Care Bill [Lords]

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dorrell]

I was told a long time ago that it is important in certain circumstances in life to be careful with pronouns. It is fair to say that in the evidence we heard last week not all the witnesses were as careful as they could have been with their pronouns. However, I do not want to follow the hon. Lady too far down that road. Instead, I want to make a couple of broader points that I think are important if we are to deliver the objective of the efficient use of data within the health and care system in a way that respects the sensitivities of patients and the people who work in the system.

In the policy arena, when we talk about data and the safeguards around data, there is quite properly an instinct to be concerned about the power of information technology to make information available on a scale that was undreamt of a generation ago and to recognise that that requires proper safeguards. The default question is: what are the safeguards? That is a perfectly proper question, which has to be answered, but it is important that we do not lose sight of the benefits that can come from proper and efficient use of data.

I want to dwell on one illustration of that in the context of the health and care system. Traditionally we have been moderately good, in particular in the hospital service, at measuring episodes of care. What we have been almost completely blind about are the patterns that link one episode of care to another along an individual patient’s life journey. Care.data, as I understand it, is designed to address that weakness in a properly anonymised way, recognising that if we connect the patterns, one episode of care is often linked to another, and another and another, in that patient’s life journey. If we are to build a health and care system that is more joined-up, to use one bit of jargon, or, to use another cliché that is often repeated, treats patients or people not conditions, we need to equip ourselves with an information system that traps, and allows us to see, the experience of those people around whom we are trying to build the system.

The current information systems available to the health and care system simply leave that gap wide open. They do not connect up the individual episodes of care experienced by individual patients. They measure the numbers of people who go in for diagnostic services or the numbers of people who are treated for a particular condition or the number of attendances of care workers at home. They measure all those things, but they do not connect the individual patient-person experience through the line. Addressing that weakness is fundamental to what we are trying to do, and we must not lose sight of that in the concern we properly have about the safeguards that are required if care.data is to proceed with the public and professional support it needs.

[Paul Burstow]

The right hon. Gentleman is making an important point about why the programme has to succeed. Given that about 70% of what the NHS spends goes on the management of multi-morbidity—on people suffering from long-term conditions, often physical and mental—the ability to look at those data across the journeys people make through our care system is an essential part of good commissioning for population health.

[Mr Dorrell]

The right hon. Gentleman is 100% right. That is precisely what the care.data programme is designed to address.

Care Bill [Lords]

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Monday 10th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

This part of the Bill and this group of new clauses and amendments are all about ensuring that the system delivers the best possible quality of care and that, when things go wrong, it is clear how the situation is to be corrected and what penalties will be faced by those who have let people down and, in some cases, treated them in an appalling way. There is much in this part of the Bill that is to be applauded, although the nature of the Report stage of a Bill means that we often do not applaud a Bill much, because we are focusing on the things that we want to amend further.

New clause 8 deals with a subject that was also a feature of our discussions in Committee—namely, the concern that the commissioning role of too many local authorities, and the discharge of their responsibilities for planning for the care and support needs in their communities, had degenerated into little more than crude procurements and, worse still, in some cases just spot purchasing of care services. In some local authorities, there was no sense of strategy or of engagement with the local population, and there were no pragmatic conversations with provider organisations ahead of a procurement process. There was no real sense of how to shape the market to deliver the best possible outcome from the point of view of the wider public interest.

Those concerns were expressed a number of times in Committee, and they have been echoed throughout all the stages of the Bill. They were certainly strongly expressed by a number of the representative bodies of provider organisations when they gave evidence to the Joint Committee scrutinising the Bill. Of all the evidence sessions in that Joint Committee, the one that sticks with me is the one at which the provider organisations gave evidence. There was a palpable sense of the deterioration, and even the collapse, of relationships between local authorities and providers as a consequence of the commissioning not being done well in some organisations.

My new clause is designed to address a concern expressed by a number of organisations about a change that the Government made to the Bill in the other place. In that change, they removed from the legislation that established the Care Quality Commission the provision for periodic reviews of the performance of local authorities in regard to their statutory duties on care and support. I am prepared to accept the arguments that the Minister made before removing that provision, but only if we can have much greater certainty that the Care Quality Commission will undertake regular thematic reviews of care and support services.

New clause 8 sets out a number of the things that I think such a thematic review should include. For example, we have established a regime for sector-led improvement whereby local authorities can seek peer review of their delivery of quality commissioning of care and support services. It is working well in some places, but there is certainly evidence that it is not in others. There is a concern that arrangements will be made that allow an inadequate level of peer review and, frankly, people to get away with not doing the right thing. That is why a back-stop provision allowing thematic reviews is absolutely essential, and why ideally I would like the CQC to be independent in its judgment on that, rather than beholden to Ministers to authorise it. That is not the situation we are in, but the new clause would have us look at those issues.

I was told by a provider that I met at an event which the United Kingdom Homecare Association organised with me that CQC inspectors positively discourage comments about local authority commissioning. If a provider has a concern about how they are being constricted, arguably inappropriately, by a commissioner’s decision or practice and tries to raise that with an inspector, they are told, “That is not a matter for us.” It is absolutely a matter for the CQC. I hope the Minister can say something about what he will say to the CQC on that issue. It seems to me that understanding the intervention of commissioners is a really important part of gathering intelligence about the robustness of a local care economy, and the best way to gather that intelligence, at least in part, is by inspectors being open to being told about that.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a matter of not only looking at how competently a local authority commissioning process is commissioning the service as we know it, but thinking beyond that and enlarging the role of commissioning in changing the balance in the system of care delivery?

[Paul Burstow]

Absolutely. That is why the duty on market shaping set out in the Bill is about stretching the local authority to take that wider population-level interest, and not only for the people for whom they will arrange care and for whose care and support needs they will pay, but for the whole population who might need care and support but will be funding it themselves. I do not see how local authorities can satisfactorily discharge that new and important responsibility if there is not also a fairly critical examination of commissioning practices themselves. That is why I have tabled the new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dorrell]

I want to speak primarily to the new clauses moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, but first I wish to comment on the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie), who has been a consistent advocate of the importance of ensuring that we have a culture in our health and care system that creates space for whistle- blowers, not because we want a world full of whistleblowers, but because we want an open culture—as she rightly says—in which the whistleblower is redundant.

The example often cited in this area comes from the US Navy. A junior rating prevented flying from an aircraft carrier because he was concerned about a safety element. As it happened, the concern was misplaced, but the rating was celebrated because he had the courage to raise it. The culture of the ship was such that it allowed that individual to take the steps necessary to cover the risk. In a sense, the story is most telling because the concern was misplaced but the individual was celebrated for having had the courage to take action. That is the kind of culture that we should have in the health and care system.

I do not agree that we need a candour commissioner: it is part of the core function of the Care Quality Commission’s inspections of health and care provider institutions to make an assessment of whether that culture exists in an institution. If that culture does not exist, it is hard to see how that institution can deliver the standards of care that we would all want to see.

My main reason for speaking is to pick up the points raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond—

[Paul Burstow]

Sutton and Cheam.

[Mr Dorrell]

Forgive me—the right part of London, but the wrong constituency.

My right hon. Friend is on to an important point and I shall listen with care to what the Minister has to say in reply. We have been arguing for the best part of a quarter of a century about the role of commissioners, not just in the social care sector but across the health and care sector. As my right hon. Friend said, in different parts of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 this commitment to what is, in the jargon, called integration, but what I prefer to call joined-up services, is introduced into different parts of the system. Rightly, my right hon. Friend wants to include it in the terms of reference of the Care Quality Commission, but we need to think beyond just introducing it as an add-on into bits of legislation, the prime purpose of which lies elsewhere.

In my view we have no choice—and I do not particularly want a choice—but to create a health and care system that puts more emphasis on prevention, on community services and on joining those services to the rest of the health and care provider network. For a quarter of a century we have been seeking, rather spasmodically and under Governments of all political complexions, to build a commissioner system charged with delivering that type of care system. Ministers need to rise to the challenge of showing how we move from where we are today towards a commissioning system that is fit for purpose to deliver that type of care outcome. The system that we operate is often described as fragmented, and we all know that different parts of the system are indeed fragmented. But the fragmentation is worst in the commissioning institutions. We have social service authorities that are responsible for commissioning social care, and in the next sentence of our speeches we say that that is the same thing as community services, but those are commissioned by CCGs. In the next breath, we say that community health is the same as primary health, but that is commissioned by NHS England. As they say in the modern jargon, “Talk me through it.” How do we deliver properly joined-up services if the people responsible for commissioning the service are so fragmented?

[Paul Burstow]

My right hon. Friend is making a very important point, which he has pursued vigorously as Chair of the Select Committee. Does he agree that part of the evolution that needs to take place is an extension of the role that we originally envisaged for health and wellbeing boards, so that they become the place where these matters come together? The default should be changed to one that presumes integration and joined-up services, rather than the other way around.

[Mr Dorrell]

I agree with the thought that my right hon. Friend identifies. I have been choosing my words with care—I hope—in inviting the Minister to chart a course towards a more joined-up concept of commissioning. Almost as I offer my critique of the commissioning structures, I can feel officials in the Box writing the next version of the legislation that will have another go at providing the perfect solution to deliver something that is better than we have ever dreamt up before. I emphasise that what I am looking for from the Minister is a route map or journey—a process, not an event—and preferably one that builds on existing institutions rather than committing what I regard as the mistake of starting again with a clean sheet of paper.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

In fact, in October 2010 this Government took an important decision about the funding of social care: to invest an extra £7.2 billion. I wish Opposition Members would stop running local authorities down and support the ones that are doing the right thing and ensuring that they spend the money the Government have provided to them on social care, rather than cutting those services. That is what I am doing; I hope that the hon. Lady will as well. I just wish that she had prefaced her comments by apologising for 13 years of Labour failure on social care.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s statement today and the announcements last week about the future structure and the commitment to introduce legislation later in this Parliament in line with the draft Bill. Will he confirm that it is the Government’s intention to pursue the cross-party talks on funding options for the Dilnot package, and that if solutions can be found, they can be included in the legislation that is introduced?

[Paul Burstow]

Notwithstanding some of the perhaps intemperate exchanges we have in this place, my colleagues and I are still determined, if those on the Opposition Front Bench are, to engage in talks on how we reform the funding system. Indeed, the debate we had in the Chamber last night confirmed that both sides of the House wish to support the principles of the Dilnot reforms, so I hope that we can have such talks and that they can be reflected in the Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady’s constituent, and with the hon. Lady. We need to ensure that, as soon as possible, the benefits and the control that direct payments give to individuals in social care are available to people in regard to their long-term health care and particularly to continuing health care. It is realistic to say that we can roll this out nationwide by 2014, but I know that the hon. Lady is having discussions with the authorities in Sheffield, and I encourage her to carry on those conversations about the way in which people can use the current arrangements to access those facilities.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does the constituency case raised by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) not highlight the increasingly urgent need to achieve much more integration between health and social services, and indeed between different parts of the national health service, in order to provide joined-up care that focuses on patients’ needs and delivers better value for money to the taxpayer?

[Paul Burstow]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I urge the hon. Lady to write to me about the matter so that I can respond in more detail, but let me say to my right hon. Friend that it is not just a question of delivering more integration within health care—which is often still too fragmented—or between health and social care; it is also a question of recognising that issues such as housing and leisure are critical to the delivery of greater well-being, and to an improvement in the health of the nation. The Health and Social Care Bill, which has now completed all its stages, gives people in every part of the system a clear duty to collaborate, integrate, and deliver better care for individuals.

Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

I am sure that as people read the transcript of the debate they will wonder why that intervention came at this point, other than to make a cheap party point. It is one that many Members of the House will know has set the tone for much of the Labour party’s contribution to debate on the Bill.

I was about to discuss an important issue, which is how we improve the health of our nation through our public health services. Returning to amendments 1253 to 1260 and the role of director of public health, we are having discussions about how best to ensure that the director of public health has an appropriate status within the local authority. There is concern about who directors report to and are accountable to. We intend to return to that matter once the consultations are concluded to make that absolutely clear, and to address those concerns.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend repeat the statements that were made in a Select Committee hearing about the status of directors of public health? Is it the Government’s view that, at the very least, they should encourage—and preferably make mandatory—the status of a director of public health as a senior officer of the local authority, not reporting through any other senior officer of the authority?

[Paul Burstow]

My right hon. Friend is right to remind the House of the clarifying statement that was made before his Select Committee. That is what we want to encourage. We are listening to the results of the consultation exercise at the moment. Such people should be officers who report to the council and to the chief executive. Those are the issues that we are considering, and we will return to the matter.

Amendment 1254 would require the local authority to obtain the agreement of the Secretary of State before dismissing its director of public health. Our view is that as the local authority is the employer, it is not appropriate for the Secretary of State to intervene directly. The Bill already requires local authorities to consult the Secretary of State before dismissing a director of public health, so there is a safeguard already built into the legislation.

Amendment 1256 would require the director of public health to be suitably qualified. It is important to be clear that, as the Bill sets out, the director of public health must be jointly appointed by the Secretary of State, who can ensure that only appropriately qualified individuals are appointed. The amendment is therefore unnecessary.

Southern Cross Care Homes

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

My slightly-longer-than-it-should-have-been answer to the hon. Lady’s question was an attempt to set out as much detail as was possible about the steps being taken to achieve a consensual, solvent restructuring of the business so that the homes can continue to operate. That is what my answer was all about. She asked about the role of the CQC, which, as I said to her, has been working for some months with the landlords to ensure a smooth process of re-registration as new operators are identified to take on the running of individual homes. I also said in response to her initial question that every home will be transferred. There is a plan in place that will lead to all homes being transferred over the next four months. She asked about engagement with BIS. Of course, as part of the ongoing work, the Department of Health is engaging with BIS to ensure that we have the very best advice in dealing with these issues. The Government have been—and remain—fully engaged with the process.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

For the avoidance of doubt, will my hon. Friend confirm that the Government’s policy since the beginning of this saga has been motivated by a single and paramount concern—to secure the continued and orderly delivery of care to the right standards to the residents of these homes—and that, in that respect, this Government are operating unchanged precisely the policy operated by their predecessors?

[Paul Burstow]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to make that point, which allows me to make another point. The Health and Social Care Bill is currently before this House—Members are enjoying the Committee stage at this very moment—and it contains the very provisions that will allow us to put in place a regime, which currently does not exist, to ensure proper oversight and engagement with those issues from a central Government perspective. The previous Government did not leave such a regime in place, nor did they put in place the necessary tools to allow the Government to do everything that they might want to do and that the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) might like us to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

We will return to that important matter later, with the urgent question. However, we must examine the position of Southern Cross and the business model that underpinned it very carefully, in order to understand how such a model was agreed to under the arrangements for regulating care providers that existed before the establishment of the Care Quality Commission.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

It is now more than a decade since Sir Derek Wanless first identified a funding gap in long-term care for the elderly. I welcome the Dilnot report, but will the Government act quickly to establish a partnership arrangement enabling private money contributed through insurance to be added to some public money, so that that funding gap can be filled?

[Paul Burstow]

The answer to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman’s question is that the Government are already committed, through the spending review, to the provision of an additional £7.2 billion for social care over the next four years, which will involve an unprecedented transfer of resources from the NHS to social care. As for the second part of his question, the Dilnot report makes many recommendations, and the Government will work through them and present their conclusions next year.

Southern Cross Healthcare

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Thursday 16th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

The hon. Gentleman asks a number of questions, some of which are for Ministers and others of which are for the landlords. He asked about NHP Ltd, and he is right to identify the fact that it is the largest landlord. He also asked about bank lending; obviously, the lenders have a key part to play in a solvent restructuring of the business, and that is why they were at the meeting yesterday. He mentioned HMRC, which, as an autonomous Government body responsible for making these decisions, is considering those matters at the moment.

The hon. Gentleman asks about the financial problems and the seeds of the problems. I urge him, in looking at the history of this, to look back several years to the restructuring of the company and the business model that was established and that caused the problem, and to ask himself who were in government at that time.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government have just one priority in this set of circumstances, and that is to secure the interests of residents? Will he assure the House that he will send a clear message into the system that there will be zero tolerance of any slippage in the quality conditions that are imposed on the providers of care to residents, and that he will continue to keep his eyes firmly focused on the day-by-day quality of care that is delivered to residents?

Winterbourne View Care Home

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

Of course, we need to ensure a full and thorough inquiry into all these matters, which is being undertaken in the serious case review, which will be chaired independently, and in the work of the CQC. That will go on as the Department brings together all the different reviews and that is why we are very pleased that Mark Goldring will take part in the process.

The hon. Lady suggests that there was confusion last week, but the confusion was only that which she sought to spread. We were very clear from the outset that we wanted to examine all the results from all the different inquiries, and that is what we are doing. We are not ruling out any further inquiries, but we want to ensure that the processes that are in hand are concluded and that we make judgments with the full facts available.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

May I welcome my hon. Friend’s announcements to the House this afternoon? Does he agree that although there has quite properly been a lot of focus on the CQC—Dame Jo Williams accepts that there have been quite clear failures in its supervision of the home—there are also some difficult questions to be answered, particularly by the commissioners of the care? What were they doing paying for care that clearly was not to the required standard? Equally importantly, there are some important questions for the professional regulatory bodies to answer. Did no doctor ever go into the home? If they did, what conclusions did they draw? Where were the nursing regulators in this case?

[Paul Burstow]

My right hon. Friend poses a number of questions that are at the heart of the various current inquiries. He is right to say that to focus solely on the CQC is to miss the point, as the primary responsibility rests with the provider organisation to recruit, train and supervise the right staff in the first place. He is also absolutely right to ask about the role of the commissioners and the professional regulators. Those are the issues that we are looking at and will examine, and I will come back to the House with answers in due course.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Burstow and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

The backdrop that the hon. Gentleman has just painted is a rather thin one. In fact, it does not exist at all. The Government set out in the Bill we published last week that there will be clear responsibilities on GP commissioning consortia, working in partnership with their colleagues in local government, to commission services in ways that will improve quality of life for people in his constituency, my constituency and the constituencies of all hon. Members.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that improved co-ordination between health and social care is fundamental to the delivery of the efficiency challenge faced by the health service and social services? Does he further agree that the £1 billion provided by the health service to reinforce that relationship is an important step taken by the Government to reinforce that interface? Can he assure the House that, as we move into the new world, the existing arrangements for good practice across that interface will be preserved?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I know that three questions will attract one answer from the Minister.