups in the fire service to examine what further we can do to promote good practice on issues of direct concern to them, and I would like to place on record my thanks for the time they have already taken to meet me.

It of course remains the case that some firefighters may choose to leave the service before age 60, and the scheme facilitates that by allowing firefighters to retire early on a cost-neutral basis and, as Lord Hutton recommended, with an actuarially fair reduction to reflect the longer time the pension is likely to be paid.

[Mr Bone]

Will the Minister explain which firefighters will be affected? Surely there must be a 10-year protection for existing firefighters at a certain age. What sort of protection will be provided; when is it going to kick in; when will this first affect firefighters?

[Penny Mordaunt]

We have chosen to protect those who are closest to their retirement age—everyone within 10 years of that age.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), and I certainly agree with his tribute to firefighters. I find myself in a very difficult position tonight in deciding how to vote on this statutory instrument. The very first debate I ever had in Westminster Hall was on Rushden fire station, which the Conservatives were fighting to keep open and the Labour county council wanted to close. In Northamptonshire we have an excellent fire and rescue service. In some respects it leads the whole of Europe. [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) want to intervene? I will tell the hon. Gentleman, while I am at it, that Tom Pursglove, the excellent Conservative candidate for Corby, and I are today launching a campaign for more fire cover for north Northamptonshire. We will go up there tonight and—[Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Corby want to intervene?

Turning to firefighters’ pensions, there is one issue that seems to cut through all of this. I have spoken with the chief fire officer and the FBU representatives and seen firefighters on the picket line, and I went to see Green Watch in Wellingborough. In all these disputes, we should ignore the FBU and the employers and listen to the actual firefighters and what they tell us. The one problem is that firefighters are genuinely worried that when they get to 55 they might, through no fault of their own, lose their pension. If the Minister could give me an assurance that those firefighters would be redeployed or—

[Penny Mordaunt]

I am very happy to give those assurances—[Interruption.] We have done that.

[Penny Mordaunt]

If someone fails a fitness test through no fault of their own and they do not qualify for ill health retirement, they will get a redeployed role or an unreduced pension. That will be put on a statutory footing in the national framework—a full, unreduced pension, if not an alternative role.

[Mr Bone]

Having heard the words of the Minister, I think the whole House can now support the statutory instrument.