Trident Renewal

Debate between Pete Wishart and Gemma Doyle

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

Let me tell the hon. Gentleman about the front page of a national newspaper in Scotland today showing that 60% of the Scottish people are now opposed to nuclear weapons. That is people in the constituency of the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North, in my constituency, and in the constituency of the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). This is now a popular movement that is beginning to gain traction.

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

Let me clarify this for the record. I have seen the figures that the hon. Gentleman mentions, and he excluded the “don’t knows” in that poll. In fact, fewer than half, not 60%, of people hold the position that he describes.

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Lady and I have been through lots of opinion polls in the past year. If she is so confident about her position, she should go out on the hustings and explain why Scottish Labour is a nuclear party that is prepared to spend £100 billion on Trident renewal. That is what she will have to do, and I wish her all the best in trying to get re-elected on that basis, because there is now an alternative.

There is a new way of doing things. The Westminster establishment and the Westminster elite that run this place are beginning to experience real electoral difficulties. People across the country are recognising that the old ways of doing things are not good enough. Cold war weapons for an austerity future: that is what both parties are promising, and that is what will be rejected at the next election.

Scottish Referendum (Trident)

Debate between Pete Wishart and Gemma Doyle

Thursday 7th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Pete Wishart]

They will be negotiating not with me but with someone further up the pay scale. Today, I have heard some of the evidence presented in the Scottish Affairs Committee, and it would be an absolute pleasure and joy to sit down with the trade union representatives for Faslane to describe and explain our ambitions for Faslane. We have clear and ambitious projects for a conventional base at Faslane. We will try to reassure the work force and to make sure they understand what we are trying to achieve, instead of being told some of the myths we have heard today.

[Gemma Doyle]

I am disappointed the SNP defence spokesperson is not here. I think this is the second debate on Trident he has been absent from. When I challenged him on this issue, he said we could not have negotiations until after Scotland had taken its decision. What exactly is the SNP’s policy?

[Pete Wishart]

We want to do what was set out in the Edinburgh agreement, with both Governments planning for the outcome so that we achieve the best possible result for a yes or no vote. We will enter the negotiations with the best possible intent, and we will hope for the best possible outcome. All we are trying to do now is encourage the UK Government to approach the discussions on the same basis. So far, they have refused to do so.

It is nice to have the hon. Lady here, but where, for goodness’ sake, is the shadow Defence Secretary? He gave a rambling interview the other morning. When he was challenged about Labour policy on nuclear weapons, he said:

“We’re not a unilateralist party. I mean, that happened in the ’80s, that was a flirtation with surrealism. We’re not a unilateralist party and we’re not going to become a unilateralist party.”

He added:

“We’re in favour of the UK retaining a nuclear capability”.

The Labour party is totally committed to remaining a nuclear party; it will renew Trident, and it will probably replace it like for like—that is what we have with the Labour party.

I have no idea what the report is intended to achieve. The rather silly Scottish Affairs Committee set out to blow a hole in the yes campaign’s ambitions for Trident, but all it has done is to suggest how easy those ambitions are to achieve—thank you, Scottish Affairs Committee. To be clear, the Committee is one of those strange, dysfunctional Committees; it is a really bizarre concoction just now. It is composed exclusively of Unionists, and it produces reports for Unionist consumption.

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[Pete Wishart]

As usual, it is only from the Scottish National party that opposition to what is proposed will be heard. The hon. Gentleman suggests that I should stick to my script, although no one else who has taken part in the debate has been anywhere close to doing that, which is slightly ridiculous.

The Labour party would replace Trident, like for like.

[Gemma Doyle]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Pete Wishart]

I have been speaking for 11 minutes, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) said, and want to allow others to speak.

We now know that the Labour party will continue to be committed to Trident, so the only way to get rid of nuclear weapons from Scotland, and clear us of that scourge—that immoral weapon of mass destruction—is to vote yes in the independence referendum.

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[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Rosindell. I am grateful to have the opportunity to contribute to this important debate and to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash), who made an important contribution, bringing the perspective of the vital international context to our discussions. As she said, the defence and security of any nation or state is the key responsibility of a Government.

Debates on the future of the nuclear deterrent have been and will continue to be an important aspect of the referendum discussions that are already well under way throughout Scotland, and indeed the rest of the UK. The significance of the issue has been demonstrated by the decision of the Scottish Affairs Committee to focus one of its inquiries fully on the subject. Furthermore, we have Members from throughout the rest of the UK attending the debate today, which shows how important it is. The report, which I read with interest, raises a number of key points about the deterrent and points out possible outcomes and situations that might arise. The facts about the available options for the future of the deterrent, were Scotland to leave the UK, leave no one feeling particularly satisfied with any of the potential outcomes.

The UK’s nuclear deterrent has been the cornerstone of our national security for more than half a century, and although the cold war divisions have gone, they have been replaced by new threats. We support retention of the minimum, credible, independent nuclear deterrent. The last Parliament voted to proceed with the initial stages of renewal, and we support that decision, although I am aware that some hon. Members here today voted in a different way in Parliament.

We eagerly await the outcome of the Lib Dem alternatives review. I confirm that the comments attributed to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), the shadow Secretary of State, and to me in this debate are not the case. I stated clearly that we had not committed to like-for-like renewal of Trident, which is why we are awaiting the outcome of the alternatives review. Our position has been clear throughout. If the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) does not believe me, CND and Labour CND have tweeted that I said that here today. If he will not take my word, perhaps he will take their word. I do not often rely on them for comments.

[Pete Wishart]

Will the hon. Lady clarify Labour’s position on the nuclear deterrent? What is its trend of thinking? Will a Labour Government renew Trident or not ?

[Gemma Doyle]

I am happy to repeat that as often as the hon. Gentleman wants, but I suspect that colleagues would like me to move on. I have said again and again that we are awaiting the outcome of the alternatives review and, as I have just said, we are committed to retaining a minimum, independent, credible, alternative deterrent. Before deciding how that will be provided, we await the review, as do all other parties in Parliament, and we will then see what it says. I have told the hon. Gentleman this about four times, and I hope that he now understands the position.

I am a little concerned about progress on the review. I understand that the Royal Navy has not been asked for its opinion, and it should be. I believe that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who represents Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey and who is leading the review, does not even have a pass for the Ministry of Defence building, so I am not sure what work is ongoing, but everyone is eagerly awaiting it.

We absolutely support a policy of multilateral disarmament, and like everyone who has spoken here today, I want a world free of nuclear weapons. The last Labour Government made progress in reducing the number of warheads from 300 to 160 just before the 2010 election.

The Committee outlined a number of alternative possibilities for the deterrent’s future, and it is clear that if the people of Scotland vote to break off from the rest of the UK, a separate Scotland will have to decide, in negotiation with the UK Government, the future of the nuclear deterrent, whoever the Government of a newly separate Scotland are. I do not presume, as the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire did, that that will be an SNP Government. The nationalists have, as with all other issues, made a series of assertions without any basis, so it falls to us to consider the reality.

The Committee considered that if the Government of a newly separate Scotland decided that they no longer wanted to house the nuclear deterrent or, conversely, if the Government of the remaining UK decided they did not want to base the capability in a foreign country, one option might be for the deterrent to be decommissioned and taken out of service. However, that does not seem likely because the UK Government are committed to retaining a nuclear deterrent.

The Committee also looked at the options for the short-term relocation of Trident, and specifically how the UK’s allies might be involved in providing a temporary base. One option would be to work with the USA at its submarine base in Georgia, but, as the Committee noted, questions would probably arise about the perceived independence of the capability. For most people, independence is a key desire behind having a nuclear deterrent, and the same argument might be applied to the Committee’s consideration of stationing the deterrent in France. Although it is closer and the geography would make things easier, there might be problem with finding sufficient space to house it.

A more likely outcome is that the UK Government would seek to relocate the capability elsewhere in the UK. Hon. Members will be aware from the Committee’s report that relocation of the deterrent is not a simple process. Apart from identification of an alternative site and the issues of physical relocation, the exercise would be extremely expensive. Some sources have suggested that it could cost £20 billion to £25 billion. The previous Minister for the Armed Forces made it clear that the cost would dwarf the £3.5 billion cost of recent upgrade work at Faslane.

I have visited the naval base on the Clyde. Any other hon. Members who have done so will know that it is akin to a small town with a range of facilities and accommodation, as well as the necessary equipment and infrastructure to provide a centre for our submarines.

Estimates that the deterrent will remain in Scotland for anything up to 20 years while a new base is developed raise serious questions, which need to be addressed and which cast significant doubt on the nationalists’ view that voting for separation equals unilateral disarmament. I am far from convinced that even unilateralists would see that as a victory, and comments during the debate today back that up. I believe in multilateral disarmament, and there would not be a victory for anyone in simply moving the nuclear capability deterrent 165 miles south. Surely our interests are best served by working internationally with our allies, partners and other countries towards multilateral disarmament.

The UK is committed to retaining a deterrent, so the most likely outcome is relocation to elsewhere in the UK. That would mean removal of Faslane and with it thousands of jobs on the base and in our wider industry, the future of which is far from certain under these plans. The report states:

“Several witnesses in our inquiry commented on the vacuum of discussion on how separation would affect defence in Scotland”.

More than one major defence employer in Scotland has recently expressed similar concerns to me that there is so little detail about the nationalists’ plans for separation and defence in a separate Scotland that it is extremely difficult seriously to engage in any way with the question of what separation would mean for defence and the defence industry in Scotland. That is a fair comment.

Most sensible people would say that if the case has not been made and information is not there, the answer must be no. The nationalists are certainly failing to put any meat on the bones of their randomised top-line numbers. I can give them some numbers: 6,500 jobs at the naval base, about half and half military and civilian, and a conservative estimate of 4,500 jobs supported throughout the wider economy with £270 million pumped into the Scottish economy every year. That is what the nationalists want to scrap. The shop stewards are right to demand answers. They deserve to have the information to give to their members so that we can have a proper discussion.

The nationalists want to assure us that when they have told the Royal Navy to take all its submarines, nuclear-armed and nuclear-powered, out of Scottish waters, nothing will change at Faslane and Coulport. I have even heard a west of Scotland MSP claim that more people will be employed at Faslane after separation. I hope that they are beginning to realise how ridiculous their claims are, because they are insulting my constituents. The nationalists should make no mistake. Without the Vanguard subs, there will be no Faslane and no jobs, but a seriously wounded local economy.

When the Navy has gone, the civilian jobs will go, because they support the Navy. An employer to whom I spoke recently acknowledged that removal of Faslane would mean starting with a blank sheet of paper. It would not mean, as the SNP want to say, that jobs will be protected.

The SNP says that it would have a joint service headquarters as well as basing the Scottish navy at Faslane, but they will not give us any detail. I watched the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire nodding vigorously as Members challenged him, asking him very politely to provide information in his speech, but he gave not one jot of detail. There was nothing at all. Even the retired Lieutenant-Colonel Stuart Crawford, whom I would describe—I hope I am not misrepresenting him—as an independent military expert who is sympathetic to the idea of independence, stated that the maximum number of jobs that he could see Faslane supporting would be around 1,000 to 1,500. That is his opinion, not mine.

Other commentators have asked, as did my constituency neighbour,the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), that if the primary job of the Scottish navy was to protect the oil platforms, what sense would it make to base the naval capability on the west coast of Scotland? Do not get me wrong—I will always argue for that, no matter what situation we are in, but we have to look at the facts here. It is worth noting that the job of protecting the oil platforms is currently done by non-militarised agencies, so I am not sure how those people would feel about their jobs being shunted, so that Salmond’s navy could come in to take over.

Today is a very significant day in the referendum campaign because public scrutiny is being given to a leaked Scottish Government Cabinet document, which the Minister has referred to. It reveals the truth about the nationalists’ spending plans in a separate Scotland. It is worth looking at exactly what it says. On defence, the Scottish Finance Secretary, John Swinney, wrote:

“Historically defence spending in Scotland has been lower than Scotland’s population share of the UK defence budget.”

In saying that, he demonstrates that he, like his colleagues, does not understand that spending on overseas operations cannot be attributed to various parts of the regions and nations of the UK. He continues:

“I have made clear to the Defence Workstream that a much lower budget must be assumed.”

I hope that the bluster will now stop. There will be less money, not more, spent in a separate Scotland on defence.

I am just checking how long I have been speaking for—I could go on, but I will draw my comments to a close, so that the Minister has enough time to sum up. All I would say in conclusion is that I do not see how anybody can be particularly happy or satisfied with the outcome of the possibilities for the deterrent—[Interruption.] I have already told the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire what our position is, so he can pipe down, quite honestly. I do not see how anyone can be satisfied with the outcomes for what would happen to the deterrent in a separate Scotland. It is highly unlikely that the situation would lead to unilateral disarmament, and it is highly likely that thousands of jobs on the west coast of Scotland would be lost. That is what the nationalists are arguing for today.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Pete Wishart and Gemma Doyle

Thursday 27th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) mentioned banter, and before I deal with the substance of the debate, I wish my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) a very happy birthday. She made an excellent speech, despite the rather churlish sedentary comments of another hon. Member. It was not quite as good a speech as she made last night—but for those who missed that particular speech, I am afraid that it is not in Hansard, which is probably just as well.

I welcome the opportunity to speak about the Bill, which will strengthen devolution and increase the accountability of the Scottish Parliament to the people of Scotland. It will build on the historic work of the Labour Government in establishing the Scottish Parliament.

I campaigned for a Scottish Parliament as a teenager in 1997, even though I was not old enough to vote in the referendum. In the past decade, devolution has proved to be the right form of governance for Scotland. The Parliament has delivered free personal care for the elderly, guaranteed a nursery place for every three and four-year-old and led the way for the rest of the UK, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) said, by introducing the smoking ban, among other measures.

The Scottish Parliament has been a great success, but after a decade of devolution, it was time to review how it works in practice. That is why the Labour Government established the Calman commission in response to the cross-party calls in the Scottish Parliament. The exception was, of course, the Scottish National party, which refused to have anything to do with those much-needed discussions.

Calman made several recommendations, including on tax-raising powers and responsibilities for capital borrowing. The Scottish Government have been accountable for spending taxpayers’ money for the past 12 years, and it is now appropriate that they will be accountable for how it is raised. The powers will increase the proportion of revenue that the Scottish Parliament raises from around 15% to 35% and give the Parliament the ability to borrow nearly £3 million in capital and revenue expenditure. Greater powers over taxation will give Members of the Scottish Parliament a significant ability to stimulate sectors of the Scottish economy.

[Pete Wishart]

I am sure that the hon. Lady listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) when he explained his problems with the Bill. He described a deflationary bias that is built into the heart of its financial provisions. Why does the hon. Lady not think that there is a deflationary bias? How is there no deflationary bias in the proposals as they stand?

[Gemma Doyle]

If the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) would like to discuss that with me, I would be happy to do so when he is in the Chamber or on another occasion.

In addition to new powers on funding, Calman also recommended devolving powers to regulate air weapons, set the drink-drive limit and determine national speed limits. The inclusion of the transfer of those powers in the Bill is welcome. However, some points of concern obviously remain, such as the aggregates levy, food labelling and charity registration. We would welcome an update from the Under-Secretary on those matters. On the whole, the Bill is the right approach to strengthening devolution and preserving the Union.

In addition, the vast majority of Scots want that approach. Polls show that most want more powers for their Parliament while remaining within the UK. Indeed, some might say that Scottish people know that they have the best of both worlds: an effective Parliament that enables them to find Scottish solutions to Scottish problems while being part of the fifth largest economy in the world.

As the nationalists encourage us to engage in flag waving and sentimentalism, we should keep sight of the vital importance of our economic and cultural partnership in the UK. As I have already mentioned, Calman was established as a consequence of cross-party support, but it did not receive unanimous backing. Far from seeking to strengthen devolution within the Union, it is the ultimate goal of the SNP to break up Britain and to break the historic, cultural and economic ties that bring strength to Scotland and breadth to Britain.

Rather than engage in the process of making the Parliament stronger, the SNP chose to indulge in its own national conversation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) mentioned. By its own admission, it spent nearly £2 million on a conversation with itself on the terms of a referendum on full independence, which would have cost £9 million but was later abandoned anyway. That was a complete waste of money.

So obsessed is the SNP with its separatist agenda that it refused to accept that most Scots do not want independence. The SNP does not understand that the priorities of ordinary Scots are protecting and creating jobs, better schools and hospitals, and making our communities safer. That is why Scots are not listening to the SNP any more.

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[Gemma Doyle]

I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman, so may I make some progress please?

One reason why Scots voted for devolution in ’97 was that they lived through a Tory Government in the ’80s who did not care about us, and who indeed used Scotland as a testing ground for their most reviled policy—the hated poll tax. The establishment of the Scottish Parliament should mean that we in Scotland have some defence against the worst excesses of any Tory Government, but that will not happen now that we have an SNP Government in Scotland.

People in my constituency have been hit by an SNP double whammy. An SNP-run council is mounting an attack on the most vulnerable by imposing unfair charges on the elderly and disabled, and an SNP Government are making cuts to local services that are deeper in my area than across the rest of Scotland. The figures bear that out. The SNP in government has seriously failed the people of Scotland and Scots continue to reject separation in massive numbers. As the SNP continues to pursue its obsession with separation, it becomes more and more out of touch by the day. That was highlighted by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) when he spent his time failing to speak to his amendment, but talking about Antarctica and caravans.

[Pete Wishart]

It is really sad that we are back to incoherent ranting in interchangeable speeches from Labour Members. Will the hon. Lady talk about the Bill? What amendments would she like to see to improve the Bill? Where can we achieve cross-party consensus to achieve a powerhouse Bill? What valuable contribution will she make in Committee to improve the Bill?

[Gemma Doyle]

Just before I gave way, I mentioned the hon. Gentleman’s amendment, which I think was very generous of me, given that he did not speak to it at all.

The Calman commission concluded that the real way to strengthen devolution to make a real difference to the everyday lives of Scots is to give the Scottish Parliament some specific additional powers and some more responsibility for tax raising. The test of this Bill is whether it delivers those things effectively. I remain concerned about a few particular aspects of the Bill, but I hope that detailed scrutiny will make it stronger. On the whole, I believe that it will consolidate devolution and build on the transformation of the governance of Scotland delivered by Labour in 1999, and I look forward to supporting its progress through Parliament.