Fire and Rehire Tactics

Debate between Paul Scully and David Linden

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Westminster Hall

[Paul Scully]

I will develop that in a second.

As I was saying, the chief executive of P&O Ferries admitted to breaking employment law. He demonstrated—not only in his actions on that weekend, but in the Select Committee hearing—absolute contempt for workers who had given years of service to his company. That was not just a case of fire and rehire, which is the subject of the debate; in the main, it was just fire, because the vast majority of those workers had no prospect of re- engagement. We have urged P&O to reconsider, but those calls have fallen on deaf ears.

[David Linden]

The Minister has probably made this point better than the rest of us: P&O’s acceptance that it was breaking the law very much makes the case for an employment Bill to strengthen workers’ rights. Anecdotally, the number of cases of fire and rehire is on the increase, partly because companies see others getting away with it. Do the Government hold any data on how often fire and rehire is happening, and if so, will they publish it? If they do not have that data, why not?

[Paul Scully]

I will talk a little about that in answering the question from the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), about what the Insolvency Service is doing in relation to P&O Ferries.

We engaged ACAS to better understand exactly what fire and rehire actually is. A lot of the reports in various media are not strictly about fire and rehire, because it is never quite as binary as it appears. However, there are some egregious examples, and I think we can all agree that we want to eliminate them, or at least push the bar so high that it is just not viable for employers to take that sort of action. As a result of the inability of P&O Ferries to hear not just what this House was saying but what the country was saying, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport set out the nine steps that we are taking to force it to rethink its decision and to prevent such cases from happening again in the maritime industry.

To come to the shadow Minister’s point, the Insolvency Service is now pursuing its own inquiries. It has commenced formal criminal and civil investigations into the circumstances around the redundancies. Those investigations are ongoing, so I am not in a position to comment any further on them for the time being, but I wish the Insolvency Service every speed in its efforts, as we all want a result that holds P&O Ferries to the highest account.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Scully]

As I say, our manifesto commitments remain. The hon. Gentleman will see employment measures come forward both in this Session and before the end of the Parliament, because we want to act. We have pledged to do many things, and we absolutely want to stick to those pledges.

The hon. Member for Glasgow East talked about productivity. I will not comment on individual workers, but there is no doubt that companies in the UK are less productive than companies elsewhere in the G7, so we need to work on our productivity as a nation, and as businesses. That involves a whole raft of things, including working practices, the relationship between employers and employees, and infrastructure. If we raised our productivity to German levels, it is estimated that we could add £100 billion to our economy. Those are pretty substantial gains, if we can get there.

[David Linden]

I caution the Minister against making too many comparisons with Germany, which has much higher statutory sick pay. If he wants to make international like-for-like comparisons, let us look at the whole package, and the wider picture.

[Paul Scully]

I am going wider than workers’ rights and productivity. That is why we are rolling out the Help to Grow management scheme for smaller businesses, and other things. This is huge. We need better transport connections. That is part of the levelling-up agenda. There are lots of things within that, and I do not underestimate what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Our employment landscape is very different from that in Germany. In Germany, they tend to ask permission—it is courts first there, whereas we tend to be tribunal led. There are big differences.

One of the key things I want to raise about productivity relates to what the hon. Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) said. She was absolutely right to say that job security leads to a better, more productive, happier and more loyal workforce. That allows workers and employees to plan and it results in better mental wellbeing. That is why, by setting statutory minimums in legislation, guidance and codes, we want employers to go further. Frankly, it makes business sense for employers to go further, rather than follow the egregious example of P&O. What is the point of taking people on and training them, which involves costs, time and resources, only to then cast them aside and have to do the same thing again?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Scully and David Linden

Tuesday 7th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

14. What plans his Department has to bring forward legislative proposals on neonatal leave and pay.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

We recognise that parents of babies receiving neonatal care need extra support during some of the most difficult days of their lives. We are committed to introducing neonatal leave and pay to meet this need as soon as parliamentary time allows.

[David Linden]

We are all disappointed that there is no employment Bill, but there is cross-party agreement in the House on neonatal leave and pay. Leaving to one side the more controversial aspects of the employment Bill, what would stop the Government supporting a stand-alone Bill to enact policies on neonatal leave and pay?

[Paul Scully]

We absolutely welcome and recognise the interest in this issue, especially from the hon. Gentleman, who has personal experience of the subject and has raised it a number of times in the House. I remain committed to the legislation. We can work on it in different ways. I believe that we have a meeting scheduled, and I am looking forward to discussing how we can deliver these policies in good time.

Paid Miscarriage Leave

Debate between Paul Scully and David Linden

Tuesday 8th March 2022 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins. I congratulate the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) on securing today’s important debate. This is a really important and sensitive issue, and I want to express my deep sympathy for anybody who has experienced the loss of a baby. Sometimes the most poignant debates in this place are when we talk about baby loss at any stage of pregnancy, or indeed after birth.

The hon. Member has spoken with candour and passion, and I am grateful to her not just for today’s debate, but for our exchanges and the rest of the work that she has done, and for raising awareness of the significant impact of baby loss at any stage on parents. I also want to thank others who have contributed to this debate for their thoughtful and insightful comments, especially, as the hon. Lady rightly notes, on International Women’s Day when we come together to showcase the issues that are so important not just for women, but for families and couples across this country and the world.

As a Government we understand that there is plenty more that needs to be done to support women’s health. I will begin by first setting out the wider work that the Government are taking forward in relation to women’s health, including in the workplace. In March 2021, we announced the establishment of England’s first women’s health strategy, which is being led by the Department of Health and Social Care. Health in the workplace and fertility, pregnancy, pregnancy loss and postnatal support will be priority areas within the women’s health strategy.

We know that damaging taboos and stigmas remain around many areas of women’s health. They can prevent women from starting conversations about their health or seeking support for a health issue. When women do speak about their health, all too often they are not listened to, but the Government are determined to tackle those issues. We want to ensure that women feel supported in the workplace, that taboos are broken down through open conversation, and that employers feel well equipped to support women in managing their health within the workplace. “Our Vision for the Women’s Health Strategy for England”, published on 23 December 2021, sets out an ambitious and positive new agenda to improve the health and wellbeing of women across England. We will publish the full strategy later this year, but in the meantime I reiterate that the levelling up of women’s health is an imperative for us all.

The Government have an active agenda on work and health more widely. One example is the Government’s response to the “Health is everyone’s business” consultation. The response sets out measures that will protect and maintain progress made in reducing ill health-related job loss, and will see 1 million more disabled people in work from 2017 to 2027. The measures include a national digital information and advice service to provide greater clarity around employer and employee rights and responsibilities, working with the Health and Safety Executive to develop a set of clear and simple principles for employers, and increasing access to occupational health. Those measures are key steps in our effort to change the workplace culture around health and sickness absence, which will benefit those who have lost a pregnancy.

The hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East is specifically interested in a leave entitlement for miscarriage. In April 2020, we introduced parental bereavement leave and pay for employed parents who lose a child under the age of 18, or who suffer a stillbirth from 24 weeks of pregnancy. That new entitlement recognises that the death of a child or the stillbirth of a baby is particularly tragic. Although parental bereavement leave does not apply when a baby is lost before 24 completed weeks of pregnancy, there is support available. Women who are not able to return to work because of ill health following a miscarriage may be entitled, for example, to statutory sick pay or annual leave, and their entitlements need to be looked at in the round with the wider benefits system.

Parental bereavement leave and pay is a statutory minimum, and in introducing that entitlement the Government sent an important message to employers that staff members who have suffered a bereavement should be supported. Indeed, I am pleased to say that there are many good examples of businesses that offer compassionate leave for their employees following a miscarriage. The hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East talked about ASOS as one of those examples. I have spoken to ASOS. What it offers is not miscarriage leave per se; as she rightly described, it covers “life events”. ASOS is particularly forward looking in understanding that miscarriage is one of a series of really important life events that affect people in different ways. ASOS has that wrap-around care because it understands that investing in the workforce is the right thing to do—to keep people in the workforce, keep them happy and keep them content.

Flexible working may not be an alternative, in the view of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake), but different people have different responses to a life event such as miscarriage. It is a really personal experience. Some of those affected may want to stay at home; others may prefer to continue to work, or alternatively may need time off later. That is where flexible working can make a difference for many people, but not all people—as I say, it is a very personalised experience. Individuals are best placed to understand their own specific needs, and good employers will respond to requests made by their employees in a sensitive way. It is right that we showcase those employers doing well, and that we also explain that it is the right thing to do not only morally—from a humanity point of view—but from a business point of view. It makes no sense to take a different view from that of those far-sighted companies that are making a wider, longer-term investment in their workforces. However, we are in a difficult economic climate, and that cannot be ignored. We are mindful of placing additional burdens on business, but, as I have mentioned, we strongly encourage employers to go beyond the statutory minimum wherever they can.

The hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East noted that miscarriage and the associated grief are not illness. However, when an event negatively affects someone’s mental or physical health, they may have the option of taking sick leave, and may also be eligible for statutory sick pay. Employees who are able to claim sick pay can self-certify as sick for the first seven days that they are off work; after that time a fit note is required, and their employer can request medical evidence if they wish. In addition, there are protections in place for those who need to take sick leave following a miscarriage, which mean that any sick leave taken during the two-week period after pregnancy ends should not count towards a total sickness record or be used as a reason for redundancy or disciplinary action. Individuals who are not eligible for statutory sick pay and those who require additional support may be eligible for universal credit and the new-style employment and support allowance.

[David Linden]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. It would be remiss to allow the debate to pass without putting on record that statutory sick pay on these islands is among the lowest rates in Europe. It is fine to talk about statutory sick pay, but not at the pitiful levels that the UK pays at the moment.

[Paul Scully]

I understand the hon. Member’s point of view. I ask him to look at it in the round, alongside universal credit and other means of welfare. We have said we would always look at statutory sick pay, but we do not believe that now is the time to do it, as we are coming out of a pandemic. That is certainly something that we are keeping under review, as part of that wider holistic approach to welfare, benefits and workplace support.

All employees are also entitled to take 5.6 weeks a year of annual leave, in some cases more if their contract of employment allows. Normally, employees need to give notice of leave dates, but employers may agree to waive the notice period.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Scully and David Linden

Tuesday 16th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

T3. Last month, I met Ed Burns, the managing director of H. Grossman Ltd, a toy company based in Glasgow East. Alongside the British Toy & Hobby Association, it is concerned about the growing number of unsafe toys being sold to UK customers by third-party sellers via online marketplaces. Will the Minister meet us to discuss the campaign to tighten up safety on children’s toys?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. The Office for Product Safety and Standards, over the period since the campaign was launched in April, has taken 10,000 unsafe products off the market, and it continues to work to identify products available online that pose a serious risk. We are reviewing the UK’s product safety framework in this area, but I will happily meet the hon. Gentleman.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Scully and David Linden

Tuesday 21st September 2021 Commons Chamber

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

7. What plans his Department has to bring forward legislative proposals on an entitlement to statutory leave and pay for parents of babies requiring neonatal care.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

The Government are committed to introducing statutory leave and pay for parents of babies requiring neonatal care, and we will do that as soon as parliamentary time allows.

[David Linden]

I am grateful to the Minister for his answer, but I am afraid it is not good enough. Every year 100,000 babies are born premature or sick, and parents like me then have to take time off work to be with their child in hospital where, perhaps, it is fighting for its life. When will the Government get a grip on the issue? This is something that they have committed themselves to doing, and parents of premature and sick babies across these islands are desperate for action. Do we have to wait for an employment Bill? Why are the Government taking so long?

[Paul Scully]

I appreciate the work that the hon. Gentleman and his all-party parliamentary group on premature and sick babies are doing in this area. The Government are committed to ensuring that all workers can participate and progress in the labour market and that we build back better as we recover from covid-19. We will bring forward the employment Bill when the time is right. In the meantime, we will continue to take the necessary action to support businesses and protect jobs.

McVitie’s Tollcross Factory

Debate between Paul Scully and David Linden

Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

Yes, I will outline a few of the issues that my colleagues at the Department for Work and Pensions will be standing up as a result. I do recognise that this is a worrying time for those Pladis employees. We will do all we can to support each of the workers affected, including through the Department for Work and Pensions, Jobcentre Plus and the support that they can access through Partnership Action for Continuing Employment in Scotland. People will also be able to access redundancy help and job search advice through the Department for Work and Pensions’ jobhelp.campaign.gov.uk website.

There is also information on gov.uk and updated information packs provided to employers to help them to signpost employees to the support that is available. That support includes connecting people to jobs in the local labour market; help with job searches, including CV writing, interview skills, where to find jobs and how to apply for them; and help to identify transferable skills and skills gaps linked to the local labour market, along with advice on what benefits they may get and how to claim. Additionally, the Government’s plan for jobs is helping to support businesses to recover from the pandemic and create more jobs, with measures such as VAT cuts, business rates relief and cash grants for the sectors most affected.

[David Linden]

By virtue of shadowing it, I take as much interest as anybody in this House in the role of the Department for Work and Pensions, but as I have discussed with the Under-Secretary of State, there is another Department in this Government that has a crucial role to play: the Foreign Office. Pladis is, of course, a Turkish-owned company. Will the Minister give a commitment at the Dispatch Box that every single bit of machinery in the UK Government, including in Her Majesty’s Foreign Office, will be engaged to try to put as much pressure as possible on the Turkish owner, Salman Amin, to ensure that Pladis does not take a decision that would lead to work for the Department for Work and Pensions? Instead, will the Government use the global Britain brand? I am not, perhaps, as much a fan of it as the Minister, but if the global Britain brand is to be taken at its word, will that pressure be brought to bear on Salman Amin in Turkey?

[Paul Scully]

It is frustrating, because it is clearly a commercial decision for Pladis, but we want to make sure that we work with Pladis and other companies to keep and increase investment within the UK and show them the opportunities. Indeed, should the factory end up closing, perhaps it might be repurposed for other areas of productive work that could re-engage the workforce. These are conversations that I am sure will continue in partnership with the Scottish Government, the hon. Gentleman, unions and other agencies in the local area.

Let me turn to a slightly wider point. I know how important manufacturing is to the local area, to Scotland and to the whole of Britain. As the largest of the manufacturing sectors, food and beverage manufacturing contributed £31 billion of gross value added to the UK economy in 2019 and directly employed more than 450,000 people across every region of the UK. It provided £4.8 billion to Scotland’s economy in 2019. The importance of manufacturing to Scotland’s industrial history is well known, and today Scotland has a high-tech, high-value offer in other areas as well, including leading sectors such as space, aerospace, defence, and marine and life sciences.

Manufacturing is so often the economic anchor in local communities, providing good jobs, and the Tollcross site is no exception, so we must work together to ensure that Glasgow and other local areas in Scotland continue to provide an attractive offer to manufacturing firms and to all investors, both domestic and foreign-owned. That is how we will ensure the future of the 190,000 manufacturing jobs in Scotland and the 2.7 million across the UK.

We will continue to support UK manufacturing capability in its transition to net zero through significant investment in research, development and innovation, so that it is globally competitive and can continue to provide the products demanded across the world and the jobs that are so important to local communities. The Prime Minister’s 10-point plan for a green industrial revolution mobilises more than £12 billion to create more than 250,000 high-skilled jobs across the UK.

Scotland and other industrial heartlands are central to this blueprint for building industries of the future and decarbonising existing ones. Scotland’s clean energy and high-tech manufacturing capability, together with Glasgow’s aspirations to be a net zero city, have made it the obvious place to host COP26 later this year. That is going to showcase the city’s sustainable industrial credentials. The offshore wind manufacturing investment fund will have particularly strong benefits in Scotland and, due to geographical factors, we expect much of the UK’s future floating wind deployment to be in Scottish and Welsh waters. There is significant growth potential there, and that can ultimately deliver new and disruptive local supply-chain content to support the future floating offshore wind projects in Scotland. That could lead to the creation of new high-value jobs in a sustainable growth industry.

I want to assure the hon. Member for Glasgow East that my officials are in regular dialogue with officials in the Scottish Government and with colleagues in Scottish Enterprise, and we will continue to work with them to support not only the Scottish Government’s efforts to help those affected but the broader manufacturing industry and economy in Scotland. As we build back from the pandemic, we should be pulling together more than ever to strengthen our United Kingdom and learning from one another to try to achieve the best outcomes for our great nation. We will continue to deliver for people across Scotland as part of a strong United Kingdom, and I am not saying that to make a partisan point or to show up political differences. I just think that when we look at the human cost, it is so important to realise that we are a collection of communities as well as of nations together.

The United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 provides the opportunity for the UK Government to complement and strengthen the support that is already given to citizens, businesses and communities across Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. For the first time in decades, we will be able to provide direct financial support to regenerate town centres and high streets together, to improve local transport links and infrastructure together, and to invest in cultural, sporting and economic development that will level up the whole of the UK.

We are going to boost funding for communities with the £4.8 billion levelling-up fund to support local infrastructure and with £220 million to invest in local areas, ahead of launching the UK shared prosperity fund in 2022. That is in addition to the £1 billion Glasgow city deal that supports tens of thousands of new jobs through infrastructure and also through innovative industries including high-tech manufacturing, life sciences and advanced design. Scotland will clearly continue to benefit from our £352 billion package of covid-19 support, which has protected one in three Scottish jobs.

Glasgow and East Kilbride will benefit from new jobs and investment from the Government, with the Cabinet Office and the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office moving hundreds of civil service roles to Scotland. That will create new opportunities for brilliant Scottish public servants to join UK efforts to tackle joint domestic and international challenges. We will continue to work for every citizen, every community and every business across Britain to improve quality of life and access to opportunity by harnessing local economic strengths.

Coming back to Tollcross, I know that this will be a deeply worrying time for the workers and families affected by the recent announcement from Pladis on 17 June that it was going to issue the HR1 redundancy notice. We have to work together to do everything we can to ensure a bright future for these workers so that their skills can continue to be used to benefit the local economy in Glasgow and more widely. I join the hon. Member for Glasgow East to encourage Pladis to work in a responsible and compassionate way for its employees. My ministerial colleagues and officials stand ready to work with the Scottish Government and the hon. Gentleman to do all we can to assist the employees affected so that they have access to all available support. We must work together to make sure that manufacturing continues to grow and provide skilled, well-paid jobs in Glasgow and Scotland. The proud history of Glasgow’s manufacturing sectors, together with its achievements in sustainability and aspirations to be the UK’s first zero-carbon city, provide a firm and enduring foundation for future jobs and great opportunities.

Question put and agreed to.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Paul Scully and David Linden

Consideration of Lords amendments
Tuesday 15th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

It is an honour to follow my constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss). Like other hon. Members on the SNP Benches, I welcome the amendments from their lordships to try to protect the devolved settlements from policy divergence across the UK. However, it strikes me as a rather bizarre state of affairs that we are desperately relying on the unelected and democratically illegitimate House of Lords to defend devolution and democracy. That irony is not lost on me, but I will return to that just a little bit later.

I rise today to speak in favour of Lord Hope of Craighead’s amendment on the common framework; I remain enormously frustrated that the Government are opposing it in this House in order to protect their grubby power grab on the devolved legislatures. Of course, that should not come as a surprise to the House: not only did this British Tory Government campaign against devolution in 1997, but they actively loathe it even now, and make no attempt to hide that view.

We have a Prime Minister who told his Back Benchers that devolution was “a disaster” and that devolving power was Tony Blair’s “biggest mistake”, which will certainly come as a surprise to those of us who opposed the war in Iraq. However, it is not just the Prime Minister who holds that anti-devolution view; it runs all the way through this Bill. The Leader of the House and Lord President of the Council is also on record as saying that,

“constitutional tinkering has weakened our Parliament and has helped to divide the United Kingdom”—[Official Report, 26 November 2020; Vol. 684, c. 989.].

I would argue that the Government do not need much help with that, frankly.

We are where we are, and that is why I support the amendment to the Bill made by Lord Hope. We should not be surprised by the Tories’ anti-devolution rhetoric, but I must say I was surprised and disappointed to see the British Labour party withdraw its support for Lord Thomas’s amendment, which challenged clauses on direct spending in devolved areas. Perhaps it is a sign of just how out of touch the Labour party has become that Lord Stevenson, speaking for his party in the Lords last night, said that,

“the points made by the Minister on the shared prosperity fund were sufficient to ensure that we do not need to go back over this again. It is not our view, as Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition, that we need to divide the House on this issue again.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 December 2020; Vol. 808, c. 1476.]

It is hard—really hard—to imagine a giant such as Donald Dewar, for example, uttering those words in Westminster, but they reaffirm my belief that this place and its two biggest parties cannot be trusted to protect our devolved institutions. Perhaps that is why, yesterday, we saw the 16th poll in a row showing majority support for Scottish independence. Alongside my colleagues this afternoon, I will vote for the amendments, but the only way to truly empower the Scottish Parliament is with independence, not with Lords amendments. Scottish independence is only a case of when, not if, and I suspect the Minister knows that too.

[Paul Scully]

I am grateful for the forbearance of colleagues who have brought this debate to a relatively short end. I will not detain them for too long; I just want to thank everybody who has spoken today.

It is a shame that a number of the speeches veered from the amendments that we are considering today, but it was somewhat predictable. We are debating devolution, but in reality a number of hon. Members talked about independence, without using the word—I think in SNP bingo the word independence came up only once. The sentiment was that they are using this Bill to further their ambitions for independence, rather than concentrating on respecting the devolved Administrations through devolution and common frameworks.

We have before us today’s amendments, which the Lords considered and voted on, yet much of the debate was about yesterday’s amendments and an attack on the Labour party. I appreciate the opening words from the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), that it is important that we keep on talking to get this important Bill through, so that we can give businesses certainty.

[David Linden]

I do not want to intervene on this love-in of the Better Together alliance, but the Minister spoke earlier about using the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill to divide the United Kingdom. Actually, opinion polling has shown a clear trajectory in terms of Scottish independence—16 polls in a row. Why does he think that is?

[Paul Scully]

I am not sure which amendment the hon. Gentleman is speaking to, but I note that the last poll was 52:48, which I am sure he will talk about; it seems to be a figure that keeps coming up.

Why do we need to give businesses certainty? This is not just about Northern Ireland, Wales and England; it is about Scottish business too. Some 60% of Scotland’s trade—more than £50 billion—is with the rest of the UK. Up to half a million jobs are dependent on that internal trade.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Scully and David Linden

Tuesday 15th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I thank my hon. Friend for that. He is a big champion for his local pubs, for which I know there will be a lot of competition. Yes, the review will be in the next couple of days, and I hope we will see a number of pubs being able to open at that point, because that is what they want. Government support has been welcomed, but customers coming back through the doors, especially in the busiest months, is what we all want to see.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

  The Secretary of State will know that not all businesses need to re-furlough staff, and many that do not were counting on the £1,000 per employee job retention bonus. However, this has been scrapped, blasting a black hole in the books of countless businesses across the UK. The Treasury will not say when or how the scheme will be replaced, so can his Department perhaps give businesses some certainty over the billions in support that have been snatched away from them without warning?

House of Lords: Abolition

Debate between Paul Scully and David Linden

Monday 18th June 2018 Westminster Hall

[Paul Scully]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that interesting point, but I am describing the existing situation, which nobody would create. We had hereditary peers in the House of Lords right up until the ’90s. The first level of reform went through under Tony Blair, but nothing was really put in its place. We are in that halfway house at the moment.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

I would not want the hon. Gentleman inadvertently to mislead the House. Perhaps he will put on the record the fact that there are still 92 hereditary peers.

[Paul Scully]

Forgive me. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I will come to that point later in my speech. I was talking about when there were solely hereditary peers. I thank him very much for allowing me to correct the record.

The House of Lords clearly needs to do more, however it is composed, to ensure it is representative of the country, not just by reflecting public political opinion, expressed in general election results, but by having more women and people from ethnic backgrounds. It is interesting to note, however, that both leaders of the two main parties in the Lords are female, and that all three leaders of the main parties are younger than their counterparts in this place. Funnily enough, the House of Lords has done its bit for gender equality by electing its first male Lord Speaker, Lord Fowler. It has a good record of supporting women in the most senior positions, but clearly there is more it can do.

The work of the Lords is not just the legislation debated in the Chamber, but its Committee work. Its Select Committees are formed differently from ours: while ours tend to reflect Departments, its Committees tend to be more cross-cutting. The Science and Technology Committee, for example, makes the most of the House of Lords’ expertise. Essentially, the House of Lords does things that the House of Commons does less of because the time available, and our different political imperatives and priorities, drive us in different ways. However, it should not go beyond its remit, as it clearly has on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.

A lot of checks have been introduced over the past 100 years. The Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949 prevent the House of Lords from blocking legislation and money resolutions. It can hold up Bills for up to a year, but the Government can reintroduce them without seeking the House of Lords’ consent at the beginning of the next parliamentary session. Having some tension is no bad thing, but there have to be limits, and the House of Lords has overstepped the limits in this instance.

The Salisbury convention would normally kick in for a measure such as the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, because, like our pledge to leave the customs union and the single market, it was clearly in our 2017 manifesto. However, that only prevents the Bill from becoming law in this parliamentary Session. There is obviously a timescale issue with the EU withdrawal Bill, because we will leave the EU at the end of March next year, so we have to get the Bill through in plenty of time to ensure we leave in an orderly way. If it is held up for too long or changed beyond recognition, that will affect our negotiating position now and our capacity to leave the EU in an orderly way next March.