ISIL in Syria
Debate between Paul Flynn and Keith Simpson(9 years ago)
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Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con)
This may be the kiss of death for them, but I congratulate the right hon. Members for Derby South (Margaret Beckett), for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) and for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) on three formidable speeches. It always takes incredible courage to stand against one’s party and they should not be denigrated for doing so.
I support the Government’s motion. I fully understand all the caveats of one kind or another that colleagues have put forward, but the most important immediate issue is making the strikes against Daesh in Syria that our intelligence and security agencies have identified and wish to carry out, because it offers a present threat to us, our constituents and our allies in Europe. This is a present threat. They may not get it entirely right. I can see my right hon. Friend for—what is his constituency? [Interruption.] I have so many friends! It would be wrong to name them all, but they think that there is no direct threat as far as intelligence is concerned. Those colleagues who have received briefings of one kind or another understand that. The intelligence and security services cannot guarantee to prevent every threat. We should support the motion primarily because we wish to extend our air campaign into Syria to help prevent the threats to this country.
Secondly, I am mindful that the elephant in the room is the Iraq war. We tend to look back to previous wars to draw lessons of one kind or another. The Prime Minister is absolutely right that we have to look at the present situation and the future. Hopefully, we have learned lessons, both political and military, from that war, but we can end up having our current operations and politics determined by past experiences.
Our predecessors sat in the Commons in the 1930s, determined never to have a great war again. The Labour party was divided—there were pacifists and those who wanted collective security. My party supported appeasement, as did the overwhelming majority of the British public, because they genuinely—these were not evil men and women—wanted to prevent another war. They failed, of course, because they were dealing with people in other countries who were not prepared to negotiate. The lessons learned from that war were used in 1956. Anthony Eden believed that Nasser was another Mussolini. He was therefore prepared to take action, but it was the wrong action at the time. I believe that we should put aside where we stood on other campaigns and look at what the situation is today.
My final point is that there has been a great debate about the 70,000 moderate or immoderate people who might or might not provide ground forces. I am sure that the leader of the SNP is, even as we speak, getting YouGov to go out and ask them whether they consider themselves to be moderates or immoderates.
Mr Simpson
I am sorry but I have almost run out of time.
During the second world war, when Churchill and Roosevelt were looking at resistance in Europe, it was dreadfully difficult to find out whether people were communists, non-communists, or Gaullists of one kind or another. At the end of the day, their criterion was, “Are they fighting the Nazis?” There is no easy solution, but the Prime Minister has laid out a set of proposals as far as he can, and I urge the House to vote with him on this occasion.
First World War Commemoration
Debate between Paul Flynn and Keith SimpsonWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con)
It is a great pleasure, Mrs Riordan, to serve under your chairmanship. We are witnessing today a strange reversal of life, in that I am doing a presentation to the Minister, whom I taught some 20 years ago when he was an officer cadet. It will be interesting to see whether he is as critical of me as I perhaps was of him.
May I begin by declaring three interests—not pecuniary ones—that I have in relation to the subject? The first is that for many years I taught military history at the military academy of Sandhurst and at the staff college, and I wrote or edited several books to do with the British Army and the first world war. Secondly, I am one of two parliamentary commissioners representing the House of Commons on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Thirdly, I am a member of the Prime Minister’s advisory board on commemorating the first world war.
We cannot get away from the fact that the first world war is a controversial subject. It was controversial at the time. When the Liberal Government decided to declare war on Germany, following the German invasion of Belgium, several Liberal Ministers resigned from the Cabinet. During the war, there were the conscientious objectors, and those, such as Lord Lansdowne, who wanted at different times to reach a peace settlement.
The subject has also been controversial since then. Many veterans felt that they were betrayed. In the 1960s, during the anniversary of the first world war, an enormous debate went on. Films and programmes such as “Oh! What A Lovely War” and “Blackadder Goes Forth” probably have a bigger impact on public perceptions of Britain and the first world war than all the memoirs and history books, and we can see that today.
The Government are in a difficult position, trying to organise a commemoration that reflects the general feeling of the British public, which is that this is something to commemorate in a positive way. It is about not only remembrance and reconciliation but pride. However, looking in the newspapers, I can see that my old friend Max Hastings has written a story asking whether the Government are sucking up to the Germans—“Don’t mention the war!” That is not true.
I happen to be in the historical camp that believes that Britain was right to go to war in 1914, by the end of which we had beaten imperial Germany. Many Germans of the current generation and German historians agree with that. Equally, a whole group of artists and others, including one Labour MP, wrote to The Guardian expressing an opposite view. They believe that this is all about the worst kind of patriotic interpretation of the first world war. We have two different opinions. It is not up to the Government to lay down the law on this, but we will have a discussion over the next five years, and perhaps the younger generation will engage in it.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there were two main consequences of the first world war? One was that 16 million were dead and the second was the second world war.
Mr Simpson
With the greatest of respect to the hon. Gentleman, I am not here to debate that. It may well be that at some later date we will have a full-scale debate about commemorating the first world war, either through the Backbench Business Committee or in Government time. I am merely giving two interpretations, and I happen to believe that one of them is correct.
My purpose in introducing this short debate today is to reflect the fact that there has been considerable interest in both Houses in the commemoration. Two of my hon. Friends, here today, have already secured short debates on the subject. On 6 March, my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) introduced a debate entitled, “Youth participation: first world war commemorations”, and, on 13 March, my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) introduced a debate on the first world war centenary. Folkestone will be one of the commemorative points next August; it was from Folkestone that many tens of thousands of soldiers went by cross-channel steamer to Belgium and France. There have been oral questions and debates in the House of Lords as well.
The Government have outlined a six-year programme of events around the themes of remembrance, youth and education. I do not intend to go into any details, as many colleagues here will be aware of it. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the Imperial War museum are central to the commemoration, but I also want to flag up the role of the National Archives, which have hundreds of thousands—if not millions—of documents and photographs relating to the first world war, specifically to the war service of men and women, and a lot of other things such as operational diaries. People now can get easy access to such information.
The importance of the commemoration is not just the fact that the Government are going to set an overview, but that it will be bottom up. It is the work done already over many decades by individuals and local communities who wish to look at the people behind the names, particularly on things such as war memorials. We have a wide range of interest groups such as the Western Front Association and the War Memorials Trust, which have already done very good work—hon. Members will know that from their constituencies.