Mental Health and Unemployment

Debate between Paul Burstow and Kelvin Hopkins

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I am extremely interested in what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, and agree with all of it. In some cases, however, work itself can be the cause of mental health issues—for instance, when there is bullying or poor management. The work that we do in the Chamber makes us feel good about ourselves, and work can do that, but it can also be a cause of mental health problems.

[Paul Burstow]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. That is why I chose my words carefully. I said “Good work can be good for people’s health”, but, equally, bad work can be bad for people’s health. Poor employment practices and bullying cultures can indeed make a difference to the quality of a person’s mental health.

Adult Social Care

Debate between Paul Burstow and Kelvin Hopkins

Thursday 8th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)]

I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I start by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for granting it and my hon. Friends the Members for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) and for Stourbridge (Margot James) for securing it and leading it so well.

I have chosen to speak early in the debate because I want to spend the majority of it listening to colleagues. I undertake to respond to their questions in writing if necessary to ensure that we have a clear record of the Government’s position on these issues.

I pay tribute to the Care and Support Alliance. The lobby that it organised this week was a truly powerful event, because of the testimony of individuals who made the journey to Westminster to lobby their MPs. I had the pleasure of spending an hour being cross-examined by a large number of people on that lobby, and I found it a really useful opportunity to talk about social care.

I have been a Member of Parliament for more than 15 years and raised the issue of social care reform throughout that time. For far too long, it has been left in the “too difficult to do” drawer, and it is now due attention from the House and the Government. We must not make the mistake of putting it back in that drawer, which would be dangerously short-sighted.

What does high-quality social care mean? It means helping people to stay healthy, independent and out of hospital. As the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) said, it means reducing pressure on the NHS, but above all it means helping people to live the lives that they want—long, safe and comfortable lives with the maximum possible independence. That is why the coalition Government are determined to tackle social care, and we have already set to work on doing just that. We established the Commission on the Funding of Care and Support, chaired by Andrew Dilnot, to make recommendations on how we could develop an affordable and sustainable funding system for social care. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth outlined those recommendations.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

There is constant emphasis on the importance of independence and of people living their own lives, but many people who depend on care want company. Some would prefer to live in decent, appropriate care than to be left on their own in their home and not cared for appropriately. Is the Minister not aware of that?

[Paul Burstow]

I am most certainly aware of that. Social isolation is a huge burden on the individuals affected by it and has huge consequences for health care. That is why, when I talk about independence, I also mean interdependence—the recognition of the value of family support and carers, and of the fact that people need to be active in their community throughout their life. Social care has a role to play in enabling people to do just that, rather than become institutionalised in their own home or a care home. I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman about that.

The Dilnot commission made a number of recommendations on the development of a system such as I mentioned, and my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth described them well. In the spending review, we allocated an additional £2 billion by 2014-15 —£7.2 billion over the spending review period as a whole. In November 2010, we also set out our vision for social care reform, including the roll-out of personal budgets and greater personalisation. I agree that we need to ensure that that is genuinely about how we enrich people’s lives, not just an opportunity to reduce the available resources to individuals. We are also investing £400 million over four years to help to give carers much needed breaks. We are ensuring that the NHS is held firmly to account for delivering the money in the coming year by making sure that it has to account directly to carers’ organisations locally, and agree with local authorities the plans to provide breaks, spell out how many there will be and the size of the budget for that purpose.

It is also important to dispel a myth about social care, which has been hanging around for far too long—that, in some way, it is just like the NHS and free. As my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth said, it is not free and never has been. If people assume that the state will pick up the bill, they are unlikely to prepare themselves. If they do not prepare and they need help, the impact can be truly devastating for them and their families: life savings wiped out, family homes full of memories sold off, and thoughts of a comfortable retirement turned to dust.

We therefore recognise the problem, which is getting worse. Our population is ageing, and that should be a cause for celebration. Too often, debates about ageing in our media are couched in terms of demographic time bombs and the like. However, the current care and support system is not fit for purpose. I agree with the Care and Support Alliance about that. It is broken, and patching and mending it is no longer acceptable.

However, reforming social care will not be easy. As has been said, it will require bold thinking and difficult decisions. The Dilnot commission shed much needed light on the reality of social care funding. Soon, we will publish a White Paper and a progress report setting out our response to the recommendations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I apologise for being away from the debate for a short time, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was speaking in Westminster Hall on another subject. Being in two places at once, even for a Member of Parliament, is rather difficult.

I have long had an interest in this subject. I congratulate the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on securing this important debate and my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) on her excellent speech. I also give full credit to the two Front-Bench spokesmen because I believe that they genuinely care about this matter and are not just speaking warm words. I appreciate that.

I will focus on residential care, but I believe that domiciliary care is also in a poor state. I know of many cases in my constituency of people not being looked after well under the new privatised, personalised approach to care. The contrast between that type of care and what people get from an NHS district nurse who goes around to tend to people is extreme. I have spent a day with one of my local district nurses—they are not called that any more, but Members know who I am talking about—and seen how a true professional, a public employee motivated by the public service ethos, treats their patients at home. That is how all sorts of care ought to be provided, rather than by private companies or private individuals who often have heavy work loads, are impatient and do not provide the care and sympathy that they should when they visit people in their homes.

The royal commission on long-term care for the elderly, which recommended that care ought to be free at the point of need on the same basis as the national health service, was absolutely right. The Government of the time rejected its recommendation, and went so far as to ensure that a couple of members of the commission voted against it so that it was a majority view, not a unanimous one. I personally think that was a terrible thing to do. I have raised it before in the Chamber and probably will again, because I think it was so wrong. Nevertheless, the royal commission recommended free long-term care for all, and I absolutely agreed.

I tabled an early-day motion in the 1997 to 2001 Parliament calling for the Government to adopt the royal commission’s recommendations. More than 120 Members signed it, most of them Labour Members, but other parties were represented as well. No notice was taken of it. The current Minister was one of the signatories. I tabled another early-day motion in the 2001-05 Parliament saying the same thing, and it got similar support. I hope I am not embarrassing him, but he tabled a similar motion when he was in opposition, which I supported. We were on the same side at that time, and I like to think that he is doing his best to push that agenda forward within the constraints of the coalition.

My position is absolutely clear: I believe that there should be free long-term care for all, provided by a professional care service of directly employed public service workers. That is how people would be served best, and it would be properly publicly accountable.

[Paul Burstow]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that I signed early-day motions supportive of the royal commission, but I need to correct the record ever so slightly. He is giving the impression that the royal commission recommended that all aspects of long-term care should be free. I am sure he will want to acknowledge that accommodation and hotel costs were not intended to be covered by its proposal.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I thank the Minister for his correction, and I think the situation is possibly similar in the health service.

I come to the problem of affordability. I remember that in the early days after 1997, the Government were trying to keep down public spending, and there was a crisis in the NHS because of under-spending. That crisis was inherited from the previous Government, but for the first two or three years after 1997 nothing happened. We got well behind in what we needed to do to fund the NHS.

During that Parliament, the standard rate of income tax was reduced by 1p, and nobody even noticed. I believe that at that time, 1p on income tax was the equivalent of about £3 billion, and that income was just lost. It could have been spent on long-term care or the health service, but the decision was taken to reduce tax. Later on, in the last Parliament, the then Chancellor decided to reduce the standard rate of tax by 2p. I am not suggesting that the standard rate of income tax is necessarily the way to pay for care, but it is not right to say that things are unaffordable when big tax cuts are being made. I believe that 1p on the rate would now raise about £4 billion or 2p about £8 billion—plenty to pay for free long-term care for all who need it.

Social Care Funding

Debate between Paul Burstow and Kelvin Hopkins

Thursday 10th November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Paul Burstow]

I do not believe we should micro-manage the decisions of every local authority. We should not dictate to local authorities about how to manage their resources. One message that came from local government before the election, which we, as a coalition, have responded to, was the desire to remove ring fences from budgets to give councils maximum flexibility. Total Place is exactly what that is about. It is about using budgets smartly to meet local needs in the best way to fit the community’s circumstances. In the past, such flexibility was constrained by the number of ring fences.

I have also picked up on some scepticism in the debate about the additional funding that is being provided through the spending review for adult social care via the NHS. There was some question as to whether or not that money was getting through. Of the £648 million for this year, nearly half has already been transferred—we know that from surveys that we have conducted—and agreements are in place to transfer the remainder. As to the reference to the money for carers, that was not part of this social care transfer; it was a separate requirement under the NHS operating framework. I am more than happy to debate that at a later stage, but right now I need to try to cover the main points in this debate.

Both primary care trusts and local authorities are positive about the development of these particular funds. They have seen them as a lever for more joint planning and co-operation. The feedback that we have had to date shows that the money is being spent on what it was intended for—prevention and rehabilitation, re-ablement, early supported hospital discharge schemes and integrated crisis response services. I am saying not that the money is a panacea but that those funds are making a difference in the communities in which they are being used smartly by the NHS and social care organisations. Times are tough and I am not going to pretend otherwise. Although I can present a relatively positive picture nationally, there are areas where cuts to front-line adult social care services are really beginning to bite.

Although some councils have coped with the cuts by tightening their eligibility criteria, it is not fair to suggest that that started in May last year. The trend started back in 2005. The way in which councils define and apply eligibility criteria is not consistent from one borough to the next. We will address those issues of definition as part of the review that we are taking forward in the White Paper.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Even squeezing at the margins means that more people will suffer and not get the care that they need. In other fields we spend more freely, relatively, and yet we are squeezing in this area. The Minister said that 70% of the cuts in spending is to deal with inefficiencies, but 30% is real front-line spending, which means that some people are suffering.

[Paul Burstow]

I am trying hard to be reasoned and respond positively to the points that have been made. I am not trying to dismiss things. I am not making a speech that pretends that everything is perfect. I am trying to engage seriously with the real problems that local authorities are having to grapple with. I am also trying to set out that there are different ways of doing things. Some councils are choosing to do things differently and in ways that allow them to protect the quality of the service and the outcomes for the individual. That is the test that is most important to me.

In regard to eligibility, the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South asked about portability. It is one of the 76 recommendations in the Law Commission report. In the “Vision for Adult Social Care” that we published last November, I said that we are minded to progress the idea of portability in assessments. There is further debate to be had about how we translate that into portability of outcomes and services, and that is one of the issues that we are considering in the White Paper.

As I have said, we have a mixed picture across the country. It does not bear out the simplistic formula of “less money equals more cuts.” Age UK and WRVS are publishing a report which I will read with interest when it comes out. An illuminating report was published in September by Demos and Scope, which looks at how disabled people have been affected by budget changes in local authorities. We might expect to find that the biggest cuts in front-line services are made by the councils that face the most dramatic cuts in their income, but that is simply not the case. Demos’s report suggests that there is no direct cause and effect. The councils that it applauds for coping the best have not enjoyed the most generous settlements, and they are not concentrated in the most affluent areas. Rural and urban areas and rich and poor areas are found in equal measure at both the top and bottom of the table.

There are tough choices to be made in every town hall as well as in every part of Whitehall and in the national health service, but we need the choices to be smart, too, Places such as Tameside have invested in re-ablement services that help people back to independence after a period of illness and ultimately reduce their care needs. Tameside estimates that that saved it £2.3 million, which it then reinvested. Somerset county council has commissioned a number of projects that use volunteers to help people with low and moderate care needs to run their own groups, form friendship circles and keep in touch with activities available in their local community.

The West Sussex-based Carewise service was recognised by Which? magazine as a model of best practice. It helps older people who pay for their care to plan their futures. Planning, which is all too often absent, has been a theme of the debate. The organisation ensures that people get good financial advice. We are talking about improving services through integration, which is another important theme of the debate as is the use of personal budgets. Those budgets are now being rolled out through the trail-blazer pilots for direct payments for social care, for personal health budgets and for personal budgets in respect of Supporting People. Such changes begin to give the individual the opportunity to have a Total Place approach to the way in which they use resources and allow resources to be used to best effect.

When I went to Knowsley last year to see what was being done on integration, the most powerful aspect of the approach used was the fact that it involved thinking about “the Knowsley pound.” And in Torbay, which I also visited, the approach there was to look at everything through the eyes of “Mrs Smith.” It may not be appropriate in every community to look through the eyes of a “Mrs Smith,” but in Torbay it was thought appropriate. Officials in Knowsley and Torbay made the leap in the approaches that they took to see money not as theirs—to be held within the boundaries of their institutions—but as their community’s money, to be spent wisely on behalf of their community. That is the essential ingredient in delivering effective use of public money in times of austerity.

That brings me to the case for reform. Despite the funding challenges, there are steps that councils are able to take now to improve social care services and I hope that they will take those steps.

I will talk about reform in detail. I have been in the House for 14 years, so I am now entitled at least to have a sense of déjà vu about this debate, like some other Members who have been in the House for a long time. However, I think we are at a different stage in the debate. We are building on the work that has been done—the listening that has happened and the engagement that has taken place—over many years. Indeed, in framing the terms of reference for Andrew Dilnot, we set him the task of looking at everything that had been done in the past 13 years to ensure that we did not just reinvent the wheel and that we learned from what had been heard already. I am keen that we continue to do just that.

I am also keen that in this debate we address a very important issue about understanding, which is the issue about the nasty little secret at the heart of social care. It is a secret that we MPs all share and know about, but seven out of 10 people in this country do not know about it. It is that social care is not free and in fact has never been free. At the moment, we are in a situation where people look at the proposals that Andrew Dilnot has put forward and he is judged not against the standard of the reality of our experience of social care, which has been so well described in this debate, but against a fantasy of social care that is free, just as the NHS is free. All of us in this Chamber and all of us who have an interest in reform in this sector need to ensure that we do not allow that fantasy to get in the way of judging Andrew Dilnot’s proposals fairly.

That is a key part of how we can ensure that we make progress in this area. Indeed, it is key because of the catastrophic costs that people face. Those costs have been touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh), and by the hon. Members for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) and for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins). They talked about the anger that people feel that they have saved, worked, invested in their lives and been thrifty, only to have it all snatched away at the point that they are in need of support from the system. That issue of fairness is part of what we asked Andrew Dilnot to look at.

I want to make two more comments before I sit down for the concluding speech. There has been talk about the cap, about whether it does anything for carers and about changing the way that the system works. I want to make a suggestion that people need to think about. The cap has to be metered. People have to enter the system and then move towards the cap. The way that we design the meter is the way that we incentivise prevention; the way that we design the meter is the way that we build carers in and respect and value what they contribute. I hope that people will think about that in the weeks remaining before we conclude our process of debate and deliberation, leading up to the White Paper next year, because that is one of the ways in which we can redesign the system to be a system that is about supporting what people can do, that is about enabling communities to support people and that is about enabling families to contribute in the way that they want to.

My final comment is that I have found this debate to be very helpful and a useful airing of the issues. I hope we shall continue to debate these issues in Parliament and continue to have the debate in the community. But it is not just an open-ended debate; it has to be a debate that is closed and that comes to conclusions. That is what the White Paper is about. The White Paper is the conclusion of 14 years, as far as I am concerned. It is about how we get to the next stage.

I was asked about legislation. Let me just say that it is well above my pay grade to be the one who announces what will be in the next Queen’s Speech; I probably would not be a Minister for much longer if I were to do that today. However, when the decisions are made we will have looked at this process and the White Paper outcomes, and I hope we will be in a position to legislate at the earliest opportunity. Social care has languished and rested in the “too-difficult-to-do” box for far too long. We are the Government who are committed; we see the urgency and the need. I hope that together we can get the cross-party lead that results in the changes that are long, long overdue.