Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)

Debate between Pete Wishart and Thomas Docherty

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) on securing this important debate. He will know that I have spent many a fine afternoon on the terraces of East End Park as a native of Dunfermline, supporting the mighty Pars. My affections have now transferred to the mighty Saintees of McDiarmid Park in Perth. I know that it is very much to the hon. Gentleman’s disappointment that almost the entire length of the Scottish premier league separates Dunfermline from St Johnstone just now.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned two other clubs in his contribution. It was a bit remiss of him, when talking about Cowdenbeath, not to give their nickname, which I am sure that you, Mr Betts, are bursting to know. They are known as the Blue Brazil, a nickname that could never be more deserved. I remember when my grandfather used to take me to watch the cup games against Cowdenbeath, being a native and resident of West Fife, where the league support was for Dunfermline. I went to Central Park to watch the cup games when Cowdenbeath were competing. That was a forlorn activity back in the 1970s, because on only a couple of occasions did Cowdenbeath manage to get past the second round. He also mentioned Brechin City, which used to be in my constituency, in north Tayside. What is notable and significant about Brechin City is that it is the only professional football ground with a beech hedge as its border. A lot of Scottish football fans liked to go along. There were the bridies at Forfar Athletic and the beech hedge at Brechin City.

Enough of my tour around the football grounds of Scotland; let us get on to business. I think that everybody here is a football fan, but where on earth are the rest of my Scottish colleagues? There is only the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. We get so few opportunities to discuss Scottish issues, particularly important Scottish issues about football. We are all proud that we represent football clubs in our constituencies. I have St Johnstone, a fantastic team doing well in the premier league, but where are my Scottish colleagues this afternoon? It is not as if they get loads and loads of Scottish business in this House. Not one of them could be bothered to turn up today to discuss the biggest crisis that is facing our national game. That is a disgrace, which says a lot about my Scottish colleagues when it comes to debating these important issues.

We have never had a crisis like this one. It is totally unprecedented and how it will end is anyone’s guess, but the nature and the face of Scottish football will probably change dynamically because of what is going on.

[Thomas Docherty]

First, some colleagues have been detained at Select Committees this afternoon. Secondly, does he agree that many colleagues are nervous about discussing what has happened with Rangers, because it is difficult to have a rational, sensible debate about the Scottish game without many of our constituents taking umbrage at us?

[Pete Wishart]

I do not know that that is true. I know that there is a bit of interest in this debate: one only has to look across the corridor from here. That does not excuse anything, however. This is important and it is unfortunate that there are not more Scottish colleagues here to debate what is probably the biggest crisis that we have seen in our game. This deserves and requires proper debate and it is unfortunate that we will not have that today, because this crisis deserves to be dealt with as sensitively as possible.

I listened carefully and closely to the remarks of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. Where I can go along some way with him is that there is a real desire for a solution to this problem. There has to be a solution, because it is almost inconceivable to imagine Scottish football without Glasgow Rangers. They have 130 years of history and tradition. They have huge support—some 50,000 home fans go to watch Glasgow Rangers at a home game every second week in the city of Glasgow. To have that taken out of our game would have a significant and deep impact on the ability of the SPL to continue to produce a platform that will engage and encourage people and ensure their support.

It is not just about ticket receipts. When Rangers come to St Johnstone, it is the biggest weekend that we have in Perth. It is not just the inflated gate that we get by playing one of the old firm; it is also some of the activity spin-offs for Perth. It is not just about the pubs on match day. Glasgow Rangers supporters may choose to take a day either side of the game—the Friday night or the Saturday evening—so our hotels and restaurants are busy. There are also the other activities that go on within the city. To lose that would be to lose a significant amount of income and economic activity, which would be very much missed.

There is also the issue of television rights. As the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife said, they involve a fraction of the sums for television rights in England, but they represent a massive income for the Scottish game. If there were no Rangers, what impact would that have on the television rights sold to ESPN, Sky and the BBC, which play a massive part in the incomes of so many other Scottish football clubs? We would also miss the drama and spectacle of old firm games, which are enjoyed and appreciated not only in Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, but throughout the world.

[Thomas Docherty]

Just for the sake of clarity, it might help to reiterate that if either half of the old firm is not in the SPL, the contract with the TV companies falls. It is therefore in the SPL’s interests to treat Rangers as a special case because of those knock-on effects.

[Pete Wishart]

I am glad the hon. Gentleman mentioned that. He is absolutely right that that is one possible consequence of losing Rangers. That is why we should do all we can to ensure the ongoing survival of Glasgow Rangers football club.

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Gentleman is spot on. There is, of course, talk and speculation about what happens if Rangers are unable to come out of administration. Indeed, the Scottish press, particularly the sporting press, have a fascination with the old firm, and we read about it almost every day. However, the hon. Gentleman is right that some of the small businesses that are expecting payment from the administrators will suffer a massive loss. That is a real issue, and I am grateful to him for bringing it up.

Football is our national game. All our football clubs play an enormous part in our economic activity and make a real contribution to our communities and constituencies. The Fraser of Allander Institute estimates that the old firm’s economic importance to Glasgow and the rest of the Scottish economy amounts to £190 million. More than 3,000 full-time jobs depend on SPL football, and £200 million is spent on related commercial activities in Glasgow alone. According to the Rangers annual report, the direct economic activity generated by the club is in the region of £56 million.

Most importantly, there is also the issue of what happens to the 331 people directly employed by Rangers. They must be absolutely paramount in our considerations, and I hope some solution is found so that they can continue to serve in their jobs.

This is not, however, just about clubs’ contribution to our economy, important and significant though it is. There is also the value professional clubs have for our communities, and the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife mentioned that. We can all see the infrastructure that exists and the clubs our young people are encouraged to participate in. We know that our football clubs make an immense contribution to our communities. According to the SPL’s 2011 community report, 20,000 people participate in community projects weekly, and SPL clubs spent £8 million on community activity, which is no small sum.

There are also the fans in Scotland. I know the audience for SPL football has diminished, but 3.2 million people still attend SPL games each season, and a further 76 million watch them on ESPN, the BBC or Sky. Football is therefore a big business, which contributes much to our economy and our communities, and we must ensure that we respond to the current crisis with the sensitivity it deserves and requires. Scottish football is in a precarious state, and it remains a fragile product, so it can ill afford to lose one of its major protagonists.

Of course, this is not just about Rangers. Several of our clubs are teetering on the brink of financial collapse and ruin. I just wish they could all be like St Johnstone, which is run so perfectly and effectively by Geoff Brown, its chair. It never gets into debt, it always ensures it looks after its liabilities and it never has a problem with HMRC, but that is not the case with many of the clubs in the SPL. I am thinking not just about Rangers, but I will not mention the other clubs, because we all know which ones are experiencing real difficulties and pressures.

We have seen what happens when clubs cannot meet their responsibilities and liabilities. Dundee and Livingston went into administration. We have also seen one SPL club—Gretna—go to the wall in the past 10 years. It was not a particularly great example, and I doubt whether other clubs would like to replicate its business model.

These are tough times, and gates are falling. We have heard from the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) about the pressure of football wage inflation and how it must be brought under control. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife was of course right to mention that SPL football is totally different from the English premier league or first division, and only the wages in the old firm are similar. However, some clubs have tried to replicate what we have seen elsewhere and to buy success by buying expensive players. They have tried to compete with the old firm and they have got into all sorts of difficulties. That is probably one of the reasons why Dundee football club, in particular, experienced the difficulties that led to its going into administration. There is a demand all the time to buy more expensive players, because that is what the market dictates, and clubs are encouraged to fork out money. However, gates are falling, and there is any amount of competition from other activities for the time of constituents, who might otherwise go to watch football games.

We all accept that our football clubs must meet their financial obligations. Everybody in every business must pay their tax—it is as simple as that. They must pay it on time and they must ensure that any business plan is totally predicated on meeting their tax liabilities. However, I am sure I am not the only Member in the Chamber who will have put the case for businesses and individuals in his constituency who have got into trouble over their tax liabilities. I do not know how many letters I have sent to HMRC on behalf of small businesses and people who have got themselves into difficulties. It is absolutely right that people also make representations on behalf of Glasgow Rangers because of its significance to Scottish football and the number of jobs that depend on it, as well as its history and tradition, its success and its value to the SPL.

The club is in a mess. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the current regime, which has been a total disaster—we cannot call it anything other than that. Once Craig Whyte took over its debts, something was always going to happen. He did not have the money to ensure the club could get out of its difficulties. What he did with Ticketus was appalling, and there will now be an SFA investigation into the Ticketus deal. There will also be an investigation to see whether Craig Whyte is a fit and proper person to run a football club, and we will have to see the details. Again, it is the fans who suffer, and the people who work in the club have been the major recipients of all the bad news and all the doom and the gloom.

Right now, the administrator is responsible for running the club. In the next few days, Duff and Phelps expect to announce the first round of job losses, which will first impact on the playing staff. There are outstanding issues of payments to other clubs, and I have heard the representations from Dunfermline football club that it should be paid. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife is right that money should be paid to clubs that are owed it, and Rangers have no right whatever to retain it. However, the job losses show the real impact that going into administration has on people’s careers and jobs.

The hon. Gentleman talked about the Scottish Government’s role, and they stand ready to offer assistance to anyone affected by job losses. They have said they will do all they can to keep in contact with the administrator and to be available to provide support and assistance if there are job losses. In addition, there is the PACE—partnership action for continuing employment—programme in Glasgow, which has offered to provide any assistance it can if there are job losses. PACE has offered Duff and Phelps assistance almost daily to take things forward, and there have been several conversations to that effect. This is a developing and emerging situation, and Scottish Ministers and PACE are keeping their eye on it.

[Thomas Docherty]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can provide some clarity, because he speaks on sport for the Scottish National party. He will be aware of reports in this morning’s newspapers that the Scottish Government are apparently offering all the assistance they can to the Scottish open, and the assumption is that financial assistance may be forthcoming. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the Scottish Government are going to put money into the Scottish open, they should also see what financial assistance they can provide to the SPL?

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Gentleman is right, and I am grateful for that assistance for the Scottish open. I am sure that he will be the first to recognise that the input that the Scottish Government have made to Scottish football is significant—the £25 million that was announced towards the national performance centre, for example, the £8 million through CashBack for Communities and the £4 million going into the refreshed youth action plan for the next four years. That shows the Scottish Government’s support for Scottish football and their commitment to ensuring that it will continue to develop in the next few years. That will be welcomed in football throughout Scotland.

I want to mention a couple of initiatives. Unfortunately there was some appalling behaviour two weeks ago at Glasgow Rangers, in the home game against Kilmarnock, which shows that there is still a massive problem with sectarian chanting. I am delighted that for the first time the Scottish Government have put in place legislation to tackle that effectively. It was not supported by the rest of the parties in the Scottish Parliament, but at last something will be done to try to get rid of that curse from the national game.

[Thomas Docherty]

I regret the fact that at the end of a good speech the hon. Gentleman is trying to bring in party politics. I went to the Dunfermline and Rangers game as a guest of the police, early in the season; the procurator fiscal was there. The PF, the clubs and the police were clear about the fact that that legislation, which no one else in the Scottish Parliament supported, was unnecessary, and unworkable.

[Pete Wishart]

It is the police who have been telling the Scottish Government that the legislation is required. We have had that debate in the Scottish Parliament, and thank goodness that behaviour will at last be challenged effectively. I welcome the fact that the SNP Scottish Government are deciding to take on the issue head on, and trying to get that appalling scourge out of the Scottish game.

There are other issues in Scottish football, but the one that we are debating is the big one—the thing that we need to get tackled and sorted out. I hope that HMRC will work sensitively with the administrator, and that we will get a solution that will ensure that it will be paid what it is owed. The main thing is that HMRC should secure the outstanding liabilities that Glasgow Rangers has towards it. Let us hope that we get a solution that will allow Glasgow Rangers to come out of administration—a solution that will mean that as much as possible will be done to retain the staff who work on its behalf; that we will have a Scottish premier league worthy of that title and enjoyed by its supporters; and that we can go on ensuring that that product can be developed, and made entertaining and exciting for people not just in Scotland but worldwide.

Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill

Debate between Pete Wishart and Thomas Docherty

Friday 9th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty]

As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am studying for a history degree from the Open university, and the course that I have just finished is about colonial medicine. I have to say to the hon. Member for Aberconwy that some of the policies for the health service that the Secretary of State for Wales wishes to introduce very much remind me of colonial medicine in the 19th century. Perhaps that is what my colleagues in the Welsh Labour party were referring to.

We have an imperfect system, and I do not think that anybody believes that the system that we have created is the finished product. It was never intended, in the 1990s, to be the finished system. The hon. Member for West Worcestershire was frank enough to say that she does not necessarily provide answers to the problem; she has merely sought to pose questions today.

It might be helpful to many Conservative Members if I explain that West Lothian is a part of Scotland just outside Edinburgh. If they had been here for the excellent maiden speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice), they would have heard a good account of the large section of it that he represents. I am conscious that many Conservative Members have never had the opportunity to come to Scotland; they really should, if they get the chance, come up and see it. We are hosting some of the Olympic games next year.

On the West Lothian commission that is to be established, will the Minister undertake that the commission will also look at arrangements in the other place—an issue that the hon. Member for West Worcestershire touched on? I would be fascinated to learn how the Government intend to designate Scottish, Welsh or English peers. The most obvious example is the Leader of the House of Lords, Lord Strathclyde; I am not particularly aware that he has a Scottish connection of note.

[Pete Wishart]

We have no absolutely no ambition to repatriate the likes of Lord Foulkes and Lord Forsyth.

[Thomas Docherty]

I suspect that we might provide the hon. Gentleman with a list of some of the peers whom we would like to repatriate. I would not suggest for a second that any of my colleagues would be on that list.

Does the House believe that if someone who represented a Scottish constituency went to the other place they would be a Scottish Member of Parliament? Are they Scottish because their title is Scottish? Is it because they once visited Gretna Green, which I think is the qualification of some people who have served in the Scotland Office? Those issues need to be dealt with by the West Lothian commission, in addition to the matters raised by the hon. Member for West Worcestershire.

The most obvious issue that we need to deal with concerns Ministers. Going back to the point made by the hon. Member for Aberconwy—and I am not too familiar with the thinking of my Welsh Labour colleagues on this—as the result, I believe, of an oversight at the election, the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) did not stand for a Welsh constituency; she represents an English constituency. The Prime Minister has eight very able Welsh Conservative MPs from whom to choose a Welsh Secretary—[Interruption]—and some Liberal Democrat MPs as well. However, we have an England-based Secretary of State.

--- Later in debate ---

[Thomas Docherty]

I think that the hon. Gentleman must have misspoken, because he just said that he would vote only on issues that affect Perth and North Perthshire. Does that mean that he would not vote on an issue that affected the Western Isles?

[Pete Wishart]

This is the kind of nonsense that we get from opponents of the West Lothian question. The logic of the argument seems to be that the Scottish Parliament should not vote on issues affecting only the Western Isles or the highlands of Scotland. In case he does not know, this is about legislatures, about responsibility and about democratic accountability. We have a Scottish Parliament, thank goodness, and we have a Westminster Parliament down here. He takes the view that he should vote on English-only issues. I take the view that it is wrong for me to do so as they do not affect my constituents, which is why I do not do so.

[Pete Wishart]

I thank the Minister for getting that absolutely right; I should always get him to answer my questions for me.

[Thomas Docherty]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Pete Wishart]

I want to make some progress, if I may, and I think that we have probably dealt with that particular issue.

The Scottish National party did not take an interest in the Health and Social Care Bill that was debated here this week, although there were technical and consequential measures in the Bill that were to do with Scotland. Those measures, however, were dealt with by the Scottish Parliament. A legislative consent motion was passed in that Parliament that agreed to allow this House to legislate in that way, so why any Scottish Member should need to vote on that Bill, I do not know. If English Members want to destroy their health service through this part-privatisation, that is a matter for them. I can only say thank goodness that we have an SNP Government in Scotland who will not embark on that kind of nonsense and who will never adopt such a rubbishy part-privatisation approach to the health service there. The Health and Social Care Bill is a matter for English Members. That illustrates the beauty of Tam’s question, posed all those years ago in all its rhetorical glory. Would I like English Members of Parliament trying to impose their view in Scotland? Of course I would not. Scottish Members should therefore give English Members the same respect when it comes to English decisions, however faulty or ridiculous they might be. If English Members want to do that to their health service, that is up to them.

[Thomas Docherty]

This is a passionate and compelling speech; it is almost bringing tears to my eyes. However, the hon. Gentleman voted on the Bill that introduced tuition fees in England. As the Minister said, the Scottish Parliament now has powers over such matters, so the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), by his own logic, should not have voted on that Bill. Was it not political opportunism, rather than some great principle, that led him to do so?

[Pete Wishart]

That is a very good point, and I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned it. I shall deal with tuition fees at greater length in a moment, because they relate to my concerns about the Bill and the Minister’s proposed commission. If the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) will bear with me, I will come back to that point, and if he is unhappy with what I have to say, I will allow him to intervene on me again.

Because of our track record on this matter, we very much welcome the establishment of the commission. This issue really needs to be resolved. Tam asked the question 33 years ago, and it is now time to address it. We proposed something very similar to the hon. Lady’s proposal several years ago, when we suggested that Standing Order No. 97 should be extended to cover the certification of certain Bills as English-only. At that time, there was a Labour majority that had a lot to gain from Scottish Members voting on English-only legislation, so our proposal was rejected. Now we have a Conservative Government who have most to gain from Scottish Members not voting and from pushing through the measure to try to resolve the issue. I do not care about the political interests of the Labour and Conservative parties; I want us to approach the matter with a sense of equality and decent fairness—I think that Government Members would treat us in the same way—and to do the right thing for Scotland, for England and for the other nations of the UK. I therefore support setting up the commission. I would like to ask the Minister some questions about it, but, in principle, it is welcome.

During the course of the commission’s work, we will again hear all the nonsense that I have heard for 10 years—all the red herrings and the reasons for not acting. We all accept that there is no elegant answer to the West Lothian question while we are part of the Union. There will always be anomalies and further questions—that is the nature of trying to resolve a difficult conundrum when there are devolved legislatures and a sovereign Parliament at Westminster. I have my answer—hon. Members have heard it—but as long as we are part of the Union, there will be anomalies. We will hear all the stuff about two classes of MPs, the sob story about Scottish Members not getting to be Ministers for devolved matters such as health and education, and the suggestion that English Members should not vote on Scottish-only issues such as the Scotland Bill. Those are all red herrings and nonsense—simply obstacles put in the way of dealing with the issue effectively.

I concede that there are already two classes of Members of Parliament. I am a Scottish Member and a good section of what English Members do in the House is devolved to my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament. That immediately sets me apart from English Members. For goodness’ sake, we should just be relaxed about it. Let us accept that we are two classes. All we are doing is simply trying to recalibrate the different types of classes by not allowing Scottish Members to vote on English-only matters. We should simply accept that there are two classes of Members and get on with it.

However, there are problems and concerns for us in the Bill. They mostly come down to certification of what is Scottish-only business. Tuition fees is a very good example because it shows why we have to be careful. There must be a Scottish input into the commission, perhaps from someone who knows about the workings of the legislatures throughout the United Kingdom—for example, former Presiding Officers. There should be good contacts with the Scottish Government, who could alert the commission, or whoever examines the matter, of genuine difficulties and consequences for Scotland. The Bill fails in that respect because it provides only for Secretaries of State to advise the Speaker about certification of the territorial impact of legislation. Perhaps an amendment could be tabled in the other place that would allow the Secretary of State to consult his or her opposite numbers in the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly to ensure that those legislatures are relaxed and happy about the territorial certification of specific measures.

Tuition fees sum up the difficulty for me, and for us all. Tuition fees are nominally English. Under the certification that the Minister and the hon. Member for West Worcestershire have in mind, the Speaker would almost certainly have said that the measure was English only. Yet it was an absolute disaster for Scotland. It was the worst possible type of legislation for us and we therefore voted on tuition fees—I think that all Scottish Members did. I voted on it because the Barnett consequentials were enormous. Scotland will lose a fantastic amount of money if England goes ahead with tuition fees. The measure also opened up a funding gap between Scottish and English universities. That would have been fine if we were independent—it would be our business and up to us to get on with it. However, as a devolved nation, we do not have any other economic tools to help us deal with those sudden issues. We are left with our fixed budget. It is therefore right that, as long as we are part of the Union, we express our concerns about what might be considered English-only legislation.

If we reach a solution, I hope that there will be consultation with the Scottish Government to find out whether there are huge issues for Scotland, which we have to tackle as long as we are part of the Union. I was grateful to the hon. Lady for saying that financial aspects would be included in any future draft of such a Bill. It is imperative that they are included.

I believe that the job of we Scottish Members is to ensure that the Scottish interest is represented, and that nothing is done that would have a detrimental impact on our constituents. That is why we all voted on the issue of tuition fees, and I think that we were right to do so. However, there are other Bills that do not have the same impact on Scotland. We should leave them well alone, and I believe that we will continue to do so for as long as we consider them at Westminster.

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman is advancing a relatively cogent argument. Does he agree that the Secretary of State is the wrong person to make the judgment specified in the Bill?

[Pete Wishart]

I do not care who eventually makes the decision. I am quite happy for it to be the Speaker. The only issue that concerns me is the need for consultation with the Scottish Government. They must be able to say that they are comfortable and relaxed about the fact that legislation applies only to England. The House must recognise instances in which legislation will have knock-on effects on the Scottish Parliament. The tuition fees legislation in particular was disastrous for Scotland: we had to deal with a number of unforeseen consequences because of issues in England.

I welcome what has happened, and I congratulate the Government on eventually doing something about this problem. The hon. Lady has led them by the nose. I do not know whether it is the Liberal Democrats who have been blocking such action, but they are just about the worst offenders in this regard. Their number is massively inflated in relation to their share of the vote in Scotland, but they come down here and consistently vote on England-only issues. As well as having a quiet word with their one Scottish Member about voting on England-only issues, the Conservatives should have a quiet word with their coalition partners, because, as I have said, they are just about the worst offenders.

As we proceed, we should ensure that we consult and involve people who deserve respect because they have done the groundwork that was required for the establishment of our Parliament and Assemblies in Scotland. We are getting closer to Tam’s answer. I have presented my solution, and thankfully the Scottish people see it as a solution as well. For the first time in three years, support for independence in Scotland is now in the majority. We are approaching the point at which the Scottish people will have an opportunity to decide on the future of Scotland, and about whether we should come to this place at all. I believe that we are about to experience one of the most incredible defining moment in Scottish history, when they say yes and the hon. Members for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), for Dunfermline and West Fife, for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) and for Motherwell and Wishaw (Mr Roy) will no longer come down here to vote on English issues. I cannot wait for that day to come.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Pete Wishart and Thomas Docherty

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

I am sure that Mr Hoyle would not allow me to be tempted into discussing AV, but the mess that Labour Members get into when dealing with voting arrangements dumbfounds me. They seem to be for and against AV, just as they seem to be for and against proportionality in the Scottish Parliament. They are split from top to bottom on both issues, and they will be found out when they are questioned on the subject in the next few weeks.

[Thomas Docherty]

I appreciate that as the SNP’s Chief Whip, the hon. Gentleman believes in absolute loyalty to a single position. It might help him to understand that we have a free vote on the issue because we believe in a broad consensus.

[Pete Wishart]

I am no longer the Chief Whip, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for promoting me back to that distinguished role. I look forward to the outcome of a free vote in the Labour party. It will be fascinating. We will pay keen attention to who supports the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire in all this. I hope they are true to their convictions—[Interruption.] Oh, it is not a free vote, we hear.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Pete Wishart and Thomas Docherty

Monday 7th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

I rise to oppose the clause. This is part 2 of the great Calman clawback. Presumably we are going to see an attempt by the Tory-led Government to take powers away from the Scottish Parliament, once again with Labour complicity and support.

The Bill is characterised as one that gives powers away to the Scottish Parliament, but the previous clause and this clause demonstrate that one hand most definitely giveth, but the other most definitely taketh away. We oppose the clause, first, because it is anti-devolutionary, and secondly, and most importantly, because it is not necessary. The Scottish Parliament is totally in control of Scotland’s health services. Scottish Ministers are responsible to the Scottish Parliament and, in turn, to the Scottish people for the structure and delivery of health services. We have our own national health service in Scotland.

The Scottish Parliament has a direct interest in ensuring that Scotland’s particular needs and circumstances are taken into account in decisions made about the health service in Scotland, including the regulation of its work forces. Since 1999, we have developed a different NHS in Scotland—one based on the needs of the Scottish people.

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman talks about the regulation of work forces. Does he therefore believe that we should have a separate Health and Safety Executive for Scotland?

[Pete Wishart]

There would probably be a strong case for that. The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. In Scotland, all the regulations for the regulation of health professionals that existed before the 1998 Act came into force are continuing to be regulated at a UK level from the Department of Health. That includes nearly all doctors, nurses and dentists. The Scottish Government have a little toehold into regulation as regards important new professions that have been designed since the 1998 Act came into force—for example, operating department practitioners, dental nurses, dental technicians, orthodontic therapists, pharmacy technicians and practitioner psychologists. It is incredibly important that we do not lose that toehold.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Money) (No. 2)

Debate between Pete Wishart and Thomas Docherty

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I should like to return to the issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), having perhaps given the Minister slightly more time to reflect on the genuinely valid points that my hon. Friend raised. I know that colleagues from other parties were also nodding in agreement when he was raising them.

The returning officers in Scotland are up to the same trick that they were trying to pull before the 2010 general election, when the then Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) gave a clear instruction to the returning officers that they could not delay the start of the count for that general election in Scotland until the following day.

Let me place the Minister under notice that I shall seek two guarantees from him and the Deputy Leader of the House. The first is that he speaks urgently to the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland—I suspect he will have a number of opportunities to speak to them in the Division Lobbies in the next four hours—to get them to set the record straight on the Scotland Office position on the counting. Will the Minister also guarantee—I will take him at his word, as he is an honourable Gentleman—that either he or the Secretary of State will write to the returning officers in Scotland to remind them that they receive a payment for carrying out these duties?

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Does not the hon. Gentleman share my absolute and utter surprise that neither the Secretary of State for Scotland nor the Under-Secretary have yet written to returning officers to get this issue clarified and resolved?

[Thomas Docherty]

I fear that in some ways I am not surprised, because we have learned over the last nine months that the Secretary of State for Scotland is like Macavity the cat. When it comes to any issue—whether it be the coastguard, defence or anything else—he is posted absent. The hon. Gentleman’s point is valid because the Secretary of State should be writing to returning officers to remind them that they receive an additional payment for carrying out their duties in unsociable hours, so there is no reason for the count not to happen. If the returning officers insist on delaying until the following morning, will the Minister guarantee that those payments will be withdrawn from them and their staff? Why should we pay them for a service that they are not carrying out? Will he also confirm that he will write to returning officers to remind them that, during our Wednesday evening debate on the Standing Order at the end of last year and during the course of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, he gave an explicit guarantee on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government that the count would take place as soon as practically possible—namely, straight after the polls close in Scotland?