Care Bill [Lords]

Debate between Norman Lamb and Stephen Dorrell

Monday 10th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dorrell]

No, I do not believe that simply empowering the Care Quality Commission to go into that space is the answer to the question that I am posing. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) is closer to the right answer in identifying the health and wellbeing board at a local level as the beginnings of an organisation that can deliver a more joined-up commissioning process, joining up the social care system, the community health system, the primary health system and, of course, the hospital service—and I always add the social housing people. In a properly joined-up service, they would focus their attention on the needs of the individual patient service user—an awful piece of terminology; we cannot work out precisely what to call them.

I wish to highlight a bit of institutional tension. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam proposes that this is a function for the CQC, but I am not entirely convinced. A tension underlying several contributions this evening relates to whether the CQC is the regulator of a provider, or an organisation with responsibility for charting the course, which I am looking for from the Minister, towards a new form of commissioning. The CQC has a full job to do responding to some of the things that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West was talking about—culture and service quality on the provider side—and I am not persuaded that trying to manoeuvre it into the space of developing the kind of joined-up commissioning service I am describing is the right answer to that question.

[Norman Lamb]

I reassure my right hon. Friend that I want to chart the course with him. I completely agree on the need to bring commissioning together. The better care fund is a good nudge in the right direction, but we need to go much further in due course.

[Mr Dorrell]

I am grateful to the Minister for his encouragement that I am on the right path.

There is a serious question here. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam that, at a local level, the health and wellbeing board is the organisation best placed to move forward with the process of more joined-up commissioning. How we, as MPs, satisfy ourselves that this is happening to the required standard, with the required levels of economic efficiency across the system as a whole and above the level of the health and wellbeing board, is one of the questions left unanswered by the institutions we currently have. I am not entirely persuaded that the CQC should be encouraged into what I regard as a vacuum.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I am conscious that finances in local government are tight, but the better care fund, which I mentioned just now, has been widely welcomed. I was with a director of adult social care last Friday, who told me that his authority was planning to pool not just its share of the better care fund but the whole of its social care budget with the local health budget. That sort of radical, innovative thinking is exactly what we want and it will ensure that we protect services for vulnerable people.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the steps that the Government are taking to reform the funding of care for the elderly represent long overdue action to deal with an issue that has bedevilled this world for more than 20 years? Tony Blair promised the Labour conference in 1997 that he would deal with it, and he did precisely nothing about it.

[Norman Lamb]

I remember the quote from Tony Blair well—he did not want to live in a country where people have to sell their homes to pay for care. However, over 13 years of the last Labour Government nothing happened. There were lots of commitments—manifesto commitments and so on. However, I am proud of the fact that this coalition Government are implementing reform, and it is long overdue.

NHS Commissioning Board

Debate between Norman Lamb and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I sense that the right hon. Gentleman’s speech was written before he heard what I had to say. If he had listened to it, he would know that we recognise concerns about the drafting and whether it absolutely meets the commitments already made. We want to be certain that the commitments made in this place during the passage of the Bill are met. Indeed, when the Secretary of State wrote to clinical commissioning groups in 2012, he made it absolutely clear that those groups would not be forced to go out to tender. We will make sure that that is met. [Interruption.] If Opposition Members had simply listened to what I said, they would have avoided coming up with a set of questions that completely ignored my points.

The right hon. Gentleman referred to the question of quality of care. From my point of view, poor care should be condemned wherever it happens, and he needs to remember that the scandal of Mid Staffordshire hospital happened under his and his party’s watch. The poor quality of care uncovered in that NHS hospital is completely unacceptable—just as unacceptable as poor quality care from any private provider at all. Let us be clear about that.

There will be no privatisation of the NHS under this Government. Furthermore, there will be no special favours for the private sector, which were provided under the right hon. Gentleman’s Government. It was his Government who gave £250 million to private providers of independent sector treatment centres—whether or not they delivered care. There will be no special favours under this Government’s new rules. No clinical commissioning group will be forced into competitive tender. The rules will be absolutely clear, and we shall publish the amended regulations shortly.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the effect of his response to the urgent question this afternoon is to say that this Government are pursuing precisely the same policy as their predecessor on competition for the provision of NHS services? Does he further agree that that demonstrates that the cloud of rhetoric surrounding the passage of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 was so much hot air?

[Norman Lamb]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. There has been a lot of cant and hypocrisy in this debate. The guidance given by the previous Government to primary care trusts in 2010 makes absolutely clear their commitment to competition. That shows how crazy this debate has become. We will ensure that the debate is balanced and that the interest of the patient trumps everything else, as it should.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and Stephen Dorrell

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I should be happy to meet the hon. Lady and members of the association to discuss those concerns further.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

There is currently much talk about the importance of integrated services. Can my hon. Friend assure us that when commissioning primary care, the NHS Commissioning Board will emphasise the importance of integrating it with the other community health services supplied by the NHS, and that social care will be included in that fully integrated service?

[Norman Lamb]

I am happy to give my right hon. Friend an absolute assurance to that effect. The Department and I are working closely and collaboratively with both the Commissioning Board and the Local Government Association to ensure that we deliver integrated care, which is much the best way of keeping patients out of hospital and maintaining their condition.