Patricia Gibson
Main Page: Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party - North Ayrshire and Arran)Dormant Betting Accounts
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Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) on securing this important debate, and I declare an interest as somebody who spent seven years of her life working in high street betting shops.
The potential negative effects that gambling behaviour can have on those who develop an addiction is an issue that does, and should, cause great concern.
Julian Knight
I understand the concerns about problem gambling, and I think we all share those concerns. However, for a moment, we ought to consider the fact that the gaming industry creates thousands of jobs, and 70% of the population take part in some form of gambling during the year without any poor side effects. Gambling is not always a negative story.
Patricia Gibson
I take on board the point that the hon. Gentleman makes so well. He encourages me to jump forward to something that I was going to say later, which is that, although most people gamble responsibly, we have to recognise that in some cases gambling causes huge problems and distress not just to families but to communities. The proposal to use dormant betting accounts to help deal with the damage that gambling often causes for too many people has something of a beautiful synchronicity to it. I take nothing away from the fact that gambling, for most people, is an enjoyable pastime. One thing does not necessarily preclude the other. We can recognise the benefits and the negative consequences of gambling.
The problems caused by gambling should make us pause for thought from a public health and policy perspective. Indeed, the prevalence and ease of access to gambling should give us all cause for concern, even those of us who do not have a particular problem with gambling. Gambling behaviour is increasingly a subject of public health and policy interest, and there is widespread recognition that some people who engage in gambling activity can experience harm. I think we can all agree that the deregulation of gambling in 2005, allowing online gaming companies to advertise on UK media, gave rise to potentially worse problem gambling while, at the same time, offering greater leisure opportunities for those who enjoy gambling in a healthy spirit.
The online gambling industry is worth nearly £2 billion a year in the UK, which shows that it makes a significant contribution to our economy, but we must not let that blind us to the difficulties that it throws up and that we have to deal with. There is plainly a need for more education and support, and the matter of dormant betting accounts has already been visited in this place.
There are a number of reasons why dormant betting accounts arise. It might be that the account holder has died or has decided no longer to engage in gambling at all. Given the current competitiveness in the market, customers may regularly transfer their credit between betting accounts held with different companies, meaning that old accounts can easily be forgotten.
In the event that a betting account falls into a dormant state, betting companies will try to contact the customer to make them aware of it. However, companies will often use the dormant account as a way to coax customers back with promises of free bets. In the event that the customer does not reactivate their account, the money left in the dormant account reverts to the company’s profit line after a period of time through an accountancy procedure. For the information of the hon. Member for Chester on the definition of a dormant account—
Julian Knight
I think the hon. Lady meant me when she said the hon. Member for Chester.
Julian Knight
No, that is very perceptive as I was actually born in Chester.
Patricia Gibson
That must have been what I was thinking of. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for changing his constituency without consulting him.
For the information of the hon. Member for Solihull (Julian Knight), the definition of a dormant account may vary depending on who is asked. If we were to move the matter forward, that is an argument we could have. Would an account be dormant after, for example, 12 months or 18 months? There is a debate to be had about that. Today, that is beside the point because we are talking about the principle of dormant accounts, not ones that have simply been unattended for a few months.
Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)
Has the hon. Lady gathered any evidence as to exactly what steps the betting companies take to locate the person who holds the dormant account? It is often the case that people deposit from their credit or debit card, and can withdraw money at will. Betting companies hold people’s debit and credit card numbers. In the hon. Lady’s estimation, would it help if funds were just returned automatically after a certain amount of time, if that card is still live? Might that obviate some problems we are discussing?
Patricia Gibson
It might obviate some of the problems but, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, debit and credit cards also fall into disuse. I own credit cards that I have not used for months or years and that I probably could not use now. Cards get changed and personal identification numbers get updated, so I am not sure that that would be a permanent way forward. The problem is that, when betting companies make contact with people who have dormant accounts, it is very often a lever to encourage them to gamble more. I am not sure that that is helpful.
The way forward is to use the funds from accounts that have fallen dormant to do some good for those who have difficulties with gambling. To be quite honest, I cannot see what is controversial about that. Hon. Members might throw up all sorts of issues such as privacy and the intrusion of the state but, in the long term, we are talking about doing something for the greater good.
Julian Knight
The key point is whether the amount of money required to administer such a measure would swallow up virtually all the money that is brought back from the dormancy arrangement. There are no definable figures, so a good starting point would be to pressurise betting companies to find out exactly how much money is in dormant accounts. We would then know exactly what good that money could do.
Patricia Gibson
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point; he talked earlier about the voluntary participation of the betting industry. To establish the exact sums involved—which I believe are significant, although I could be wrong—we really need the betting industry on board. Companies are quite reluctant to go down this road, for reasons that I am sure they could explain well enough themselves. The proposal has some merit, but how much money are we talking about? Let us have that conversation. Why would anybody be afraid or reluctant to have that conversation? I leave that thought hanging in the air for the hon. Gentleman to mull over at his leisure.
I have no doubt that the sums held in dormant accounts may be surprisingly large. Why do I say that? For the National Lottery, which allows 180 days for people to claim their prize money, unclaimed winnings, although not the same as dormant accounts, amounted to 1.5% of sales in 2008-09. That is not a high proportion, but it amounted to £78.2 million, a sum that any charity or group of charities would be delighted to have. We are talking about significant sums of money that could do much to mitigate the harm, damage and distress that gambling addictions all too often cause. We are not talking about a hill of beans; we are talking about quite a windfall—pardon the pun—for gambling charities. In 2009-10, unclaimed pool betting dividends on UK horse races totalled £944,000. Again, such dividends are not the same as dormant accounts, but the figure indicates the kinds of forgotten sums that could be put to better use rather than sitting in some account or being used on somebody’s profit line.
Of course, as with any proposed change, we will have naysayers, not least in the gambling industry, telling us that it cannot be done. They will say, “This is the intrusion of the state. Where is people’s privacy? Where are people’s rights? We cannot ensure that the money will minimise gambling-related harm.” Why not? What is the obstacle here? I know the gambling industry is an obstacle, but surely policy cannot be made due to pressure from companies with a vested interest in the status quo. Whenever someone makes a proposal on any aspect of public life, there are always a hundred reasons to say no, but in this place surely we can look to the greater good and find enough reasons to say yes.
We are not starting from scratch. A way forward can be found by implementing the findings of previous reports, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde, in the form of a voluntary scheme for high street betting shops, while requiring online and remote gambling operators to have their accounts annually audited to identify accounts that have been unused for, say, 18 months—the amount of time is up for debate. As a starting point, the operators could then provide 75% of the money in those accounts for good causes. What could possibly be wrong with that? Using money left in dormant accounts to help fund organisations working to minimise gambling-related harm would have a beautiful synchronicity that I find quite compelling, and I can honestly see no downside. All that is required is political will.
Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)
Ronnie Cowan gets two minutes at the end to try to sum up the debate, which I am sure he is looking forward to. I am looking forward to the next speech from the hon. Member for Luton North. What a great day it is to see such a stalwart of the Back Benches propelled on to the Front Bench of Her Majesty’s Opposition.