Jobcentre Plus

Nigel Mills Excerpts

Thursday 10th July 2014 Westminster Hall

[Dame Anne Begg]

We have been consistent in requesting that the Department introduce a classification tool, so the Select Committee has certainly been convinced of the efficacy of such a tool, and 70% seems not too bad. I think the figure ranged between 50% and 70%, but that is better than nothing. At the moment, it can be a bit hit and miss whether someone is even identified as homeless. Their personal adviser has to recognise that the address they have given indicates that they may be homeless. As well, people with mental health problems will not necessarily reveal all in a short, cursory interview with a complete stranger, but that kind of information would be and is useful to anybody trying to get an individual into work or back into the workplace.

Our report recognised that JCP is good at what it is currently being asked to do: it has become adept at getting people off benefit in as short a time as possible. Since April 2011, JCP’s primary performance measure has been what is called “benefit off-flow”. The old mantra “What gets measured gets done” certainly comes to mind. About 75% of jobseeker’s allowance claimants come off benefit within six months, and some 90% are off benefit within a year. But—and this is a big “but”—is getting someone off benefit quickly always good enough? Is off benefit always a good and sustainable outcome?

Our answer to those questions was a clear no. The evidence suggests that measuring JCP performance primarily by benefit off-flow is unsophisticated. Jobcentre staff are likely to say to themselves, “Let’s concentrate our efforts on people who are most likely to come off benefits quickly—we need to meet our 13-week target—and let’s keep a very close eye on anyone coming up to 26, 39 or 52 weeks on benefit too.” Who can blame them for that? That is how their efficiency and effectiveness is measured, and that is the task that they have been set by Ministers, but JCP needs to be incentivised to take a more sophisticated approach.

Our second key recommendation was that JCP’s performance measures be amended to ensure that Jobcentre staff are more clearly incentivised to get people not just off benefit but into sustainable and long-term employment.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that that would also tie in with the way we assess the Work programme providers and make much more sense in the world of universal credit, assuming that it is fully rolled out? Under universal credit, people will not be coming off benefit. Their level of benefit will perhaps decline based on how much work they are doing, but their level of work could fluctuate from week to week or month to month, so the measurement would be largely meaningless.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Indeed; that was one of the things we pointed out in our report. We drew particular attention to it in our more recent report on the implementation of universal credit, which was debated in the Chamber on Monday—that is two reports in a week, showing that we are a really busy Committee. Although we might be sceptical of how far universal credit is being rolled out, there is no doubt that, as my friend the hon. Gentleman pointed out—he is my friend because he is on the Select Committee—its introduction provides an opportunity for the Government to think differently about how to measure the real success of Jobcentre Plus.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate and to follow the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams). Members of the Work and Pensions Committee have been debating different aspects of the Committee’s work in various rooms this week, and it is a pleasure to do so again.

Trying to think back six months to when the report was published was quite challenging, and it was interesting to see what has changed since. There have certainly been various improvements to various things. I was keen that the Committee held this inquiry because, with all the changes to the welfare system, actually trying to work out where best Jobcentre Plus fits and where it can contribute the most was not straightforward. At one extreme, one could say that if the Work programme is the way to go, why do we wait for people, with all their different skills, incentives and expertise, to spend a whole year unemployed before passing them on? Perhaps we should completely divorce the welfare enforcement and welfare support roles. We could use providers to do support and Jobcentre Plus could concentrate on enforcement. It was clear from the evidence received by the inquiry—I asked that question of nearly every witness—that there was no motivation for that at all. It would have been costly and would have undermined the great work that jobcentres do in all our constituencies by providing the right amount of support at the right stages for each individual claimant. The Committee completely rejected the idea of such a divorce and we can see that jobcentres have an important role to play in the future of tackling unemployment.

We are left with what the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), the Committee’s Chairman, referred to as the holy grail challenge. Everyone recognises that we need to provide the right kind of support at the right time. In an ideal world, that support would be more individual and focused for some and much more light touch for others. A lot of people who fall out of work might find more pretty quickly by their own endeavours, so they do not need much money spent on them. The holy grail is how to work out early in the process which people need more intensive support and which ones can be left pretty much to their own devices.

If we could find an assessment tool to do that, it would tackle the awful situation of people who have fallen out of a job but who will struggle to find another one, even though they might have had a long and successful work history—perhaps after they have been in the job for a while, their industry has left the area completely, or their skills have become completely out of date—because nothing they have been doing before is still there for them. It is a horrible situation of someone falling through the holes, because we do not realise how much support they need to reskill until they have been jobseeking hard for six months, and they will have become demoralised by failing, and so are getting further from the labour market as the weeks go by. There is a danger of that awful progress—the longer it takes someone to find a job, the harder it gets.

I agree entirely with having a tool to identify who needs intensive support right at the start, so that we can get them the retraining, the new skills or whatever early in the process, rather than leaving it for six months, until the Work programme or, heaven forbid, even until after the Work programme has failed them as well. That has to be the right answer; a key to enable the Department to focus its resources on those who need them, rather than risking simply helping those who might not need them.

In another situation, Government policy is to ask jobcentres to do a whole new area of work, in-work conditionality. If the journey of claimants with the jobcentre does not end when they find their job—once they have found a job, we want to help, support and encourage them, and perhaps even stronger than that, to increase their hours or their wage rate to get their level of benefit claim down even further—how we find the resources and mechanisms to support people on that continued journey will be a real demand on a jobcentre. It will require a different set of skills and approaches of jobcentre staff. Helping someone who does not have a job to find one in the first place, with job searches and so on, is different from helping them to increase their skills while in work or to look for extra hours or ways of getting more skills to get promoted.

How we resource and skill that policy is important if we are to make in-work conditionality work. Otherwise, I suspect, it can only be a phone call every few months to say, “What are you doing to find extra hours?”, “What are you doing to look for a better job somewhere else?”, or “Do you realise you can’t just stay where you are, doing exactly what you are doing?”, and I am not sure that that is a helpful process to get into. Exactly how we mesh that with universal credit and changes to how advisers approach such situations leaves us looking for a relatively fundamental change in work processes. Almost certainly, that means that the existing target—how many people can you get off benefits?—will no longer be a meaningful target.

If one of the advantages of universal credit is that people can be in work for a few weeks and drop out again, but their benefits will go back up automatically, or they find more work or perhaps their hours fluctuate, the target to get people off benefits will not apply, because they will not ever be off benefits under the new definition. Currently, people move off out-of-work benefits, on to tax credits and, heaven forbid, back again. Now, however, as a way of measuring what we are trying to achieve, we will need to find a more sophisticated target, one which looks at sustained employment or at how we follow people into and through their jobs. We heard evidence to say that that was a hard thing for jobcentres to do—finding out who people were employed by, phoning up the former claimants or their employer—when neither had any great need to engage. If people have found a job and stopped claiming, phoning the jobcentre a few weeks later is not on their agenda.

[Dame Anne Begg]

The hon. Gentleman suggests that people, once they have gone off benefit, are not interested in engaging at all. One of the excuses that the DWP gave us for not doing any measure other than the benefit calculation was that people did not want to be bothered, or that employers were not interested in letting the jobcentre know that the person was still in a job.

[Nigel Mills]

That is exactly the problem—how we motivate engagement on both sides, which we will need with universal credit and any in-work conditionality. We have to find a way of gathering reliable data. It is similar to a high-level instinct, or perhaps real-time information will provide something. Perhaps the RTI feed will show that the person is still in employment or even at the same employer—if we wanted to track the data that far back—but that looks to be a pretty clunky and limited way of checking things. Unless there are flags that show when employment has stopped, flagging it back to the jobcentre, we would not know that people had ceased to be in sustained employment, perhaps meeting the 12 or 26-week target, or whatever was set in that situation. I am not sure that there is an easy solution to anything, but for us to find a set of targets and work routes that work in such a situation will be important to how the jobcentre role develops.

The next area that I want to touch on is one that was topical last summer, when we started the inquiry: what happens to people when their two years on the Work programme finishes and they become the jobcentre’s responsibility again. This time last year, I remember speaking to the staff at my local jobcentre and they were not entirely sure what they were going to be doing with people in that situation when the first Work programme cohorts finished. Jobcentres have an important role to play, because we are talking about people who have not got a job in their first year of unemployment and who then got through the Work programme for two years and have not found sustained work. We could expect them to need some intensive support, but it is a little hard to see that jobcentres would be geared up for that, having not been doing it for people in that key two-year period previously. So what would we do with them?

Last week, I was pleased to meet a new subcontractor, Acorn, which is in Derbyshire dealing with what I think are now called community work placements, a new set of rolled-out private sector providers offering a different type of Work programme service that is not the Work programme and does something subtly different. I confess that the procurement of the service and how we chose the providers has passed me by, but in the east midlands, for example, we have G4S. Luckily for the east midlands in some ways, it is not one of the Work programme providers, because we have a completely separate, third firm in Derbyshire to do things. We have, however, found a sensible programme of community placements that are not meant to be free labour for unscrupulous private sector operators, but are meant to be getting people who have gone through three years of support finding something that at least gets them used to working normal working hours and some skills on their CV, making them more employable.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Obviously, it is early days to know how the post-Work programme arrangements are working, but a complaint of many of my constituents about the Work programme was that it was not particularly intensive. If anything, it was very light touch—“Come in every seven or eight weeks”, and sometimes the only contact was by phone. It seemed to concentrate everything on CV writing and applying for jobs. If the more intensive approach is important, should it not be starting much earlier than three years into unemployment?

[Nigel Mills]

I agree. I was trying to explore with G4S when I had that meeting with it and Acorn exactly what the financial remuneration was for successful outcomes under the community work placement, and how that compared with the rewards under the Work programme for some of the harder-to-deal-with people who are further from the labour market. I was trying to work out whether we could expect Work programme providers to do such work placements if they had someone whom they were struggling with on the Work programme. Is there a need to tweak the contracts or to change the incentives slightly? We could try to get such support provided during the two years, not after the two years. For some reason, they were not totally inclined to give me a clear answer on those numbers. Perhaps it was the wrong time to ask them.

It is always about the sequencing of things—how do we step up the intensity of support at the right time? I am sure that we want a system in which if somebody really needs the most intensive support, they get it early in the process, rather than one in which we see how long we can demoralise them before we give them what they probably needed in the first place.

It is intriguing. When looking at the role of the jobcentre we thought, perhaps slightly competitively, that we had a real chance to prove that where a Work programme provider has failed, the jobcentre can help people and sort the situation out. But we have ended up with another outsourced programme. Does that suggest that in many ways we do not feel that the jobcentre’s role is to provide any intensive support to people—that its role is enforcement plus some coaching in the early days and some relatively light-touch support? I am not saying that that is my view, but it appears now that for every situation we come across we find a different outsourced programme.

Finally I want to touch on Universal Jobmatch and the role of IT. I see Universal Jobmatch as a great success. I played with the old job search system in jobcentres and looking at the new one it is clearly much easier to use—for example, people can work it at home—and looks like the right direction of travel. I share the hope that Monster has managed to fix the problem of the artificial, unethical or non-existent job placements that had been going on to Jobmatch, to try to make it as effective a system as possible. I suspect that there is no way that these things can be perfect, and that people will always be able to get through any filters to put rogue jobs on, so it is a matter of how effectively we can monitor the service and get those taken off once they are found. But clearly the problem should not have been on the scale that it got to.

As for IT, having enough computers in jobcentres—and enough staff to support people using them—is quite important, especially when we are requiring IT job searches and will sanction people who do not do them. The library in Heanor, a town in my seat, had to close for reasons of maintenance—or the lack of it—and we lost the IT provision in the town centre. It then became quite hard for claimants who did not have IT access at home and had lost their library. Trying to convince the jobcentre that it needed to find at least some temporary solution to get IT provision back into the town and to support people while the library was finding an alternative site was not as easy as I might have liked it to be.

I suspect the vision for modern jobcentres is for them to have lots of computer terminals so that IT job searches are perfectly possible. I know that one of the jobcentres in my seat was down for an early upgrade to get extra IT, but we need to make sure that every jobcentre has IT provision. If we are expecting people to use the service themselves and will sanction them if they do not, we have to make IT facilities available to them.

We can do more with the Universal Jobmatch system, as the Chair of the Select Committee remarked earlier. We ought to be looking to see whether we can make all the data on it flow two ways. Surely it can be a great tool. If someone has put their CV on it and has applied for 100 jobs but has never, ever been put forward into the best 50 applicants—or whatever number get prioritised—for the employer to see, that must surely say to somebody that that person’s CV is not good enough and they either need to produce a better one, or they need to have some training urgently to get more skills to put on it, or they are applying for completely the wrong jobs.

There ought to be a way of using the system to spot that some individual jobseekers need that kind of support—a better CV or some more skills—or perhaps even to spot that, say, there have been no jobs within a 20-mile radius that match the skills on a person’s CV in the last year, so there is no point in them keeping on applying for things that they are not going to get. That could then create a flag back to their jobcentre adviser, to say, “Something needs to happen with this person.” If we can find innovative ways of using the system to provide extra support—rather than just forcing people to go on it and mandating them to do so many job applications, some of which they are not too enthused about anyway—we might get a far better result for the investment we have made than if it is used purely as a job search tool.

Overall, the conclusion of the report is clearly that jobcentres do great work and have an important role. To share my own experience, when I have held jobs fairs in my seat the two jobcentres have been extremely helpful in getting employers and jobseekers there. They are working practically to try to tackle the problem, which is a pleasure to see in my seat.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

Like everyone who has spoken in the debate, Mr Amess, I want to say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship. I thank the Select Committee, and welcome the work that it has done on such an important topic.

It is disappointing, however, that the Government’s response to a very good report has been so negative. Of 24 recommendations only five were agreed to; five were rejected outright and the remaining 14 were partly agreed, although in quite a number of cases it struck me that the amount of agreement was very partial indeed. The Committee is right to affirm the value of a public employment service for unemployed people. Jobcentre Plus has been admired around the world, and we have been reminded, rightly, of the recent conclusion by the National Audit Office that it continues to do an efficient job. I very much concur with that judgment.

Jobcentre Plus does an efficient job. It also does a very important job. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) is absolutely right to draw attention to the links between having employment and having good health. I noticed that the Prince’s Trust recently undertook research on that issue. Martina Milburn, its long-serving chief executive, makes this point:

“Unemployment is proven to cause devastating, long-lasting mental health problems among young people.”

Whether someone is in a job is a very important issue, so the task that Jobcentre Plus has is very important.

I visited Germany last year to look at the way in which youth unemployment was being tackled and visited an office in the town of Wolfsburg, Hanover, where the Volkswagen plant employs 60,000 people. I went into the office, which is jointly run by the local authority and the federal employment service, to talk about how it was supporting unemployed people, and one thing that struck me about it was that above the door it said “Jobcentre”. The people there had chosen to adopt the English term for that establishment, and the reason was that 10 years ago, when the Germans made the big reforms to their welfare system—the Hartz IV reforms—they took inspiration from what had happened in the UK. Jobcentre Plus was quite new at that time. They wanted a name that showed their ambition for a very effective, modern service, and they were inspired by the English system, so they have adopted the term “Jobcentre” for their establishments.

As we have heard, jobcentres in the UK are still doing an efficient job. Nevertheless, I am afraid that something has gone quite badly wrong in recent years. I do not think that anyone else in the world today would be inspired by what they hear is happening in our jobcentres, and the issue of sanctions, which has been highlighted in this report and debate, is a big part of the explanation for what has happened. I agree with the hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) that it is clear that too often sanctioning goes wrong.

Of course, there are a lot of statistics about benefit sanctions. One that interested me was one that I got in a written answer on 25 March 2013 at column 986W of Hansard. I asked what the total amount withheld from jobseeker’s allowance payments as a result of benefit sanctions was, and the answer came back that the benefit withheld from fixed JSA sanctions was, in 2009-10, the year leading up to the general election, £11 million, in 2010-11 £43 million, in 2011-12 £45 million and in 2012-13, up to October 2012 only—in other words, just the first half of 2012-13—£60 million. That suggests that the amount being withheld in benefit sanctions had gone up tenfold up to October 2012, compared with the year leading up to the general election.

It is important to underline the truth that sanctions are an indispensable part of a benefits system designed to promote employment. No one should read into anything that I am saying—or, I think, what anyone else in the debate has said—that we should scrap sanctions, but there is a pertinent question, raised in this report, about whether something has gone quite badly wrong in the way in which they are being applied at the moment.

[Nigel Mills]

I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) and you, Mr Amess, because I need to leave for a constituency engagement shortly, but on the point that the right hon. Gentleman raises, will he therefore join me in regretting the fact that when the unions came to give evidence to us in this inquiry, they did not support sanctions having any part in the benefits system?

[Stephen Timms]

In the discussions that I have had with trade union members about this issue, the point has not been put to me that there should not be any sanctions. Sanctions have been part of the benefits system ever since the system was invented; there is nothing new about sanctions. I have not heard a case that sanctions should be entirely scrapped, but I do think that there is justified concern, partly expressed in this debate and certainly expressed by trade unions and others, including citizens advice bureaux and disability organisations, about the way in which the system is working at the moment.

We heard a good deal in the debate, and I was very interested to hear the contributions about what hon. Members have been told by whistleblowers because I have had a similar experience. One of my constituents, who works at a jobcentre, raised with me very similar concerns to the ones that we have heard about what is going on. I was very concerned by that. I forwarded her concerns to the Minister. The Minister responded, for which my constituent and I were grateful, and my constituent subsequently wrote to the Minister directly and copied me into what she said. I will quote from her letter, which said that

“staff at the Jobcentre are actively encouraged to impose benefit sanctions and are threatened with PIPs”—

I was not sure what they were, but I gather from my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) that they are performance improvement programmes—

“if they fail to get certain numbers of people off benefit per week…all too often it is the more vulnerable in society it is affecting, and probably not the customers who are too smart to be caught out by the sanctions. The large increase in people using the food banks is mainly due to the unfair benefit sanctions being imposed upon customers. I know the food bank in Hoxton has actually had to ask the JCP in Hackney to stop making so many referrals to them as they are unable to cope with the numbers”.

My constituent goes on to say that staff

“have never experienced working conditions like they have in the last few years…people who have worked so hard implementing the unpopular policies have been treated in an awful manner.”

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East raised the concerns that people have repeatedly drawn attention to that staff in jobcentres are being given targets. There have been the odd, well documented examples of where that has been the case, although in those instances Ministers have stepped in to make it absolutely clear that there are no formal targets, but it is the case, as I understand it, that in regular staff appraisals—this was confirmed, I think, in a written parliamentary answer—the number of sanctions that an adviser has issued is one of the bits of data on the table for the appraisal. Staff understand that, understandably and probably rightly, as indicating that they are, in part, being evaluated by how many sanctions they have issued—not whether those sanctions were accurate or appropriate, but whether there are enough of them. I think that it is clear that a culture has been developed in which staff are under pressure to issue more sanctions. My constituent talked about the awful working conditions. Let us be frank: that is part of the background to the industrial action taking place today.

A good deal of the external interest in this report has focused on the question of sanctions. There is no doubt that the dramatic increase both in the number of sanctions and in the amount of money taken off people—the duration of sanctions, which my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth also talked about—has been a big factor in the growth of food banks. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) is absolutely right to say that no one should hide their head in the sand about that. I had not quite twigged it, but my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth made this telling point. Will people who have been sanctioned for a period of months, a year or even three years carry on signing on every fortnight just so that they appear in the claimant count? Of course they will not, and undoubtedly the claimant count is being depressed as a result.

Of course, all these reports, from whistleblowers, charities and food banks, can be and sometimes are dismissed as anecdotal. However, the pretty distressing picture that staff whistleblowers are painting is consistent with what a lot of jobseekers say. A few weeks ago, I was invited by Tesco to visit a new store with its HR director. Through the impressive regeneration model that Tesco has developed in partnership with the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, the company had been very careful to recruit and train a large number of staff at the new store who had previously been unemployed. Tesco put them through an eight-week training course before the store opened. I was introduced to four of the staff who had been recruited in that way, and we talked about their experience. I asked them about their experience with Jobcentre Plus, and all four said that the main aim of the jobcentre had seemingly been not to help them but to catch them out and sanction their benefits. I think it is a real tragedy how badly the reputation of Jobcentre Plus has been damaged by the aggressive approach to sanctioning that has been introduced. It will take a lot to repair that damage.

In its briefing for the debate, Crisis told us about somebody called Billy

“who was sanctioned for turning up to a meeting that turned out to be cancelled and then failing to attend another appointment he knew nothing about because the letter arrived six days after the date of the interview”.

We have heard several such stories during the debate. I draw attention to the website “A Selection of Especially Stupid Benefit Sanctions”, which has pages of this stuff:

“You get a job interview. It’s at the same time as your job centre appointment, so you reschedule the job centre. You attend your rearranged appointment and then get a letter saying your benefits will be stopped because going to a job interview isn’t a good enough reason to miss an appointment.”

That one came from the Daily Mail.

“Your gran dies during the night. The next morning your partner calls the job centre and asks if you can come in the following day instead. The centre agrees, and you sign in the next day. Then you get a letter stating that you failed to sign in and would be sanctioned if you don’t reply within seven days. You reply, explaining the situation. The job centre gives you a six-week sanction for not replying.”

That one came from NetMums.

“You get a job that starts in two weeks time. You don’t look for work while you are waiting for the job to start. You’re sanctioned.”

That was from The Guardian.

“You apply for three jobs one week and three jobs the following Sunday and Monday. Because the job centre week starts on a Tuesday it treats this as applying for six jobs in one week and none the following week. You are sanctioned for 13 weeks for failing to apply for three jobs each week.”

That was from the Pontefract and Castleford Express.

“You have a job interview which overruns so you arrive at your job centre appointment 9 minutes late. You get sanctioned for a month.”

That one was from Consumer Action. As I say, there are pages and pages more on the website. Of course, those are anecdotal, but the jobcentre network now has that reputation and it will take a great deal to repair the damage that has been done.

A number of references have been made during the debate to the report that the Government commissioned. It is rather rare for the Opposition to be able to force the Government to do anything, but we were able, because the Government needed legislation quite quickly, to force Ministers to set up the review on sanctions, which was carried out by Matthew Oakley. Like everyone else, I am eagerly awaiting the report, which we thought would be published by the end of May but which has still not been published. I asked the Minister about that in a written answer the other day, and characteristically—of Ministers in the previous Government as well as in this one—the reply came back that it would be published “in due course.” Can the Minister give us any more detail? If she can, it would be welcome.

As we have heard, the Minister appeared to agree in her evidence to the Work and Pensions Committee that there should be a further review to consider not only Work programme or employment programme sanctions, but sanctions more generally. It was a disappointment to everybody that that commitment was not reflected in the Government response to the report, and I hope that the Minister might reaffirm the view that she expressed to the Committee.

It is particularly disappointing, although not surprising, that the Government have rejected recommendation 17 on page 47 of the report about recording the number of people who are signposted to food banks. There is no doubt that the increase in sanctions has played a big part in the remarkable growth of food banks over the past few years. The Committee recommended, as we have heard, that the Department should

“take urgent steps to monitor the extent of financial hardship caused by benefit sanctions, including by collecting, collating and publishing data on the number of claimants ‘signposted’ to food aid by Jobcentres and the reasons for claimants’ need for assistance in these cases.”

The way in which the Government have dealt with the Trussell Trust has been pretty disgraceful. When the Secretary of State was appointed, he rightly took a good deal of pride in announcing that he was lifting a ban on jobcentres referring people to food banks if they were in hardship and did not have enough money to buy food. I was the Minister for employment for a while, and I did not know that there was a ban on referring people to food banks, but apparently there was. The Secretary of State rightly said that that was wrong, and lifted the ban. The problem was that food banks started counting the number of people who were being referred from jobcentres and the reasons why they were being referred, which became far too embarrassing, so the Secretary of State reintroduced the ban on jobcentres referring people to food banks, although he said that it was all right to “signpost” people. I believe that the difference between signposting and referring is that when someone is signposted by a jobcentre to a food bank, they are not allowed to fill in the piece of paper issued by the food bank that states why they are being referred. The former approach enabled the Trussell Trust to collect data on how many people were being referred to food banks because they had been the victim of sanctions, benefit delays or other problems at the jobcentre, and the whole thing became too embarrassing for the Secretary of State so he said that he did not want it to continue.

It is a great shame that the Secretary of State has refused to meet the Trussell Trust and talk about the matter, because it has a number of sensible ideas about how the system could be made to work better, which would not cost the Government anything. The Secretary of State has accused the trust of having a political agenda simply, as far as I can tell, on the basis that it insists on publishing numbers about how many people go to food banks. That is a completely innocuous and public-spirited thing to do, but because the trust refuses to stop publishing that information, the Secretary of State accuses it of having a political agenda and being opposed to welfare reform.

Given that the Secretary of State has not been willing to meet the Trussell Trust, a couple of months ago I asked the Prime Minister if he would be willing to do so. He said that he would, and I am pleased to say that that meeting has taken place and the discussion was constructive and useful. Why on earth the Secretary of State is not willing to meet the trust for a similar discussion is a mystery to me, and I still hope that he might change his mind. I share the despair expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) about the extent of the reliance on food banks nowadays. The Trussell Trust makes it absolutely clear that it expects the need for food banks to continue. The scale of the dependence—a million people over the past 12 months—and the rate at which it is growing are causing the trust great concern and prompting questions about whether it can cope with the demand.

I want to mention two other points that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) has highlighted as the main recommendations in the report. Recommendation 21 on page 48 argues for

“the formulation of JCP performance indicators which promote and measure sustained job outcomes and better reflect the changing role of JCP consequent on the implementation of universal credit”.

The Committee makes the point—it is often suggested, and I think it is right—that the current measure incentivises behaviour that nobody wants. For example, if somebody goes in and out of claiming benefit—they do a couple of weeks’ work, then go back on benefit because the job fails, then do a couple of weeks’ work somewhere else, then go back on benefit—it makes a big positive contribution to benefit off-flow, because that person is coming off benefit a lot and the fact that they go back on benefit straight away is not picked up in the statistics. Of course nobody would regard that as a success in any meaningful sense of the word. It is certainly not what Ministers want to happen in jobcentres.

The Government’s response to that recommendation says:

“The current JCP performance metrics, focussing on off-flows, make best use of the data currently available to the Department, but do not track people once they leave benefit, as this is not cost-effective.”

That is the bit that I want to query. I do not understand why the Government are suggesting that it is not cost-effective to track what happens to people after they go off benefit, because the Government require Work programme providers to do exactly that. Work programme providers are remunerated entirely on the basis of whether somebody is in sustained work. Clearly, the Department has taken the view that it is cost-effective to require Work programme providers to find out that information, so why is it not cost-effective for Jobcentre Plus to do so? That seems to make no sense, and the Committee is right to highlight it in a recommendation. I hope that the change will be made before too long.

The other recommendation that I will mention was highlighted by the Chair of the Committee, and I agree with it. It is about segmentation. Recommendation 4 on page 44 of the report says that the DWP should

“continue to work to develop a ‘segmentation’ tool, to be conducted by Jobcentre advisers face-to-face with claimants, to allocate claimants to separate work streams according to their distance from the labour market and relative need for intensive employment support.”

I know that it is a long-held view among numerous people, including senior Jobcentre Plus staff, that segmentation is a rather illusory thing—my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South used the term “holy grail”—that everybody would like to be able to do: “We would like to be able to tell how much help a person will need to get back into work, but it is unachievable in practice.” However, like my hon. Friend, I am mystified as to why it can be done in Australia but not in the UK.

I know that that point has been made to Jobcentre Plus staff, who respond by saying that Australia and the UK are different, but they are not that different. I visited Australia last September to, among other things, see how the jobseeker classification instrument worked. Nobody is claiming that it is infallible. In Australia, if someone is placed in one stream and it subsequently turns out that they need a different level of support, they can change. It is not a completely inflexible, wooden instrument, and it is certainly helpful. It means that people are more likely to get the right amount of help than if there were no segmentation. Even the length of time that someone has been out of work, which is easy to establish, is a big indicator of how much help they will need.

Of course, we already have segmentation in the UK. In the Work programme, customers are placed in different payment groups, based not on the kind of segmentation for which the Committee rightly calls but on which benefit they receive—jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support allowance. That does not necessarily tell us anything about how much help someone needs to get back to work, and in practice, as I think is pretty widely recognised, it has proved hopeless.

That is one reason why people a long way from the labour market have been so badly let down by the Work programme, as the National Audit Office pointed out last week. Among claimants of employment and support allowance who spend two years on the Work programme, the latest data suggest that the rate of failure to achieve sustained job outcomes is 93%: only 7% of those attached to the Work programme achieve a sustained job outcome.

In an earlier intervention, I asked my hon. Friend about the Government’s statement, in their response to the report, that their efforts to develop a tool have produced only 70% success. Of course it would be great if we could do better than 70%, but given that it is possible for people to change their stream after they have been streamed initially and that 70% success is certainly better than streaming people simply on the basis of what benefit they have been on, it seems to me that it strengthens the case for the Committee’s argument that it would be a worthwhile thing to do.

It would be the intention of a Labour Government, should one be elected next spring, to implement a segmentation tool as the Select Committee recommends. We would like to see it in place, again as the Committee recommends, in time for the commissioning of the Work programme’s successor. It will be possible, in designing that tool, to draw on the fantastic data that providers have gathered during their experience of the Work programme. There are now numerous rich data sets giving useful evidence about how much help individuals in a variety of circumstances need in order to get into work.

I welcome the report. The Committee has done the House and the cause of employment support a great service by providing it to us. Along with everyone here, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.