Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Debate between Owen Smith and Baroness Morgan of Cotes

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

I am grateful to the Minister for that further intervention, just as I assume that he is grateful for the intervention of the civil servants in the Box, who must have passed him a note. Clearly, he was not aware of that earlier. When he said that CCGs must meet in public, he was under the impression that that was the case.

[Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Owen Smith]

No. I shall move on now. We have debated the topic long enough.

[Owen Smith]

Indeed. The key difference is that it is for the clinical commissioning groups, in establishing their constitution, to determine what the rationale will be for allowing the public in or not. That is not set down in statute or in direction from the Minister or the Secretary of State. It is for individual CCGs to determine when they should let the public in. I give way to my colleague on the Bill Committee.

[Nicky Morgan]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I remember discussing with him whether he was a lawyer, and he was proud to say that by background he was not a lawyer. As he knows, there will be occasions when a clinical commissioning group is considering a matter which is sub judice. It could be an employment law matter; it could be a confidential matter relating to a patient—for example, a mental health patient for whom there has been very sensitive care. There will be times when it is appropriate and in the public interest and that of relatives—[Interruption.] I am making the point to the hon. Gentleman, not to those on the Opposition Back Benches. There will be occasions when it is appropriate for the CCG not to meet in public, as I am sure he will concede as a matter of common sense.

[Owen Smith]

I will not dispute that there may be occasions when it will be appropriate for the CCG to meet in private, but that is not what the Minister said. My point was to do with the tone and the misrepresentation that has been systematically applied by those on the Government Benches. That is the difference.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

It will. I have no doubt that the very many lawyers in the other place will have a field day in addressing these issues—just as, we fear, lawyers the length and breadth of this land will have a field day, not only during the passage of the Bill but for many years to come. That is because so many things will be contested, not only relating to the issues we are debating but, far more importantly, in relation to competition, which we debated yesterday, where it is undoubtedly the case that decisions that have hitherto been made to provide services from within the family of the NHS will be challenged by carpetbaggers—profit seekers—from outwith the NHS. Under the future provisions, those issues will need to be tested in the courts. The Government have conceded that on several occasions, and I am sure that they would do so today if they were asked.

Finally on the issue of the Secretary of State, and once again to hammer home the point that this is not just Labour scaremongering and that lawyers will be involved at every step of the way, I draw Members’ attention to the independent legal opinion that was provided by Stephen Cragg QC. Paragraph 1 of the executive summary states:

“It is clear that the drafters of the Health and Social Care Bill intend that the functions of the Secretary of State in relation to the NHS in England are to be greatly curtailed.”

It goes on:

“Effectively, the duty to provide a national health service would be lost if the Bill becomes law. It would be replaced by a duty on an unknown number of commissioning consortia with only a duty to make or arrange provision for that section of the population for which it is responsible.”

It states that the Bill is

“fragmenting a service that currently has the advantage of national oversight and control, and which is politically accountable via the ballot box to the electorate.”

That was the view of an independent QC on reading the Bill. It is a view that I and the Opposition share. I suggest that Ministers read it very carefully and do not dismiss it, as they have done today, as an inaccurate reading of the Bill.

[Nicky Morgan]

Is that the independent legal advice given to the campaign organisation, 38 Degrees? If it is and if the hon. Gentleman has any influence over that group, can he persuade it to release and make public the instructions given to counsel, because any instructing solicitor who instructs counsel to give advice usually gives very clear guidelines on, or an indication of, what they want the advice to say?

[Owen Smith]

I am ever so grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention, because it is profoundly rich for anybody on the Government Benches to suggest that we should prevail upon an independent organisation to publish the instructions that it offered to an independent QC, when the Government will not even publish the independent advice that they have commissioned. They have refused to do so repeatedly. They will tell us that they do not agree with this independent opinion, but they absolutely will not publish their own. I suggest that she makes representations to those on her Front Bench, and I will do the same to 38 Degrees if I have a chance.

The independent legal advice goes on to say:

“Encouraged by the structure and clear intention of the Bill to give consortia autonomy from the Secretary of State,”—

which is, of course, in clause 4 of the new Bill—

“there is a real risk of an increase in the ‘postcode lottery’ nature of the delivery of some services, depending on the decisions made by consortia.”

That increase in the postcode lottery takes me on to the second set of proposals that I wish to touch on, which we believe would stop the Government effectively legislating to hardwire the postcode lottery into our NHS. We accept that it is already too variable across the country and that there needs to be greater equity and standardisation, with excellence provided to everybody across the country. That will become all the more difficult with the new provisions.

New clauses 10 and 11, which were tabled by the Labour Opposition, are designed to combat some of the possible malign consequences of the changes that hand to clinical commissioning groups the ability to determine the needs of the local health population and to set their priorities without interference or support from the Government, or indeed from regional strategic health authorities.