Legal Highs

Debate between Norman Baker and Lord Walney

Tuesday 1st July 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) on securing this important debate. I recognise that hon. Members in all parts of the House feel genuine concerns about these matters and, in particular, we have all had constituents contacting us with their concerns about what has happened to their families, so the hon. Gentleman is right to bring the debate before the House.

I agree with hon. Members who have expressed concern about the term “legal highs”. That is not an abstract matter; it is quite important, because, as hon. Members have said, using the word “legal” implies safety, and that is a misconception. Therefore, I am keen to get away from the term “legal highs”, and I try not to use it myself, except to disparage it. I am particularly attracted to “chemical highs”, which I have been peddling recently, but there are other options, such as “untested highs” or “danger highs”. We need to find an alternative phrase that conveys accurately the fact that these substances are not tested and not approved, and are probably not safe. I want to get some consensus on that, although the newspapers are attracted to the phrase “legal highs” and it is difficult to move them.

This is a global problem and no country has solved it—it is important to say that. The review process, which is under way, considered experiences in other countries to find out what works and what does not work, and why it was right to do those things. It is not fair to characterise the Government as not having done much on this matter. We have been pretty active on it, but I stress that there is no obvious silver bullet that cures all the problems that hon. Members have correctly identified.

We recognised the emergence of new psychoactive substances and the trade as serious threats from the beginning and have taken multiple and decisive actions to address them. We consulted the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs to inform the action plan published in 2012 to tackle the trade from all angles. We have improved the UK’s drugs early warning system to enable real-time information sharing on emerging drugs between health and law enforcement, the advisory committee and the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction. We also created the Home Office forensic early warning system to detect and monitor the emergence of those substances in the UK, inform our response in legislation and provide support to the advisory committee and UK law enforcement. We have introduced temporary drug control legislation so that, together with the advisory council, we have been able to take swift action to protect the public from emerging new substances that we know have the potential to cause serious harm.

As one colleague said today, we are in a race against the chemist. The reality is, as in the rest of the world, we are chasing behind what appears on our streets, almost on a weekly basis, from chemical laboratories that are outside our jurisdiction and outside our control. We have tried to be swift in identifying substances as having appeared. More than 350 new psychoactive substances and their derivatives are now banned in the UK, mainly through our use of generic definitions banning entire families of drugs and related compounds under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. Bizarrely, we have even banned substances that do not exist, because we have anticipated where the chemist will go next.

As a result, the majority—about 80%—of new psychoactive substances seen in the EU for the first time are already controlled drugs in the UK. Working with UK law enforcement, including trading standards, to support the use of existing powers to disrupt supply in our communities and online, we have seen some successes. For example, a week of concerted action last November resulted in 44 arrests and, I think, 73 seizures, including large amounts of those substances.

We have issued guidance to local authorities on the use of existing powers. I will not pretend that those powers are comprehensive and that everything that is available is all that we need, but there are powers that have been used successfully by local authorities. The General Product Safety Regulations 2005, which should not be underestimated, have been successfully deployed in Northern Ireland. There is also trading standards legislation in relation to misdescriptions. If somebody markets something as bath salts or plant food, that is a misdescription and trading standards can take action on that basis. That might be more difficult if something is called “research chemicals”, but if it is wilfully misdescribed action can be taken.

[John Woodcock]

Is the Minister still actively considering our suggestion to allow the police and trading standards officers to confiscate first and then have the legal process? If he is not, will he explain why that is not a good route to go down?

[Norman Baker]

I will come to the steps that are being taken, but I want to stress at this point, since the hon. Gentleman has raised it, that a process is in place. We have appointed an expert panel based on the best brains in the country from various disciplines: law enforcement, those who have knowledge of drugs, those from the health regimes, those who understand the psychiatry of those who might use drugs and so on. The panel has been charged by me with finding the best way forward to minimise harms from those substances. That is its objective. It is therefore not for me to second-guess what the panel will come up with. The clear objective is to minimise harm, and I look to the panel for recommendations. I will come to the process in a moment. It would be wrong for me to rule anything in or out until the panel has had an opportunity to reflect and take professional advice as it is doing so. No doubt the hon. Gentleman’s points will be considered by the panel, along with everything else.

[Norman Baker]

Time is pressing. I have been in post since October or thereabouts. The review panel was appointed in December and has almost concluded its work. I expect to have its final report on my desk in a couple of weeks’ time. The Government will reflect on the conclusions and we will publish our intentions shortly thereafter. That is our intention. I want to get a move on. There is no intention to delay matters. However, there is also no wish to end up with bad legislation that is rushed and might have unforeseen consequences. I stress that no country in the world has cracked the issue successfully. We have to look across the world at different practices to see what might apply best to our own situation.

[John Woodcock]

Will the Minister give way?

[Anne Marie Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

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[Norman Baker]

As I said, the expert panel is looking at a range of matters, including descriptions and how substances are promoted and sold. If they are wilfully misdescribed—if the label states “bath salts” and the substance is not bath salts—action can be taken. If the label states, “Not fit for human consumption”, that is no doubt accurate and therefore more difficult. I assure my hon. Friend that that is not the only way into the issue.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) referred in complimentary terms to the action of festival organisers. I want to say for the record that I wrote to festival organisers to ask them to take that action, so if he was implying that the Government was not taking action that would not be accurate. The festival organisers responded positively to the efforts that we made in writing to them. Indeed, my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), wrote last year—successfully—and they took action as a consequence of his letter. We are taking action where we can on those important fronts.

Border Force has enhanced its capability to detect those substances—the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness made a point about ports—coming into the country with the introduction of new portable FirstDefender devices.

I absolutely take the point made by Members about prevention and education. I have given a strong steer to the expert panel that it should consider very carefully what can be done on education and prevention. I look forward to the panel’s recommendations on that particular front. Even so, in the meantime, our prevention message, especially to young people, that the products cannot be assumed to be safe has been consistent and clear. Our FRANK website messaging continues to be updated with information on the risks, consequences and harms of those substances, using the best and latest available information and advice.

We have researched user trends to inform further work on reducing demand, including online. In summer 2013, the Home Office ran targeted communications activity over the festival period to help to prevent the use of those substances and to raise awareness of their risks and harms. That was aimed at particularly 15 to 18-year-olds. With the media involved, we think that more than half of that age group got the message that we sent out last year.

There were 74,000-plus unique visitors to the campaign page on our website, and we saw an 84% increase in website traffic as a consequence. A survey of visitors to the website showed that our social marketing campaign has been effective in shifting attitudes and that a new campaign could achieve similar results, so we are planning to run similar activity again this summer.

We have worked with the Department for Education and UK law enforcement on guidance issued to schools so that drug education includes those substances, along with other harmful drug use, but I want to see what more we can do on that front.

[John Woodcock]

I thank the Minister for giving way a second time. To go back to the review, when he says nothing is ruled in or out and that he is looking abroad, does that mean he has not ruled out the option of licensing head shops, which I asked him about in my speech?

[Norman Baker]

I want to make it plain that I am not taking the decision to rule things in or out. I have given the panel a challenge to come up with what it believes to be the best way to minimise harms. It would be an odd remit if we started telling the panel in advance what it should conclude. It has looked at the various options; none is without problems. I think the hon. Gentleman refers to the New Zealand position, where having a regulated market has caused problems. There are problems in the US with the analogue system, which is potentially becoming a lawyers’ paradise, and there are problems in Ireland, where the trade has largely gone underground.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Baker and Lord Walney

Monday 27th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I will happily look into that, and I share my hon. Friend’s view that that is entirely inappropriate marketing.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

When does the Minister expect the review to be concluded, and will he consider giving police officers and trading standards officers more powers so that they can put an immediate stop on a new substance and put the onus on nefarious traders to prove that it is a hair product, plant food or whatever nonsense they call it?

[Norman Baker]

We have a quick response already—faster than nearly every other country in the European Union—but I agree that we need to look further at that. The review is under way, as I mentioned, and will be concluded in the summer, coterminously with the international comparator study that my predecessor started, so we will also be able to examine how other countries are dealing with the challenge of new psychoactive substances.

Psychoactive Substances

Debate between Norman Baker and Lord Walney

Monday 11th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that information. Of course, his knowledge of European matters is second to none in this House—[Interruption.] I did not say whether or not I approved of it.

The proposed regulation has features that might be appropriate if harmonisation of a legitimate internal market was genuinely required, but when applied to the control of these substances by member states, the proposal greatly exceeds any action required at EU level and thus does not comply with the principle of subsidiarity. For those few psychoactive substances that have legitimate uses, which amount to fewer than 2% of the more than 300 substances identified by the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction since 2005, our framework is already flexible enough to place controls on those substances to restrict recreational use without hindering genuine use in industry.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister believe that the European Commission’s impact assessment is mistaken? It states that member states would be able to apply national measures before the introduction of any EU-level measures and go further than what is foreseen by EU measures. It suggests that the UK would not be fettered. He clearly disagrees. Why?

[Norman Baker]

I do not think that is correct. Certainly, with regard to those substances classified as severe, with the top rank of measures, we would not be able to countermand the EU description applied to the substance unless the European Commission agreed to do so on application from the member state, so I do not think that is correct.

Network Rail

Debate between Norman Baker and Lord Walney

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Westminster Hall

[John Woodcock]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He is right to say that we need to look across the board at all options for improving efficiency. Avoiding inefficient procurement decisions, without returning to the days of the railway system that existed before the botched changes were made, which was not in itself operating efficiently, is the challenge and would be the challenge for any Government seeking to produce real, lasting and effective reform.

The deficit of accountability and transparency has rightly dominated speeches today. They have been powerful and well directed, but before I say more about where we share concerns in that respect, it is important to stress how far we have come since the days of Hatfield. Network Rail’s unusual structure was forged in response to the failure of its predecessor, Railtrack. The Labour Government were right to take action to bring the management of our rail infrastructure back under control, but the simple fact that we are in a relatively better place today does not mean that we can or should ignore the problems and shortcomings that beset the organisation a decade on.

The unusual nature of Network Rail has created a deficit of accountability. It does not have shareholders and does not respond directly to elected politicians, as has been demonstrated today. Most importantly, it is not properly responsive to the passengers who use the railway system. That can leave it unable properly to serve businesses, passengers and communities alike, and allow inefficient practices to continue. It has given rise to the alarming allegations that hon. Members have aired today and on which I hope the Minister will comment in his winding-up speech. [Interruption.] He still has 20 minutes.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) has to speak again.

[John Woodcock]

I will be brief. We want a railway that provides value for money for and is accountable to the taxpayer and the travelling public, a railway where passengers and freight customers can rely on the timetables and a railway that can plan strategically for the long term. That is why we are listening, as part of our policy review, to a wide range of ideas for improving the accountability of Network Rail, such as the Co-operative party’s proposals for mutualisation of the company. I therefore hope that the Minister will tell us where his plans to review the ownership and accountability structures of Network Rail to make it better able to serve the public have got to and whether they will include improvements to transparency.

Finally, I come to the issue of bonuses. Network Rail’s accountability has been brought into focus today by the news that Network Rail’s senior management will next week seek to award themselves a new bonus and incentive scheme. We understand that that will include an annual bonus of 60% of salary and, in addition, a five-year reward scheme worth up to 500% of salary. The public will be staggered by such proposals. Network Rail is currently in breach of its licence. It must recognise that times have changed and that bonuses on top of salaries need to be for exceptional performance and not the rule.

There is a responsibility for Ministers here, too. Network Rail’s articles of association make it plain that the Secretary of State has a clear remit over pay and bonuses. She has a right to attend the remuneration committee and the board meeting that decides these schemes, or to appoint a special member to represent her. Despite the coalition’s pledge to make Network Rail more accountable, the Secretary of State has failed to take up that right. She still has the opportunity to do so. The Minister will be keen to know that Downing street seems to take a relaxed view on this matter judging by the lobby briefing this afternoon. The Prime Minister’s official spokesman agreed that there was a vote, but said that the decision rested with the Secretary of State. In his winding up, will the Minister say if his boss or he will attend the board meeting on 10 February to make it clear that such a package is unacceptable? Warm words about accountability are not enough—

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[Norman Baker]

The fact that efficiency savings or reductions in numbers take place does not necessarily mean that safety is affected. Obviously, the hon. Gentleman’s point has been well made, and I will take it back with me. Network Rail today is a significantly improved body from what it was in February 2007. None the less, we share the Office of Rail Regulation’s concerns about certain aspects of the company’s recent performance, such as punctuality over the past 12 months, some weaknesses in safety culture and poor implementation of integrated train planning under certain conditions.

The Government look to the Office of Rail Regulation to hold Network Rail to account and to continue to drive improved value for money from the company. As part of that process, the ORR has set Network Rail a requirement to make efficiency savings of 21% in its 2009 baseline by 2014. It will continue to produce annual reports benchmarking Network Rail’s efficiency against its international peers.

The Office of Rail Regulation’s latest annual report states that Network Rail has made progress against its efficiency targets, but that it has more work to do to justify all of its claimed savings. When Network Rail delivers on its current commitments, the ORR expects it to have closed around two-thirds of this efficiency gap by 2014 and the rest by 2019.

A key part of the McNulty review is to see much closer working and alignment of incentives between Network Rail and the train operators. A number of Members raised that, and it is something that the Government are focused on and it will feature in the Command Paper.

We welcome Network Rail’s regional devolution initiative to focus its business down to the route level and to work closely with train operators. David Higgins is taking forward work on structural reform to form closer alliances with the train operators. Moves towards asset management concessions and improved supplier engagement are vital.

We recognise concerns that Network Rail’s governance has not, so far, provided adequate mechanisms for holding the company’s board to account. That has been particularly apparent in respect of bonuses. The Secretary of State for Transport has been rightly firm on that matter, as indeed has No.10, despite what we have heard this afternoon. We expect bonuses to be dealt with in a responsible and a sensible manner by Network Rail, as we do by others. However, the Government’s powers, which we inherited from the previous Administration, to deal with those bonuses are extremely limited. Let me remind the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) that in 2009-10, under the previous Government, Iain Coucher received a bonus of £348,184, and the top seven directors together clocked up £1,347,000.

[John Woodcock]

The Minister will be aware that the previous chief executive waived his bonus in the 2008-09 period when he was asked to do so by the then Secretary of State, Lord Adonis. When the former Secretary of State for Transport, the now Secretary of State for Defence, raised the issue of those bonuses to Iain Coucher, he was completely ignored.

[Norman Baker]

The fact of the matter is that we have not inherited powers to deal with those bonuses. This is the Network Rail structure that we inherited, and we are now trying to sort it out.

Let me deal with Network Rail’s performance, which comes within my portfolio. It is not as good as it should have been, and passengers are rightly unhappy when their train is delayed or cancelled, especially when that happens regularly. To be fair to Network Rail, we must put that performance in context. In 1997-98, the annual public performance measure was 89.3%. After the accident at Hatfield in 2000, it fell to 74.2%. Since then, it has risen progressively, and punctuality today stands at 91.7%. I am not saying that that is good enough, but it is not the catastrophic case that is sometimes presented. It is certainly not true that, as the Labour party spokesman said, performance has been declining at an alarming rate. It has not; it has been improving. It has not met the targets, but it has been on an upward trend.

The current high level output specification for the railways specifies a further improvement to 92.6% during the period to 2014, and that is what the Department is focused on, as is the ORR. There is still a lot to do. I am concerned that performance over the last year has been iffy for various reasons, including the previous two exceptionally severe winters and an increase in the number of external events, such as cable theft. What is happening about cable theft is not the full range of the Government’s response, and it is inaccurate to present it in that way. We are simply using existing legislation to do what we can. Further measures will emerge as and when we can take them. In addition to cable theft, other issues have affected Network Rail’s performance that I am told were within its control.

Remedial plans have been put in place to enable improvements by the end of the current year, and plans are being developed for the remaining two years of the current rail control period. I am happy to tell my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans that a great deal of work has gone into much better winter resilience, including third-rail heating to prevent the sort of problems that occurred in previous winters, to which she rightly referred. I hope that she will be reassured by the fact that I meet Network Rail and the train companies monthly to examine performance with a specific analysis to ensure that they are keeping up to scratch with their plans.

As has been said, the ORR has published enforcement orders requiring Network Rail to take further steps to improve performance, particularly for long-distance passenger services and freight services. Hon. Members will know of the letter written by the ORR to Network Rail—it is fair to say that the train companies also have responsibility to do their best to ensure that punctuality and performance are maintained—and I simultaneously wrote to the train companies about their responsibilities to ensure that they are doing what they can to maintain performance at their end.

My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans referred to the National Audit Office. Network Rail is officially a private sector company. That classification is determined not by the Government, but by the independent Office for National Statistics, and that is what it has decided. I am not aware of any precedent for the National Audit Office having jurisdiction over private sector companies.

Under the terms of the Railways Act 1993, as subsequently amended, Network Rail is subject to scrutiny and regulation by the ORR, which has access to information that it needs from Network Rail, properly to assess the company’s performance and efficiency. The ORR is part of the public sector, so it is subject to National Audit Office scrutiny. The National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee have recently undertaken audits of the Office of Rail Regulation, taken evidence from Network Rail and others and produced reports on the regulator’s effectiveness.

We note and endorse the conclusions that the ORR must take steps to ensure that it has the capability that it needs properly to hold Network Rail to account and to drive it to close the efficiency gap with leading European comparators. I have sought assurances from the ORR that it will take such steps. Hon. Members have referred to the consultation that is taking place on the ORR’s powers. Any plans to expand the ORR’s role take account of its performance to date and its future capability, as well as comments that are received as part of the consultation process.

As a private sector company, Network Rail is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act, nor could it be without primary legislation. However, Network Rail has promised that it is in the process of developing a voluntary information rights code, which will mirror many of the provisions in the Freedom of Information Act. We welcome that initiative and believe that, if properly implemented, it will provide an alternative to legislation. We expect the company to introduce the code alongside a broader package of Government reforms later this year.

My colleagues and I in the Department for Transport, including the Minister of State, Department for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers)—I am grateful for the comments about her accident, and I am happy to say that she is recovering well—will keep the matter under close scrutiny.

Hon. Members raised a number of specific points, but I must give my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans time to respond properly. If there are any points that I have not dealt with, I will write to the relevant hon. Members.

Bus Services

Debate between Norman Baker and Lord Walney

Thursday 1st December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Norman Baker]

The hon. Lady will appreciate that I am not responsible for how the Department for Communities and Local Government has distributed its money, and I cannot comment on that in detail. What I would say, having looked at bus patterns across the country, is that it is not the case that southern counties have maintained their bus services while northern ones have not. The picture is much more mixed. The east riding of Yorkshire, for example, has done well on maintaining bus services. A north-south split is not reflected in the way she suggests.

[John Woodcock]

What the Minister has said is potentially important and will be listened to by councils throughout the country. Is he actually saying that if any council cuts bus services, it is the council’s fault and not a result of the drastic reductions in local funding imposed on councils by the Government?

[Norman Baker]

What I am saying—I hope that I have said it fairly—is that it is a challenging position for local authorities. They have received reductions in funding, which has meant difficult decisions for them, and I can understand why some of them have looked to their bus services. However, within the framework in which they operate, some have managed to protect their services, and, as in the case of Bedford, even enhance them. Others have made limited cuts. Others have taken an axe to services. Those who live in Hartlepool and elsewhere need to ask their councils why they have taken an axe to services when other councils have not.

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[Norman Baker]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for rightly putting that point on record.

Several Members raised the importance of consultation. I welcome the Transport Committee’s emphasis on it, and it is right that Members have mentioned it here. It is also right that councils and operators considering changing services consult properly. It is clear from the evidence that the Committee and I have seen that there are some good examples and some pretty ropey ones. The message that I want to give to bus companies and local councils is that they must consult properly and take into account the consequences of any changes that they propose. Actually, if they consult properly, they often get some good and constructive responses and end up with a solution that is better than the one proposed, not just for customers but for the company.

The Chair of the Transport Committee asked when I expect we will know what the Association of Transport Coordinating Officers is doing with its assessment. I mentioned the annual statistics, but the ATCO assessment is happening now, and we expect the results early in the new year. There is no reason why the Department should not share that with the Committee as and when it comes to us, so I will ask my officials to ensure that we are in touch with the Chairman then.

The toolkit has been mentioned by a number of Members. Passenger Focus is gathering evidence from local authorities and bus operators to find examples of good practice. It is receiving good support from the authorities it has contacted and we expect to see a first draft in January, so we and Passenger Focus are making good, swift progress, which is rightly important to Members present.

The only other points that I want to pick up on are two of the issues to which the Chairman of the Committee referred—namely the bus service operator grant and the concessionary fares reimbursement formula. Contrary to the information that has just been provided by the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness, it is a fact that the Confederation of Passenger Transport UK, to which I spoke immediately after the spending review, told me that, in general terms, it felt that the BSOG reduction, given the notice that we had given and the limited amount of reduction, was one that it could in general absorb without fares rising or services being cut. That is what the industry told me. I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman the exact quote if he wants. That is what it said.

[John Woodcock]

I am aware of the quote, but does the Minister accept that, while it is one thing to look at that in isolation, the situation is entirely different if we combine it with the two other substantial cuts faced by the industry, and that it is simply unrealistic to expect things to remain the same?

[Norman Baker]

There is an issue as to the extent to which other elements of what is happening in the wider market, including the price of fuel, what is happening in the world market, the eurozone or any other factors outside our control, affect the operation of bus services. The hon. Gentleman has referred specifically to the BSOG reduction and the industry has given me a specific response. That is what it said and we should stick with it.

On the concessionary fare reimbursement formula, we have not changed, in any shape or form, the legislation that we inherited from the previous Government. It requires councils and transport authorities to deal with operators in a way that reimburses them so that they are no worse off and no better off from handling concessionary fares. That is a legal requirement and it has not changed. All we have done is issue guidance to indicate to local authorities how they should perhaps discharge that function. They are under no obligation to follow that guidance if they do not wish to do so. The remedy for bus companies that are unhappy with that is to go to an independent appeal. Not very many of them have done so and not many appeals have been won. If bus companies are receiving less money from local authorities and are not seeking to appeal, or do not win appeals, that suggests that they were overpaid previously, contrary to the terms of the legislation. That is a simple analysis of the situation. If, on the other hand, they win their appeal, it shows that local authorities have not been sufficiently reimbursing them on a no better, no worse-off basis. The legislation has not changed at all. I think that, to some extent, the argument is something of a diversion.

I am very conscious of the importance of buses in our country. I do not underestimate the difficulties of local councils in particular, and I am concerned about the level of supported services in some parts of the country, as opposed to the commercial services, which I think are, by and large, all right. We need to see the picture across the country. One effect of localism is that some councils are handling this very well while others are handling it very badly. It is not for us to say that a local council must follow a particular procedure, but I think it is the right of people in those areas to ask why there are no buses in their council area while they are running very well indeed across the border. That is a legitimate function for local people to practise.

We have supplied a lot of help to the bus industry in the way I have described—through the green bus fund, the local sustainable transport fund and the money that the Chancellor has given this week—and I hope to make further helpful announcements in the not too distant future.

Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)

Debate between Norman Baker and Lord Walney

Thursday 1st December 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

A huge range of questions were asked in the debate, and I will do my best to get through them. I thank the Select Committee on Transport for initiating the study and for producing a helpful and balanced report—indeed, its Chair, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), made a helpful and balanced contribution today. The Committee is doing its job and the Government have found its comments useful in focusing our attention on the important issues.

As the hon. Lady and the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), said, last winter was extraordinarily cold. The hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that the temperature reached its lowest for 17 years; it was indeed exceptional. I am grateful that he did not seek to blame the Government for the weather—he almost did, but not quite. [Interruption.] If he wants to, that is fine. We were collectively—not just the Government, but local authorities and transport providers—better prepared in 2010 than in 2009, which also saw serious weather. I think that we are better prepared in 2011 than we were in 2010.

The availability of salt stocks has been mentioned. The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness said his leader sent him down a salt mine; my leader has not sent me down one yet, but perhaps that will come if I do not perform well this afternoon. I am happy to say that salt stocks are healthy: in October there were 2,755,000 tonnes of salt stocks, which compares favourably with—indeed, it is considerably more than—what we had last year. There were no problems with salt stocks either this year or last year. Had we had a Siberian winter, no doubt we might have had a problem, but even with an exceptional winter the salt stocks were perfectly adequate. We now have more stocks than last year, and having undertaken a survey of all local authorities, and all councils bar two have responded, we are confident about the figures we quote. In addition, we have published guidance on salt spread rates, which is available on the UK Roads Liaison Group website and through the Highways Agency. We are well prepared this year.

The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside asked whether all the Quarmby recommendations had been implemented in full. She will know that some of them were not for the Department for Transport, so I cannot definitively say whether all the local authorities have implemented all the measures identified for them. However, all the recommendations that relate to the Department for Transport have either been completely implemented, or have made significant progress toward implementation. If the hon. Lady wants to pursue a particular point, I shall be happy subsequently to provide her with information in recommendation-by-recommendation form; that is perfectly possible.

The hon. Lady asked whether we would have an independent review this winter. I hope that that will not be necessary. We are better prepared—I shall explain why I think so in a moment—and so are transport providers. If something were to go awry we would want to examine what happened—as would the Committee, I am sure—but I hope that will not happen.

The hon. Lady and my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich South (Simon Wright) highlighted the importance of preparations by the Met Office and the capacity to identify future weather patterns—at least beyond a few days. I believe that last winter the Met Office forecasts broadly reflected what occurred, which was useful, but it remains the case that severity can vary over relatively small distances, so an element of operational judgment on how reliable the information is will always be required by transport providers and, indeed—to pick up the point made by the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling)—by those who make their own judgments about whether to venture out. Weather in this country can change markedly within five or 10 miles, so it is difficult to get even local radio forecasts very accurate. Incidentally, I am not responsible for BBC local radio cuts, and nor are the Government: it is a matter for the BBC what it does. I simply hope that the BBC can protect local radio, which is a valuable service and information source for the country.

The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside and my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich South both rightly asked about a potential £10 million investment in supercomputing capability for weather forecasting. We are considering that suggestion sympathetically. There is a need to understand the benefits of more detailed forecasting and its role alongside other measures designed to increase the resilience of transport infrastructure to disruption from extreme winter weather. We are working with economic and scientific colleagues across Government to review the evidence about winter weather patterns and to test whether current levels of investment in winter resilience are being optimised. The Met Office raised the idea of supercomputing capability. Perhaps the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside, as Committee Chair, knows that the previous Transport Secretary commissioned a review by the chief economist and chief scientist at the Department for Transport to establish whether there was a case for greater investment in measures to improve winter resilience. That review is also formally assessing the business case, and, if it is viable, the potential funding options for such an investment. The present Secretary of State has the report on her desk and will publish it shortly.

The response of aviation was rightly raised. It is undoubtedly true that there were significant problems at Heathrow last year, to which hon. Members rightly drew attention. The Committee referred to the criticism that major airports were under-investing in winter resilience equipment, and thought that that was borne out. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside also mentioned the David Begg report in her opening remarks and the useful work that he has done. As she knows, we broadly agree with the thrust of the Committee’s observation on the level of airports’ investment in winter resilience. However, Heathrow and Gatwick have taken on board the need to do rather better than last year. They have put in place revised arrangements and made new investment to reduce the risk of disruption as a result of future severe winter events.

I can confirm that both airports have made significant investment in additional snow and ice clearance capacity and that Heathrow has committed more than £30 million to date, including on tripling its snow and ice clearance vehicle fleet and quadrupling staff numbers available for snow clearance. Gatwick has invested £8 million in further snow and ice clearance equipment, including the acquisition of snow clearance vehicles from Switzerland and the subsequent acquisition of 30 additional vehicles. Both airports have revised their operational command and control procedures to improve their response to severe weather.

At Heathrow airport, operators and others who use the airport have agreed capacity contingency plans that are enforceable through the airport’s local rules. Those plans will be initiated during periods of temporarily reduced capacity to deliver an effective schedule for passengers. Heathrow has tripled the number of vehicles available for snow clearance compared with December 2010—there are now 185 vehicles at the airport. It has increased the number of staff available for snow clearance from 117 to 468 per shift and it has a new reservist role, so that 950 non-operational staff can be deployed. It has agreed with industry on a new process for managing the necessary flight cancellations during disruption, which was mentioned, so that passengers have more timely and accurate information about whether their flight is operating. I entirely agree that it is important to do that given what happened last year at the airport. In answer to the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness, yes, I am confident that Heathrow and Gatwick are much better prepared this year than they were last year. There was, indeed, an ambiguity about whether Heathrow was closed. That was not helpful and I am hopeful—confident, even—that that will not occur this year.

The issue of emergency timetables was also mentioned in relation to Heathrow. As the hon. Lady rightly said, the former Secretary of State for Transport raised that possibility, and it is worth considering the matter. In principle, the Committee said that it can see the benefits to passengers of imposing an emergency timetable at busy airports. The Civil Aviation Authority will continue its work on improving airports’ resilience, including by monitoring the progress made by airports to improve their performance through the implementation of agreed capacity reduction plans in relation to an emergency timetable where appropriate. The operators and others at Heathrow airport unanimously agreed to capacity contingency plans being enforceable through the airport local rules. They will be introducing such plans if necessary as a result of the requirements that the winter imposes on them.

The Chair of the Select Committee referred to future plans for the CAA. Let me just find the relevant note on that. The hon. Lady was concerned about the draft Civil Aviation Bill and the plans for passenger representation. As I have already mentioned, the Civil Aviation Authority will continue to monitor the progress made by airports to improve their performance. There will be enforcement through the CAA through licensed conditions to facilitate greater airport resilience and a better passenger experience during any disruption. The CAA is taking an active interest in that matter, as I think the hon. Lady recognises.

There has also been an attempt to ensure better surface access to airports during disruption, which the hon. Lady mentioned. I can assure her that the Department for Transport will be monitoring future events, including access to airports, to ensure that there is co-ordination between modes of transport. That was recommendation 14 of the Committee’s report. We are engaging and have engaged with transport operators already to ensure that contingency plans are in place to deal with any events this year. However, although we and the operators can make the best plans possible, we are dependent on the weather. We cannot prepare for every single eventuality; we can simply do our best under the circumstances and ensure that we respond as best we can.

The information provided to passengers was raised by a couple of hon. Members. It is certainly true that the information on airlines and trains provided to passengers was not at its best. Some train companies are better than others, but we are concerned that accurate information needs to be provided on a timely basis, including on whether or not to travel. That needs to be clear. The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness asked what discussions I have had on either winter preparedness or passenger information during disruption. I have had extensive discussions with the train companies and with Network Rail. I have met them regularly on a monthly basis. During those meetings, we have considered passenger information during disruption and winter preparedness to try to ensure that, first, the trains are able to run—I will come on to the infrastructure points in a moment—and, secondly, that when something does occur, passengers are properly informed about what is happening and what action they should take.

That includes, as I mentioned in a debate yesterday or the day before, ensuring that when a train is stranded, appropriate steps are taken to ensure that passengers can get to a station as soon as possible, rather than potentially being stranded for a long time on a train. However, it is not appropriate to micro-manage train companies and for Department for Transport officials to count how many blankets are on trains. We have a responsibility to indicate to train companies that they should be prepared, but it is for them to take that forward on their own basis and to ensure they are properly prepared. Ultimately, the buck stops with them. We do not own the train companies, but we have a right to say to them that they should be prepared, and we have done that. However, it is up to them to ensure that they take that forward in their own way and they will be held accountable for any shortcomings that occur as a consequence.

Two or three hon. Members raised the matter of pavements. I entirely agree about the lack of attention that some local authorities have sometimes given to pavements. It is wrong simply to assume that people in vehicles are the only ones who matter. Many people have to get from A to B on foot and they deserve proper consideration, too. On a purely practical basis, there is no point keeping a bus route clear if the whole pavement around the bus stop is a sheet of ice, which I saw in my town of Lewes last winter. There needs to be some joined-up thinking. There also needs to be some thinking from local authorities to identify important passenger routes, such as doctors’ surgeries, to ensure that essential journeys carried out by foot can take place. I hope that the hon. Member for Bolton West will appreciate that, again, it is not for us to tell local authorities which roads and pavements should be clear, but as I have made plain to the Local Government Association and others, it is incumbent on them to think about the needs of those who are on foot, as well as those who are in vehicles.

I hope that we have made it easier for individuals who want to help to take action themselves by removing the suggestion that they will be subject to legal action if they clear their path or help in any other way. It was unhelpful that that suggestion got around and we have knocked it on the head. We have made it clear that we welcome people taking sensible steps to keep pavements clear both for themselves and for other people. We are also grateful to the farming community for the steps it has taken to ensure that it can help with vehicles that, for example, are stranded in country lanes and that would otherwise be there for some time. The idea that people should help each other is not new, but it does not do any harm to reiterate it today.

I have dealt with emergency timetables, the CAA and the surface access. On the Highways Agency and crisis response, I am happy to say that the agency has developed and implemented a revised crisis management policy to co-ordinate its services better during a severe winter incident. That policy ensures that an appropriate level of Highways Agency command is in place to take over all strategic management. Its aim is improved co-ordination, thereby mitigating the impact of severe weather in the first instance and, if necessary, helping to speed up the recovery of the network. As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside said, the Highways Agency did a pretty good job last year, but obviously there is still room for improvement and we are keen to see that.

[John Woodcock]

Does that include extra capacity on the emergency telephone line, if needed? If the Minister is not sure of the answer, will he write to me?

[Norman Baker]

I will mull that over and provide an answer before the end of the debate.

The hon. Gentleman asked about snow wardens. The Local Government Group has set up a website for local authorities to share best practice, including what to do about snow wardens and encouraging that process. I understand that many authorities already have snow warden schemes in place.

The hon. Member for Bolton West suggested that we might do more to lean on local authorities. We try to resist the temptation to suggest that Whitehall knows best—that we can always run what happens in Kettering better than people in Kettering can. We do not want to do that. I draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the fact that a local authority has a general duty under section 41 of the Highways Act 1980 to ensure, as far as is reasonably practical, that safe passage along a highway is not threatened by snow or ice. If she or anyone else thinks that local authorities are failing in that duty, they can of course pursue them appropriately, but that is the general duty that I hope gives some reassurance and cover.

I was asked about variable message signs on highways to improve the information that can be displayed. I take the point that sometimes messages are first seen from a long way away and may not be current when they are reached. I also take the point—I referred to it earlier—that localised weather conditions can be such that the message actually gives inaccurate information. However, the Highways Agency is widening the use of variable message signs to improve the messages that can be displayed during severe weather. They will now be able to be used to provide severe weather-related incident information and warnings of forecasts of severe weather, as well as messages saying that weather will be particularly bad in any particular area. The agency is trying to provide that information in a more localised and more up-to-date fashion, bearing in mind the constraints that I mentioned.

As was mentioned, the Highways Agency is developing a comprehensive publicity campaign for this winter, which is aimed at encouraging road users to take more responsibility for their actions during severe weather through focused messages. Road users are being encouraged to plan their journeys ahead of severe weather, to check weather forecasts before setting out, and to prepare their car and carry an emergency kit with them. Variable messages will be used to make that point to drivers. The campaign is called “Make time for winter”. I am happy to tell the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside that that partnership marketing campaign takes on board the comments made by her Committee and responds directly to them. The campaign was launched on 24 October, in unison with the Cabinet Office’s “Get Ready for Winter” and Scotland’s “Ready Scotland” campaigns. I hope that they will be useful in making drivers consider their actions carefully throughout the winter period.

It is difficult to be specific about whether drivers should go out. Ultimately, people have to make their own judgments based on common sense. It is common for the Government to tell individuals not to fly to a particular country because of the political situation unless they have to. We have to rely on individuals to make those judgments for themselves. All we can do is put a flag up and say, “Hang on a minute, look at the facts in this particular case.” That is what we will try to do.

The information about Highways Agency telephone lines has now come to me. I am told that the agency has a wide range of channels for members of the public to contact it and is not aware of any particular problems with the telephone line systems. However, as the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness raised the matter, I will look into it and write to him with any further information.

The Highways Agency carried out a complete review of its performance last winter, taking into account the recommendations of both the Transport Committee and the Quarmby audit. It has worked with a number of key stakeholders to develop measures to improve preparedness for severe weather this winter. I have referred to some of those measures, but it is also carrying out a series of winter snow desk exercises and stakeholder briefing sessions to test its preparedness for the coming winter, and issuing guidance to service providers to confirm elements of the winter service that need to be exercised in advance of winter. It has taken other steps, including better liaison with the Met Office.

I mentioned that I regularly raise passenger information during disruption with train companies. It may be useful for hon. Members to know that the Office of Rail Regulation has been consulting on making good passenger information a licence condition for train operating companies. I understand that it is likely to announce its conclusions shortly, after consultation, and I will be interested to hear what it says—it is, of course, independent of Government.

It may be useful to comment on the train companies’ preparation in terms of both trains and the network, so that we can be more confident than perhaps some people have been in the resilience of the rail network for the coming winter. I think that it is fair to say that both the train companies and Network Rail have taken significant steps to improve their preparedness compared with last year—and, indeed, last year was better than the year before. Network Rail now has key route strategies for each route, which set out arrangements for keeping route lines and critical junctions open and which facilities can be expected to be provided.

On the routes that are electrified with third-rail current—a point raised by the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness—which are by and large south of London, Network Rail has introduced conductor rail heating in critical locations, which will keep it clear of snow and ice. The pilot projects so far have been successful and we are considering further roll-out. Network Rail has also introduced a new and improved snow and ice clearance train, including a snow plough and equipment to keep the conductor rail free of ice and snow. The hon. Gentleman also asked whether the commitment to meet certain deadlines by 1 December had been met. I am assured that the answer is yes, it has been met.

Extra point heaters have been installed in some locations to ensure that points remain operational—as hon. Members will know, points are particularly vulnerable to freezing, which can then cause a major problem in either direction for quite some distance—and maintenance has been carried out on existing point heaters to ensure that they remain reliable. The train companies have already undertaken maintenance work on their train fleets to improve reliability during winter operation, including action to minimise problems with frozen sliding doors and frozen couplings. Some fleets on the third-rail network have been equipped to spray de-icing fluid to keep the conductor rail clear of ice and snow. They have also ensured that supplies of salt and de-icing products are available at stations and depots, to keep platforms and other areas clear of snow and ice for the benefit of passenger safety.

The train companies are also being encouraged by us to liaise with local highway authorities to ensure that roads leading to stations and depots are kept clear of snow and ice—the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside talked about co-ordination across modes—and staffing arrangements have been reviewed to ensure that staff are available to operate the service. A number of train companies have made arrangements to accommodate staff who are unable to get home.

Several train companies have produced contingency timetables that will be introduced in the event of severe winter weather. They have been validated by Network Rail to ensure that they are capable of being operated robustly. Improvements in timetabling software mean that they can be uploaded to industry journey-planning systems overnight. Steps have been taken—sometimes high-tech, sometimes low—to improve trains and keep them resilient, including, according to my crude understanding, stuffing a sock into the horn to ensure that it does not fail, because if the horn fails, the train cannot go out. Every possibility, therefore, is being covered by the train companies to ensure that trains run.

My experience last year was that the train companies tried hard to ensure that trains ran—for example, Virgin ran trains to get people home, although they had to run slowly. One of the points I make to officials and others in the rail industry is that it would not be right to penalise companies through their performance measures if they were doing the right thing and getting passengers home rather than meeting some abstract performance measure. Southern also performed well by running diesel stock down the Brighton main line, which enabled passengers to get home under diesel traction when the third rail was not available; other companies took similarly helpful measures. The information from one or two companies was clearly inadequate, which caused a great deal of unhappiness among passengers, but I am confident that those companies will be much better prepared to deal with passenger disruption this year.

I hope that I have covered most of the points made today. If I have missed any out, I will pick up on them and write to Members accordingly.

Rural Bus Services

Debate between Norman Baker and Lord Walney

Tuesday 11th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Norman Baker]

If I am allowed to make some progress, I will of course address that point. I am trying to structure my response. The hon. Member for Great Yarmouth, whose debate it is, referred to these issues: bus service operators grant, local tendered services, support from local authorities and concessionary fares. I will deal with each of those. The point that I am making on the first one is that it is not an issue that should concern hon. Members, because the bus operators themselves have said that the reduction can be absorbed. Therefore, BSOG is not a problem in terms of the services provided.

[John Woodcock]

Just to be clear, is the Minister saying that he is clear that there will be no further reductions in services as a result of the reduction in BSOG next year?