Fracking

Debate between Norman Baker and David Morris

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[Norman Baker]

To be clear, I am not speaking on behalf of my party; I am speaking on behalf of my constituents. I am not against exploring for geothermal, but I think that the same concerns apply, and they need to be properly considered and factored in. I would not want environmental standards to be compromised by anything that takes place in energy production, and geothermal would have to meet stringent standards.

The Chair of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), has said that there are too many unknowns when it comes to potential damage to the environment. The National Trust has said:

“There are very real dangers for the environment in going all out for fracking…Our position on fracking is clear—if fracking were proposed today on our land we would say no.”

There are, allegedly, potential health implications. I am not an expert on health matters, and therefore I simply wish to report what has been said and leave it to others to judge whether they are convinced. It is, however, right to put on record the fact that concerns have been expressed. The Lancet, no less, which is rigorous in ensuring that anything in its publication is of a high standard, recently published an article by Michael Hill, an expert adviser to the European Commission on the best available techniques for the management of waste rock, in which he stated:

“Although the UK Government has indeed stated that it accepts the Royal Society and Royal Academy of Engineering Working Group’s recommendations on shale gas extraction, the reality is that only one of these recommendations has been implemented in full; one out of ten in 2 years.”

Will the Minister confirm whether that is the case and, if it is, when the other recommendations will be implemented? Mr Hill stated:

“Other recommendations have been ignored or the opposite has been put in place.”

He went on, rather worryingly, to say:

“Recent studies from the USA have suggested an increased risk of adverse health events (such as congenital heart defects and low Apgar scores) in individuals living close to natural gas development (within a radius of 10 miles). These preliminary findings need to be replicated and explored further in large prospective studies; it may be irresponsible to consider any further fracking in the UK (exploratory or otherwise) until these prospective studies have been completed and the health impacts of fracking have been determined.”

I make no comment, and I have no view, on whether fracking causes serious health issues. However, it seems to me that that question needs to be addressed, and it would be helpful if the Minister would say something about the matter.

I draw attention to an article in The Independent on 30 October, which states that, according to scientists:

“Dangerously high levels of cancer-causing chemicals have been discovered in the air around ‘fracking’ sites in the United States…Levels of benzene, formaldehyde and hydrogen sulphide were many times above the US’s air pollution limits and were detected within residential areas near to fracking wells drilled across five different states, the researchers said. Some levels of benzene—a known carcinogen—were more than 30 times the concentrations that would be found in the air at a petrol station when filling a car with fuel, they said.”

That is a US study, and everything depends on the regulatory regime. If the Minister can convince hon. Members that regulation in this country is much tighter than it is in the US, he may allay those concerns. However, given the remarks that have been made about the Infrastructure Bill, we remain to be convinced that the regulation is as strict as the Minister may claim.

[David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, even though fracking is relatively new in this country, the House has had a debate that shows that we will have the world’s safest regulation on fracking? The experience in America happened over a period of decades when regulation was not as tight.

[Norman Baker]

I agree that regulation in the US has not been particularly tight, as far as I can tell. I agree that Ministers have committed themselves to a strict regulatory regime, which is good. I question whether the rhetoric bears truth to the reality, because the Infrastructure Bill does not seem to reflect the high level of regulation that I would like to see.

Carnforth Station

Debate between Norman Baker and David Morris

Monday 11th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) on securing this timely debate on the important subject of platforms at Carnforth station, and on enabling us to have this brief encounter tonight. He has set out with great clarity the arguments in favour of reinstating the fast-line platforms at the station, and his passion and commitment cannot be doubted. I also pay tribute to the work carried out by local people in restoring the station to its former glory.

In 1945, David Lean filmed his romantic classic “Brief Encounter”, starring Celia Johnson and Trevor Howard, at Carnforth station. Many will remember the key role that the station played in the film. The image of the station clock remains resonant for many filmgoers, as my hon. Friend mentioned. However, a long period of decline set in, following the Beeching era. By the early 1990s, the once splendid station had fallen into disrepair. The Carnforth Station and Railway Trust Company Ltd was formed as a local initiative in November 1996 to restore the derelict buildings. A £1.5 million project was commenced in late 2000 in co-operation with Railtrack. After three years’ work, the Brief Encounter refreshment room and visitor centre was opened on 17 October 2003. That represented a remarkable achievement by local people in the Carnforth area, which I commend.

As my hon. Friend explained, local ambitions at Carnforth now focus on the reinstatement of the mainline platforms at Carnforth station, which closed in 1970. However, it would not be possible to discuss the reinstatement of the mainline platforms without referring to the planned developments for inter-city rail services on the west coast main line.

In January, the Government issued a consultation on the specification for the new inter-city west coast franchise, which is due to commence in 2012 and will replace the current Virgin Trains rail franchise. The current franchise operates more than 300 train services a day, delivering more than 26 million passenger journeys and 3.2 billion passenger miles a year, providing train services along the west coast main line from Euston to Glasgow in Scotland. It serves the key cities of Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Edinburgh and Glasgow, and north Wales. Passenger growth has shown a continuous increase since 2003. The effects of the volcanic ash clouds in 2010 and earlier this year and the associated aviation disruption have contributed to a considerable modal shift from air to rail—something that the Government very much welcome for climate change reasons. The objectives for the new franchise set out in January therefore include exploiting the full potential of the route and maximising capacity.

The Government believe that the former system of franchising had become too prescriptive at the point of bidding and lacked flexibility once operational. A new franchising system has been devised to facilitate and encourage significant private investment, and is designed to deliver important benefits for passengers. The Government also believe that longer franchises are necessary to encourage such investment, build successful long-term working relationships with Network Rail, focus franchises more strongly on the quality of outcomes for passengers and deliver the best possible value for money for the taxpayer in a highly constrained public spending environment.

Where does all that fit in with the Carnforth station platform request? Let me turn to the local aspirations for the station once again to become a stop on long-distance services. It is important to emphasise that both the current Virgin Trains franchise and the new inter-city west coast franchise have to accommodate many different markets. A key issue in any proper consideration of the matter is whether a proposal to stop London train services at reinstated platforms at Carnforth would work operationally and commercially. Initial analysis by the Department suggests that a call at Carnforth would require a stop at another station to be deleted. Therefore, a potential gain at Carnforth would result in a disbenefit to passengers from other stations on the route. Obviously that would require some hard and careful decision making.

[David Morris]

I should point out that Virgin trains stop in Carnforth for 20 minutes in the morning and evening, but they do not let passengers on. I spoke to Chris Gibb about this subject less than 12 months ago, and he said that if we had the platforms, those trains could take passengers on. The issue is something to do with the schedule for cleaning the trains.

[Norman Baker]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that information, which I was not aware of. I will investigate that to see whether it represents a way forward. My point, however, is that there is a potential trade-off between extra stops on the service and the speed of the journey between two key points where the main market is. In an ideal world, we would obviously like to meet both requirements—the local aspirations that exist, as well as the need to get longer-distance traffic transferred from air to rail—and journey times are key to delivering that. However, I will certainly look at his point, which is valid.

It is fair to say that the west coast main line is heavily used in the Carnforth area, with up to three long-distance services an hour between London, Birmingham or Manchester and Glasgow or Edinburgh, plus regular freight services. Those trains are already popular and well loaded. Capacity problems already exist, and growth in demand continues. Indeed, it is interesting to note that, even in the recession, we have seen buoyant markets for rail that have continued to expand at a time when other forms of transport have not seen the same response. Despite the £8.8 billion upgrade, the west coast main line is already suffering some congestion when it comes to access for freight services and local services, so we have to ensure that the line is used to best capacity.

Network Rail’s route utilisation strategy for the west coast main line was published on 1 July. It corroborates the heavy usage of the line and the resulting capacity issues, but as my hon. Friend said, it did not consider the reinstatement of the platforms at Carnforth. The Department’s analysis is that journey times would be increased by around five minutes to accommodate calls at reinstated platforms at Carnforth. That has to be borne in mind and weighed against the significant journey savings and more frequent services that have resulted from the upgrade to the west coast main line. London to Glasgow is now 30 minutes quicker than it was before the changes, with a very competitive four hour and 50 minute journey time, while trains from Manchester airport and Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh are now around 20 to 30 minutes faster.

These enhancements have delivered significant revenue growth since December 2008 and increased rail’s share of the total travel market on the routes served by the west coast main line. These are markets rail serves well and there are strong calls for further journey time reductions, as my hon. Friend will recognise. All these and a number of other issues mean that stopping long-distance London services at Carnforth would probably involve a number of trade-offs that are less straightforward than might first seem to be the case. As I said, however, I will investigate the specific point that my hon. Friend raised with me and write to him about it subsequently.

Similar considerations apply to the other train services that operate on the west coast main line and might also be candidates for additional stops at reinstated platforms, such as the services currently originating in Birmingham and Manchester. It is already possible to travel direct between Carnforth and other stations to the south. This seems to imply that the main benefit of stopping non-London services at reinstated main line platforms at Carnforth would be to create new direct journey opportunities between Carnforth and stations to the north—including Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle and other northern destinations into Scotland.

As can be seen from what I have said today, nobody should underestimate the fact that reinstating the fast-line platforms at Carnforth station would involve more than some hard decision making. It is not simply a question of finding the money for the platforms, although I pay tribute to the tremendous spirit that my hon. Friend and his constituents are demonstrating in their willingness and determination to try to secure their reinstatement. Local funding is, of course, important for platform reinstatement, but it does not necessarily determine whether a future franchise would require trains to stop there. It is certainly a way forward and clear willingness has been shown to secure money for that particular end. Indeed, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, local people have already demonstrated what they can achieve with the improvements already made to Carnforth station.

Such local funding, if enough could be found to cover the potentially substantial costs, would reduce the initial financial burden. However, we would also have to ensure that the ongoing additional maintenance and renewal costs were covered. The next step for those in favour of reinstating the fast-line platforms at Carnforth would therefore be to identify how this reinstatement could be delivered and, indeed, funded in the longer term in respect of those additional maintenance and renewal costs. The Government believe that the local authority would also have an important role to play and we would wish to see whether it supported such a move as part of its transport strategy. Equally, it would be vital that there was clear support from a train operating company for such a move.

In conclusion, the Government welcome local initiatives to improve rail services as fitting their wider localism agenda. The Department is always very happy to provide advice and guidance, but we think that decisions such as this are best made locally. At the end of this debate, let me say to my hon. Friend that I recognise and sympathise with the case he has put. There are significant problems, which I have identified—stopping services and the penalty in journey times—but I will go back to my officials and raise with them one more time the points that he has raised tonight to see whether there is any way we can make any progress, without me making any commitments from the Dispatch Box tonight. I will write to him about both the general and specific points he has raised.

Question put and agreed to.