Care Sector

Paul Burstow Excerpts

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to open a debate on the important subject of the future of our care sector and the contribution that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills must play to ensure that the sector thrives.

I will start by providing some facts, after which I will set out the challenges, the opportunities and the actions that BIS can take. According to research undertaken for Skills for Care, adult social care in England is worth an estimated £43 billion to the economy, both directly and indirectly, and it supports 2.8 million full-time equivalent jobs.

The care sector is not a small adjunct to the NHS; it employs some 1.5 million people in 1.3 million full-time equivalent jobs, or about 6.4% of the entire work force. The sector is bigger in employment terms than the construction industry or the transportation, storage and postal services industries combined. Women make up 82% of the care sector work force. Despite the squeeze on public spending over the past few years, the sector has grown and added more than 210,000 jobs.

The challenges are clear. Our population is changing. We are living longer—a good thing, not a bad thing. The age structure is changing, and the fastest-growing section of the population is the over-85s. By 2030, it is estimated that there will be 2.3 million people aged over 85. Other things are also changing. Many people are having children later, and families are living further apart. There are more family break-ups and divorces, and there are more single people in later life who may not have family support structures.

On present trends, the care work force will need to grow by some 1 million workers by 2025. If the trends are to be addressed, 40% of the projected increase in the working-age population will need to enter the care sector, so a huge proportion of our work force potentially has a part to play in the sector. To put it another way, England could face a shortfall of 718,000 care workers over the next 10 years. If those challenges are not addressed, the care sector will act as a brake on growth and a threat to the hard-won gains in labour market participation by women.

I sought to have this debate with colleagues from BIS, because I believe that the Department has a crucial part to play in addressing the care sector, in the same way as it works with any other part of our economy. As long as the sector continues to be sponsored in Government solely by the Department of Health, I do not believe that the blinkers will come off in terms of addressing the opportunities and the threats that the sector poses for our economy. All too often, the Treasury views the care sector as a dead-weight cost to the economy, but I believe that it must be viewed as a vital part of the nation’s economic infrastructure and a key enabler of labour market participation in later life and by women.

The Government have recognised that issue when it comes to investment in child care, and I believe that the same value and recognition must be given to adult care. A study by the Institute of Education, published in autumn 2014, found that 50-somethings feel sandwiched between child raising, caring for elderly parents and the expectation, which is rightly growing, that they will work longer because life spans are increasing.

The first six weeks of an informal caring role by a family member can be decisive in determining whether that person will remain in work. The triggers are well documented, many and varied. When someone is caught in the middle of a care crisis as a result of an accident or a fall, and they have to juggle working responsibilities with child-raising responsibilities and uncertainty about the quality and reliability of care, that often becomes the trigger—the final straw—for them to decide that they cannot carry on working.

Even when employers accept that they should offer the option of flexible working—many more employers are now doing so—it is not always sufficient to enable such people to stay in the work place. One in six carers reports quitting work to care full time, and the factors that I have described drive them to make that important, life-changing decision, which affects their health and probably also their long-term wealth. Of course, it should be a choice, but for many people it turns out to be a necessity because no alternative is available for them.

Many such employees are businesses’ most important and valuable staff. Companies have invested in them over years. They are people in their 40s, 50s and 60s who hold the corporate memories of the businesses for which they work, and employers cannot afford to lose them lightly. Strategies that enable those employees to make real choices rather than finding themselves forced out of the work force are, therefore, very important. The situation will get worse unless the contribution of the care sector, and that of the wider personal and household services sectors, is recognised.

In 2012, during the period for which I had the privilege of serving as Minister with responsibility for care, one thing that I did was to convene a summit involving Carers UK, Employers for Carers and a range of academics and others from around Europe to look at different approaches to addressing some of the issues that I have outlined. As a result of that summit, a task and finish group was set up to look at the economic case for investing in and developing the sector, particularly the personal and household services sector. That group involved six Departments, including BIS and Her Majesty’s Treasury, as well as leading academics, charities and employers. It reported in 2013, setting out a compelling business case for the multiplier effect that can be triggered by increasing the demand for personal and household services and, as a result, supporting labour market participation.

Employees become carers, and 2.3 million people move in and out of caring responsibilities every year. The number of carers is rising because of the demographic trends that I have mentioned. Carers seek services that enable them to make a choice; 41% of carers would like to work if suitable care and support services were available.

One of the conclusions of the task and finish group was that barriers to work, and to remaining in work, are not so much about employer support as about access to good services. Carers want to work; eight out of 10 are of working age, and about 3 million are currently working. That means, however, that some 1.4 million are not working, and many of them would like to be able to do so. If we want more people to work longer, and if we want more women to be able to work, there has to be more help for carers.

What can BIS do about the situation? It is important to stress that employers are becoming increasingly aware of the risks to their businesses of a labour market that becomes less flexible over the next 10, 15 or 20 years as demographic changes work through and the labour market tightens. Employers recognise the increasing demand for care, support and personal and household services, but they also recognise the danger of market failure if that demand is not met, and if the problems that I have described become much more serious and constrain the growth of our economy as a consequence. I am not suggesting that BIS currently does nothing about the matter; it has a good record, particularly on carers.

I hope, however, that we can widen and deepen the Department’s engagement and understanding of the risks and opportunities. Notwithstanding the constraints on the Government’s time, I wonder whether there might be an opportunity to open that dialogue. Many people in the sector would welcome the opportunity to have a dialogue with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

The Department can also play a part in encouraging local enterprise partnerships to do more. I have conducted a fairly ropey survey of LEPs to ascertain which are engaging seriously with care sector issues, and only a very small number have any reference to the care and personal and household services sectors in their strategies, plans and actions. Those sectors do not appear to be on their radar. One rare example of an LEP that is doing something is, I am sorry to say, not in my constituency or in London but in Greater Lincolnshire, where the LEP is working with Skills for Care and doing some really good work. That may be a model, or at least a starting place, for other LEPs to follow.

Another area in which the Department can help immensely is in addressing the low pay, low status culture that pervades the sector. The National Audit Office estimated in a recent report that as many as 220,000 carers are paid less than the national minimum wage. Surely, it is time that we ensured that that is properly and vigorously pursued. It is not sufficient for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to say, as it often does, that it is unable to mount prosecutions because of inadequacies in employers’ documentation. We pursue those who defraud our benefits system and those who fail to pay the tax that they should be paying. We have invested large sums in strengthening HMRC’s capacity to pursue those who cheat the tax system, and we need to ensure that exploitative employers who cheat their employees—there are good employers in the sector who do not cheat their employees—are prosecuted, thereby setting an example. The Low Pay Commission and, indeed, the HMRC say that the problem is getting worse, not better, so we need action to ensure that those who are exploiting their workers are properly pursued.

In the past 18 months, I have led two independent commissions examining the future of residential care and the future of home care, and both commissions, with experts, academics and people from the sector, have concluded that the sector’s long-term sustainability requires better terms and conditions and that the sector’s goal must be a living wage if it is to attract and retain the staff it needs. Indeed, the sector has among the highest staff turnover rates of any part of our economy. As a consequence, at its worst, those in receipt of care services report seeing as many as 50 different care workers a year. How can someone develop a relationship and have an understanding of the needs of the person for whom they are caring if the next thing they are likely to be doing is moving to Tesco to stack shelves, rather than seeing care as a long-term career? In recognition of that, I hope the Department, either by itself or with others, will consider commissioning work to understand the extent of the hidden subsidies in the sector. Low-paid workers often receive top-up payments through the working tax credits system, rather than from resources directed to ensure that people are paid a proper wage in the first place—in other words, rather than investing money in the service.

We need to work with Skills for Care and the sector to bridge the work force gap by increasing the number of men working in the sector. Some 94% of young people agree that care work is a suitable profession for a man, which is certainly right. A quarter of 16 to 25-year-olds say that they would never consider care as an occupation, and a third of young men say that they do not know enough about care as an occupation. Changing the status of care jobs, giving care jobs key worker status and improving training, pay and conditions could all make a significant difference in shifting the dial on the sector’s credibility as a place to work and build a career and a life.

The care sector’s contribution to the UK economy is all too often overlooked; it is seen as a cost, not as the huge contributor that it is to our economy. As our population ages, the care sector will be critical to our economic success. It will be critical to delivering the Government’s agenda, which successive Governments will now need to have, of promoting later and longer working lives. The care sector will be vital if we are to maintain this Government’s successes in increasing female participation in the labour market. I hope that, through this debate, we can kick-start more work, more thought and more action to ensure that we recognise the sector’s contribution and to ensure that that is properly reflected in Government policy and Government spending decisions in the next and subsequent Parliaments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) on securing this debate and on his many years of intensive, dedicated work on these issues. Although I am the Minister responding to the debate, I do so with a degree of trepidation because there are probably few people who have a greater understanding or are able to speak with more eloquence about care and carers than him, particularly with his ministerial experience but also with his interest in the issue going back many years. Since leaving ministerial office, his interest has continued through his chairing of the commission on residential care—of course, the Demos report came out of that—and he continues to take up such issues at every opportunity. It is unsurprising that he will have a key role in speaking on care as the election approaches.

I am sure the care sector will be a key issue that is discussed in great detail during the election period because, as my right hon. Friend said, it has an impact on so many different parts of our lives. It is about quality of life for people as they age or, indeed, for people with disabilities who require care. It is also about the role of women in the workplace and how they can combine that role with their caring responsibilities. As he rightly pointed out, care is an issue for men, too, not only in terms of their own caring responsibilities—although the majority of caring responsibilities in our society still fall to women—but in terms of the economic and employment opportunities for men within these sectors.

In a short debate, it is difficult to do justice to every issue, but my right hon. Friend rightly recognises that this debate is part of an ongoing dialogue. He made the helpful point that this is not only a debate and dialogue to be had with the Department of Health. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills also has a crucial involvement, as indeed do many other Departments, including the Department for Work and Pensions and the Government Equalities Office, which is the other Department for which I wear a hat. The Government Equalities Office is hugely interested in these issues, and it is already working with other Departments on some of the thorny problems about how we can help carers who are in employment to continue working, if that is what they wish to do—and, as he said, many do—alongside their caring responsibilities.

My right hon. Friend clearly set out the care sector’s significant contribution to the economy. The sector brings in billions of pounds to the UK and creates millions of jobs, with mix of private provision and public and voluntary sector jobs. Care will become more salient as our population continues to age. I am sure he agrees that it is a cause for celebration that people are living longer and that medical advances mean that we are able to cure more diseases and prolong life, but, of course, that creates significant challenges on how we can age well and how we can have quality and dignity throughout longer lives, which will often mean that people work longer, particularly given the economics. We must recognise the important role of older people in our economy. Ros Altmann, whom the Government appointed as the champion for older workers, is doing a sterling job, and she will produce a report in the not-too-distant future setting out how we can better value the role that older people play within the work force. It is quite right that that is happening.

My right hon. Friend discussed the sandwich generation, which is a particularly resonant issue. That group of people—mainly women, but not exclusively—are feeling pressure from both sides. They have responsibilities to children or even grandchildren; equally, they have caring responsibilities for elderly parents or other relatives. Although a huge amount of love and joy comes from caring responsibilities, at the same time, the pressure of fulfilling them often also creates a huge amount of stress. Often carers must battle with public services to get what they need to provide those individuals with quality of life, while trying to hold down a full-time job. The pressures certainly mount up; carers are some of the most pressured people in our society.

In those circumstances, it is perhaps not surprising to hear the statistic that my right hon. Friend quoted: one in six carers quit work to care full-time. That is a huge loss to the economy. Some of those people wish to do so, which is absolutely fine, but when people are forced to do so, we lose the contribution that they could be making. As my right hon. Friend rightly says, the businesses and organisations for which they work suddenly have a gap in experience, knowledge and skills, which they must try to fill. In many cases, it takes significant time before a new person can fulfil that role in the same way. There is an economic opportunity cost.

My right hon. Friend is right that many employers now recognise some of those risks. There are many enlightened employers out there; I engage across my employment relations role with companies that recognise that equality in terms of gender, race, religion and sexuality is an important business issue in recruiting and retaining the right talent. They recognise that a more agile work force can not only help the business to respond to emerging challenges but give individual employees much more flexibility. That attracts a wider pool, which includes people with caring responsibilities. Many of those companies—often, but not exclusively, larger companies—are starting to see the business risks and huge potential advantages of getting it right and putting in place policies that allow people’s working lives to fit in with their responsibilities outside work.

My right hon. Friend is also right that as the trend of decreasing unemployment continues—it is still too high, particularly for young people, but it is certainly moving in the right direction, and its rise in the past few years has been a great success story—it places more pressure on employers trying to find the right people and the right mix of skills within their organisation, making it even more important for them to be able to hold on to the talented people that they have.

The Government clearly have a role to play in that. As I said, we engage with employers to encourage best practice on a regular basis, but we have also made legislative change. For example, as my right hon. Friend will know, last June, the right to request flexible working was extended to all employees. That will be helpful in changing views on flexible working, which had been stigmatised in some corners as being only for a particular group of people and as creating unhelpful divisions within workplaces. Instead, it is becoming much more the norm: the modern way of doing business is that, where flexibility is possible, it will be accepted by default. Clearly, there will sometimes be business reasons why an employer cannot agree to a flexible working request, and that is built into the system. That kind of change can help drive the difference that we need.

My right hon. Friend discussed the quality of the caring work force, which is hugely important. As he said, it is about who the elderly person sees coming in to support them. He said that some people see up to 50 different care workers in a year. That is clearly not a situation that any of us would wish in our older years, and we should not encourage it. Staff turnover is hugely important, and a range of things can be done to help address it.

My right hon. Friend rightly mentioned the status of caring as a profession. Training and qualifications are one way to signpost that, which is why the Department of Health is supporting the social care sector through the social care work force programme, which focuses on improving quality, and introducing the care certificate in April this year for new health care assistants and social care support workers. Apprenticeships also have a role to play in ensuring that employers have proper standards and are training people appropriately.

My right hon. Friend mentioned the hugely relevant issue of the need for more men in the care sector. If there is a shortage of workers in a particular field, it makes sense to consider who is going into that line of work, in the exact same way that when considering the huge shortage of engineering skills that our country faces and how we can bridge that gap, we look at the fact that only 7% of engineers are women. Clearly, the biggest pool of people we are not currently tapping into is girls and young women, whom we must encourage to study science, technology, engineering and maths and to open their horizons, rather than being led by dated stereotypes about what girls can do.

Similarly, if we need to expand the number of care workers and there is a huge shortage of men in the care profession, the biggest pool available for expansion is boys and young men, and we need to get them to consider caring as a profession. Again, stereotyping is important, as are the messages we send children about the roles of men and women, and whether boys can be nurturing and caring and—yes, dare I say it?—play with dolls. We should see habits of care and nurture as being just as appropriate for boys and men as for girls and women. It is important, and it will help us plug the skills gap.

I want to address the national minimum wage, because it is hugely relevant to the care sector, perhaps unfortunately. In an ideal world, we would all want people to be paid significantly more than the national minimum wage, but the present economics of the sector mean that many care workers rely on the national minimum wage for wage protection. There have been a number of well-documented cases involving people not being paid what they are due, particularly in the care sector, which, as my right hon. Friend said, has traditionally been a low-wage sector.

The law is crystal clear. Care workers, like any other workers, are legally entitled to receive at least the national minimum wage. If they travel between care appointments, the time spent travelling is working time, so they must also be paid the national minimum wage then. If they must pay for their uniforms, any money deducted for that cannot count towards national minimum wage calculations; they must be paid the national minimum on top of that.

The law is absolutely clear. Many employers comply—that is fine, it is appropriate and it is what should happen—but some do not, and failure to pay is a serious issue. That is why there are tough consequences for employers who break the law. If anyone is concerned about whether they are being properly paid the national minimum wage, they should contact the pay and work rights helpline on 0800 917 2368. Every complaint will be investigated.

[Paul Burstow]

It is important that people know that number, but it is also important for third parties to be able to make referrals about abuses of national minimum wage rules, so that they can be investigated. Is that a change that could happen?

[Jo Swinson]

I do not think that there is anything preventing that from happening at the moment. Every complaint is investigated, and it is important to stress that all complaints are made in confidence. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs will not just go and say, “Is Mr Joe Bloggs being paid appropriately?”; it will investigate the entire work force if necessary. Many of the care investigations that have taken place have found arrears for tens and, in some cases involving very large companies, for hundreds or thousands of workers. Those are obviously complex investigations.

Proactive investigations happen. There was a particular period of targeted enforcement in the care sector, from 2011 to 2013. We recognise that the issue is important and are returning to the care sector for proactive work. That process is now under way, so more will happen. Currently, 94 employers in the care sector are being investigated for national minimum wage issues, and when those investigations conclude, we will see whether they have broken the law. If so, there are tough penalties, including naming and shaming, and we have taken steps to increase the resources available to HMRC for that vital work.

Oral Answers to Questions

Paul Burstow Excerpts

Thursday 10th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Willott]

We would probably all agree that the gender and ethnic balance in boardrooms is not as we would like. However, significant progress is being made. At the start of this Parliament, about 12% of FTSE 100 board members were women. The figure is now more than 20% and we are on target to make that a quarter by the election. The Government are taking the matter seriously and working hard to change the culture throughout companies by introducing measures such as flexible working and shared parental leave, which send out the message that the Government think this issue is extremely important. We are working with employers to change the culture in businesses from top to bottom.

[Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

10. What estimate his Department has made of the contribution of life sciences to the UK economy.

[The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)]

The life sciences industry contributes more than £13 billion a year to the UK economy. Since the launch of our life sciences strategy, industry has been investing £1 billion a year in Britain.

[Paul Burstow]

Sutton is home to the Institute of Cancer Research and the Royal Marsden. Together, they have a formidable global reputation in the fight against cancer. As part of its Opportunity Sutton programme, my council has a shared plan with those two organisations to develop a life science cluster. Will the Minister meet me and representatives of those organisations to discuss how the Department can facilitate the co-ordination of policy across Government to secure that vision and the 4,000 extra jobs that will come with it?

[Mr Willetts]

I would be happy to meet my right hon. Friend. That is exactly the kind of initiative that the Mayor of London envisaged when he launched his MedCity initiative earlier this week. We look forward to a golden triangle that links Oxford, Cambridge and Sutton.

School Funding

Paul Burstow Excerpts

Thursday 13th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Laws]

Certainly. We are announcing significant amounts of money today. Hon. Members on both sides of the House need to reflect on the consequence for many millions of young people over a long period of the fact that their schools were not funded fairly in many parts of the country.

[Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for the announcement about basic needs capital earlier this year, including the £35 million to enable Sutton to provide extra secondary school places. In his statement, he mentioned Sutton as one of the potential beneficiaries of the changes. Sutton has been short-changed in funding for education for at least 30 years, if not 40 years. Will he give us some indication of the good news that pupils, teachers and schools in Sutton can now expect in securing extra resources for teaching?

[Mr Laws]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for welcoming this announcement. In the paper on which we will consult, Sutton is among the top five authorities that we consider to be under-funded and is therefore among the top five beneficiaries. He will know that the funding rate in Sutton is £4,360 at present; under the proposal we are consulting on, it will rise to £4,637, which is an increase of 6.4%.

Post Office Closure (Sutton)

Paul Burstow Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

It is great to have the opportunity to raise this matter in Westminster Hall this morning, and to debate the issue with the Minister. I look forward to his response to the issues I want to bring on behalf of constituents and business interests in my constituency.

There is a proposal to close two Crown post offices in Sutton and create one replacement Crown post office. The Crown post office in the St Nicholas shopping centre is to close. That is in Sutton high street—I will say more about the geography of my constituency and the town in a minute. Under the proposals, its business will be transferred to another post office, on Grove road, outside the main commercial district of Sutton town centre.

I will start by giving some geographical context. Sutton town centre is on an old coaching route out of London towards Brighton. That might not seem immediately relevant until I mention that the sites of the old coaching inns at the top and bottom of the town—the Angel inn and the Cock inn—are at the bottom and top of a hill. In just under 1 km, the climb from the bottom of my town centre to its top covers 25 metres, so it is quite a haul to get from bottom to the top of that hill. That is one of the challenges of how town centres have been constructed over the years.

The climb is an issue that comes up in my mailbag and it leads to people not always choosing to shop in Sutton. The proposals will result in the Crown post office in the St Nicholas centre, which is at the heart of the town, being closed, and the next nearest being at the top of the hill. That will be an inconvenience. It is vexing many of my constituents, although it is not the only reason why they feel vexed by the proposals.

The coaching inns have gone, and so have the coaches, and today we have a Crown post office at the top of the town and one in the middle of the town. At the moment, the proposals seem to amount to the Post Office placing its own convenience ahead of that of the public. The closure of the post office in the middle of the town will cause the maximum inconvenience to the maximum number of customers of the Post Office’s services.

I have a number of objections to the proposals, as do the London borough of Sutton local authority and many other interested parties. The first, as I have said, is the geography and topography of the area, which is an important consideration, particularly for some of the people who use the services. Sutton has a stable and settled population, and around the town centre there is a large elderly population. Those people are being told that they must now climb to the top of the hill to use the remaining post office in Grove road. I should stress that Grove road is part of Sutton’s one-way system, which allows the high street—the main commercial district of the town—to be a pedestrian-only area. Grove road is a wide, busy, fast road and marks an important break between the retail heart of the town and the outer parts of the area.

I have received expressions of support and of concern about the proposals, not only from residents but from local businesses. Sutton town centre has a business improvement district, called Successful Sutton—a really good initiative taken by the town’s business leaders, who have taken the opportunity to use resources to invest in their own future. As part of Successful Sutton, there was a pre-Christmas offer to shoppers that introduced a complimentary customer buggy, similar to the sort of buggies used at airports, to transport people up and down the hill I just mentioned. The director of Successful Sutton, Ross Feeney, has told me that when the users of the service were surveyed ahead of its proposed winding down after Christmas, many said that one of their principal concerns, and one reason that they would like the service to be retained, was the threatened closure of the post office in the St Nicholas centre.

It was not only customers who were concerned. Successful Sutton has also told me that, as the leader of local businesses in the town centre, it is concerned, and many of its members have expressed concern as well, for a number of reasons. When I met Successful Sutton’s representatives to discuss the closure, they were particularly concerned about the impact it would have on cash businesses in the town, which need to be able to bank their money at the end of the day. The convenience of having a post office in the heart of the retail district was important to those businesses, for safety and security and their ability to carry on with business operations.

Another concern raised was that traders want easy access to parcel services. As the proposals would close a post office in a major shopping mall, a further issue is the loss of footfall and potential loss of trade. Post offices are often important anchors in such facilities. The impact is not just on the general public but on the business community and the town itself.

I referred earlier to the Post Office putting its own convenience ahead of the public’s, and I hope the Minister will be able to help by getting some information from the Post Office and possibly Royal Mail. The Grove road Crown post office is leased from Royal Mail, on what I understand are very favourable terms—part of the reason why the Post Office wishes to consolidate activity at that site. However, the site is a valuable piece of real estate. Although at present there is nothing, to my knowledge, in the development pipeline, its location next to Sutton railway station must make it a candidate for consideration by Royal Mail as to whether best use is being made of the site in the long run. The future of that site is a real question, as is the impact there would be on provision of Crown post office services if the site were to be disposed of and redeveloped in future.

I turn to the St Nicholas centre post office itself. My understanding is that the Post Office walked away from negotiations about renewing that site’s lease despite the flexible approach being adopted by the owners of the St Nicholas centre. I hope that the Minister will pursue with the Post Office the issue of whether those negotiations might be reopened.

Sutton faces an unwelcome consultation about the loss of its post office. I think that there is a case for keeping both Crown post offices; I know that is what my constituents would prefer, but I am sure that I am going to be told the economic costs of doing so and just how expensive Crown post offices are. However, if there is to be a merger, the Post Office must put the needs of its customers first. Maintaining a Crown post office in the heart of the retail centre of the town should be the minimum the Post Office seeks to do.

My requests to the Minister are as follows. Will he assure me that customers will be put first, and in the event of a merger the best location for the post office will be the Post Office’s priority? Secondly, will he press the Post Office to re-engage with the owners of the St Nicholas centre and to discuss options with Sutton council and with me? Thirdly, will he clarify the safeguards and guarantees that are in place already or could be put in place should the Grove road Crown post office become the candidate for the new merged and expanded Crown post office, so that, down the line, my constituents do not face the prospect of a redevelopment leading to another search for an alternative location for a Crown post office?

Those are the issues I want to put to the Minister today. They are causes of concern for my local authority, the local business community, local residents and local traders. I hope that he will be able to give us some indication of how the Post Office can engage constructively with those issues and I look forward to his response.

[The Minister for Skills and Enterprise (Matthew Hancock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton, and to respond to this debate. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) on securing the debate and welcome the opportunity to discuss post office provision in Sutton and more broadly. I acknowledge the role he has played and the reasonable tone he has adopted in tackling the tricky issue of the best future for the Post Office and its customers in Sutton.

We all recognise the Post Office’s vital role in our communities throughout the country. Communities are worried whenever changes are proposed to the post office network, not least because, as well as being shops, they are a vital hub of the local community. That is one reason why we made a commitment to provide almost £2 billion in the years to 2018 to protect the post office network, to ensure service provision in communities and to put the network on a long-term footing. As I am sure my right hon. Friend expects, that will be the basis of my response today.

We are acting now to the tune of almost £2 billion and are committed to ensuring that the post office network is sustainable in the long term. That is particularly important following the closure programmes in 2003 and 2008, which saw 5,500 post offices close permanently under the previous Government. This Government’s extra spending on the post office network to secure its future has achieved the most stable network in more than two decades.

The closure programme impacted on many constituencies, including Sutton, and we must take account of later changes within the context of 5,500 post offices having closed over the last decade or so. Some local sub-post offices in Sutton closed in the last decade, and I hope that my right hon. Friend agrees that our long-term spending to secure a sustainable future for the network is the right broad approach. We are ensuring that a minimum network size of 11,500 branches is maintained and investing in those branches to ensure that they are high quality, attractive and more financially sustainable.

[Paul Burstow]

The Minister is right to talk about the loss of sub-post offices in my constituency and many others. A map of Sutton and Cheam shows large gaps in the network, with inconvenience for people who need access to a post office. One has been closed for a long time, but was never formally closed. I hope we will hear good news about that one reopening.

[Matthew Hancock]

I cannot give my right hon. Friend good news on that today, but I am sure that his point will be noted. We all care about post offices because they are critical to hundreds and thousands of small businesses and the many millions of customers who use them daily for the diverse range of services on offer in the branches. I agree that local people of all ages and backgrounds regularly use post offices for mail and access to finance. The Post Office is living through a period of technological change and it is vital in a world of new technology, and to a positive and sustainable future, that it can provide those services while allowing post offices to remain a hub for local communities.

I turn to the proposals for the Sutton Crown post office. The post office network is diverse and of the existing 11,800 branches only around 360—the Crown branches— are directly owned and operated by the Post Office. The rest are operated by independent business people—sub-postmasters—who play a key role. The 360 Crown branches represent only a small proportion of the total number of branches, but they are important to the network as a whole because they tend to be larger and to earn the greatest revenue. However, they also have the highest costs, and they have been responsible for a significant proportion of the Post Office’s losses in recent years. Bringing the Post Office into a sustainable long-term position involves trying to ensure that we get a grip on those losses.

Last year, the 360 Crown post offices lost a total of £37 million throughout the country. Those losses are not sustainable, which is why the Post Office is working hard to tackle them. Probably the best way of doing so is through increasing revenue, which is a mark of a rejuvenated post office network. In a similar vein, costs must be reduced, and that includes the Post Office working with its employees and stakeholders to introduce new technologies.

We are investing about £70 million in 300 branches to make them more attractive to customers and to identify savings in property costs. We are making a short-term investment to ensure that costs are brought under control and revenue is increased to ensure that the Crown post offices come into balance. Those activities will deliver considerable benefits, but expanding revenue alone is not enough, so the Post Office is exploring the possibility of franchising about 70 Crown post offices and merging around six Crown branches. That brings me to Sutton.

We must make the post office network sustainable for the long term. The Post Office is considering merging two branches in Sutton, which are less than half a mile apart. As my right hon. Friend said, the consultation is still open. The situation is unusual because normally there is only one Crown post office for any given area. Due to the Post Office’s franchising and merging activity and the imminent expiry of the lease on the High street Crown post office, it is reviewing the configuration of the Crown post offices in the area.

Merging the high street and Grove road branches will bring the benefit of more investment in the single Crown post office that will remain under the proposal that is out for consultation, so there would be advantages for customers as well as the obvious challenges that my right hon. Friend highlights. The merged branch will have considerable investment, and it will be refurbished and modernised with a brighter environment. It will have new technologies, an additional counter and a private consultation room. It will offer a wider range of services than are currently available at the high street branch, including an external cash machine and identity services, allowing customers to apply for passports and driving licences more easily.

The high street Crown post office costs around £2 to operate for every £1 of revenue that it brings in. The Grove road Crown post office costs £1.50 to operate for every £1 of revenue that it generates. I am sure my right hon. Friend will understand that those costs are not sustainable. If the two branches are merged, the Post office will not only make its business more efficient but will protect services for the long term and make the branch sustainable, which is vital for local communities, customers and small businesses.

I understand that the Post Office considered several options before proposing the merger and it was decided that the current proposal offers the maximum benefits, so it is out for consultation. My right hon. Friend asked about negotiations with the landlords of the high street premises. The Post Office has obviously approached the current landlords but has not been able to negotiate a renewal rent that is better value for money than the current proposal to retain Grove road. Those conversations have taken place, but I cannot say whether there is more to be done. Discussions have taken place, but were not concluded successfully. Under the plan, customers will continue to have access to Grove road’s large Crown post office, which will be improved, but the merger also plans to eliminate the losses incurred in the branches, making them more sustainable and the whole post office system in Sutton more financially viable for the long term.

Having said all that, no decision has been taken. As my right hon. Friend is aware, a consultation is out. I am encouraged by the open dialogue taking place between the Post Office and the council to see whether alternative options can be considered. All the issues, including the topography and customer convenience, will be taken into account in the consultation. I urge any interested parties to submit their views to the Post Office as part of the process and ensure that the community’s concerns and points are considered appropriately.

[Paul Burstow]

I want to ask the Minister about one other thing—he might not be able to help with it today, but perhaps through his officials he could come back to me. I am talking about the status of the Grove road post office and guarantees about its future, given that it is such a prime site for future development.

[Matthew Hancock]

I shall certainly get back to my right hon. Friend with the position on longer-term guarantees about Grove road, should that be the option that goes forward after consultation on the proposal. Discussions with the council will be exploring a range of options, including the council identifying potential alternatives for a post office close to the town centre, taking on board considerations about negotiations on the high street site and the location of the Grove road site. Discussions with the council about an alternative location are part of the ongoing consultation.

I urge the council to continue to work with the Post Office to try and address local concerns, while providing a sustainable, long-term financial future for post office services. I know that Post Office management remain open to discussing all those options with the council and trying to find a solution, in response to the consultation, that is best not only for the Post Office, but for the Post Office’s customers, who are a vital part of the Post Office, too.

To sum up, I fully appreciate the concerns of not only my right hon. Friend but his constituents about the proposed changes. I hope that I have been able to set out some of the thinking behind why the consultation has been proposed in this way and also given some assurances that the consultation is ongoing and that all options are being considered. The reasonable approach being taken by my right hon. Friend, the council and Post Office management is right. Everybody understands that the losses in the Crown network were unsustainable. Given that finance is available to put together an option that can be sustainable over the long term, it is important that the process is gone through, but I am glad that it is open and consultative. The consultation closes in early April, so anybody wanting to submit a view has just over a month to put their points to the Post Office. I will ensure, and can provide reassurance, that the Post Office is listening to all points and options that are put on the table.

In closing, I hope that my right hon. Friend recognises not only the understanding of the vital role that post offices play in communities, but that this genuine consultation is about trying to find the best, financially secure, long-term solution to having a post office in the middle of Sutton—whether through the proposal on the table now or through other options being considered with the council. Although some changes are likely, I hope that, in the longer term, they will bring benefits to his constituents and reassure them that they will have a sustainable post office network to serve them in the way we all know and understand is so vital to our local communities.

Oral Answers to Questions

Paul Burstow Excerpts

Monday 10th February 2014 Commons Chamber

Lords amendment 127 adds a new clause which consolidates and streamlines existing legislation for individuals with parental responsibility for a disabled child, under which they have the right to an assessment of their needs by a local authority.

[Paul Burstow]

On amendment 126 in respect of young carers as well as parent carers, may I thank the Minister very much for the way in which he has engaged with carers organisations, me and many other hon. Members? These issues first surfaced in the Joint Committee’s scrutiny of the Care Bill, and I thank the Minister for care and support, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), for the way he has engaged with these issues, too. Will the Minister here tonight now give some consideration to the following? Now that we have these two parts of the Bill and we complete the range of improvements for carers, can we make sure we have joint guidance from both Departments covering all carers?

[Mr Timpson]

May I first pay particular thanks to my right hon. Friend and also to the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis) for their dedicated work and interest on behalf of parent carers? That was clearly on display at the meeting I had with them both not too long ago. My right hon. Friend will see that my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for care is sitting alongside me, and we both heard that constructive and sensible suggestion, and we will both take it up and discuss it in more detail and see whether we can make some important cross-Government changes so that those who are looking at the guidance that is relevant to them find it easier to access and understand it, rather than trying to find information in a host of different places.

[Paul Burstow]

It is helpful to get these points clarified. I think my suggestion would be helpful, in particular because this welcome new provision for parent carers makes specific reference to the well-being principle in the Care Bill; and making sure that guidance is co-ordinated will ensure that there is no difference in application, regardless of whether someone is in a children’s service or an adult service.

[Mr Timpson]

My right hon. Friend makes a sensible and logical suggestion; we will go away and consider it and come back to him in due course.

Amendment 128 added a new clause enabling any young person who was in care immediately before their 18th birthday as an eligible child to continue to reside with their former foster carer once they turn 18. The local authority will be under a duty to support such arrangements, commonly known as “staying put” arrangements, until the young person reaches the age of 21. This is an issue on which many of us with a background in fostering and adoption and those involved with the all-party group on looked after children and care leavers from both sides of this House and in another place have worked for many years. I am delighted that we have been able to find the funding to do it, and I would like to thank the Earl of Listowel and my hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker) for their work on this area. I am very sad that the late and much missed Paul Goggins is not with us today to celebrate this important step forward for young people leaving care. As was typical of Paul, I suspect he would have shied away from taking any of the plaudits, a trait that set him apart and from which we could all learn. We owe him a huge debt.

In welcoming this new clause, Janet Rich of The Care Leavers’ Foundation said:

“Step by step this Government has demonstrated that it truly understands the difficulties which face care leavers as they set out on the journey towards adulthood. Today’s announcement is another positive step on the journey towards State-as-parent acknowledging the duty they owe to this uniquely vulnerable group of young adults”.

Oral Answers to Questions

Paul Burstow Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for drawing our attention to that exemplary campaign. I have campaigned against knife crime since before my time in the House. I worked with the widow of Philip Lawrence, who was the tragic victim of such a crime, in order to raise awareness of what could be done to tackle it in and outside schools. I also worked with two former Home Secretaries to ensure that combat knives were banned. I am delighted that head teachers in schools across the country are today using a variety of innovative methods and working with a variety of third sector groups to alert children to the dangers of carrying and using knives, but there is of course much more to be done and I look forward to working with the hon. Lady and other Members in that endeavour.

[Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

This is the first Government to use Government time and Government Bills to advance the cause and rights of carers. Having already taken the welcome step of ensuring that a whole-family approach is taken to young carers and the people they care for, will the Government consider what further steps they could take to extend that approach to parent carers of disabled children?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mr Edward Timpson)]

I know that my right hon. Friend worked hard on this issue in Government, and that he set up the carers strategy, which has done much to highlight this important area. We have made progress on young carers in the Children and Families Bill, and parent carers will benefit from the changes in our special educational needs reforms. I have met the Minister for Care and Support, the Minister of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), and looked at the existing legislative framework relating to parent carers. We are satisfied that there is no evidence that it needs to be changed or strengthened, but I would be happy to meet my right hon. Friend to discuss the matter further and to see what else we might be able to do to achieve the end that he seeks.

Children and Families Bill

Paul Burstow Excerpts

Tuesday 11th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alex Cunningham]

I rise to speak to new clause 17, in my name and those of other hon. Members, which would provide for a ban on smoking in private vehicles when children are present. It is a child protection issue.

I could devote much of my time to the strong influence of the tobacco lobby in this place and knocking down the idea that the new clause is my way of expanding the nanny state, but I will not. Instead, I shall address the simple decision that the new clause invites Members to make: do we act to protect children and ban smoking in cars, or do we leave them to suffer not just the discomfort but the tremendous health problems they will otherwise encounter? In Committee, there was considerable sympathy for the intention, with some reservation about the introduction of an education programme for offenders, but the new clause is much simpler: if a person smokes in a car when a child is present, they would face a £60 fine—no awareness course, no complications, no compromise.

The principle of such a ban has gained much support from fellow Members on both sides of the House. A majority of people understand that smoking is harmful to our health, particularly the health of children, and most would not expose children to smoke in a vehicle. In a survey of 10,000 adults carried out by Action on Smoking and Health that included more than 2,000 smokers, which asked about the car people travelled in most frequently, only 6% said that people should smoke whenever they liked. Some 71% said that smoking was not allowed full stop and 9% said that smoking was not allowed if there were non-smokers or children travelling. Despite that, however, research from the British Lung Foundation found that more than 51% of eight to 15-year-olds reported exposure to cigarette smoke when confined in a car in the UK.

Public opinion is firmly on the side of change. A survey by YouGov found that 85% of adults in north-east England, where my constituency is situated, said that they would support laws to ban smoking in cars carrying under-18s. One factor that sets children apart from other groups is that they are less likely to have a say on whether they are exposed to second-hand smoke in a vehicle in which they are travelling. Given that passive smoking is particularly harmful to children, we have a recipe for a public health time bomb. With their quicker respiration rates, smaller airways, less mature immune systems and greater absorption of pollutants, children are at an increased risk from passive smoking in an enclosed space. Passive smoking increases the risk of a number of health problems, ranging from wheezing and asthma to respiratory infections and bacterial meningitis, and doubles the risk of sudden infant death.

These attitudes are backed up by survey data from the British Lung Foundation that shows that many children are uncomfortable with adults smoking around them, but feel unable to influence smoking behaviours. Some 31% of children aged eight to 15 exposed to second-hand smoke in a car reported having asked the smoker to stop. Alarmingly, however, a greater share—34%—had refrained from asking because they were either too frightened or embarrassed. As Members of Parliament, it is our duty to act in the interests of the public we serve and represent, including children and young people, and it is high time that we heeded what our young people are telling us. In the interests of preserving public health, the only way to protect completely against second-hand smoke is to make homes and cars entirely smoke free. A good starting point would be to ban smoking in cars when children are present.

The Government’s response to this developing crisis, in the form of an informative educational campaign that has just been launched, is certainly welcome, but the message about the dangers of passive smoking must be spread even wider. We must stop this sort of behaviour, so this campaign is of course welcome. Private vehicles are considered private spaces—people argue that it is their private space—but it is the young person’s private space as well, so I hope that the House will support my proposal and that the Government will accept it. Opposing a ban on smoking in private vehicles when children are present assumes that the right to smoke trumps the right of the child to be free from harmful smoke. It does not. I have stressed in the past, and do so again, that this is not just a health issue, but an issue of child protection. I hope the Government will now accept it.

[Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

I want briefly to draw attention to new clause 5, which addresses the issue of young carers and the fact that the good intentions of the Government in the Care Bill to extend new rights to adult carers have inadvertently created a gap that leaves young carers in a position where they would be less well favoured than adult carers in the future.

As a result of the new clause, tabled by a cross-party group of Members, the Government can ensure that young carers are treated in a way that is fair and appropriate for them and are not placed in a position where they are undertaking inappropriate and burdensome caring responsibilities. I hope that the Government will be able to give us a good sign of intent to deliver on this agenda. They are doing a great job for adults in the Care Bill and, in carers week, we need to do the same for young carers.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—