Police Pension Liabilities

Debate between Nick Hurd and Mohammad Yasin

Tuesday 6th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

My hon. Friend raises an important issue. Anyone who speaks to the police finds a consistent message from across the system: a growing frustration about the amount of time our police are spending supporting people on mental health issues—the estimate across the system is at least 25%. Some of that I would class as core policing but some of it is not, so we are working with PCCs to get the evidence base and establish what is good practice in terms of triaging some of this demand. Part of what I welcome in the Budget is the additional investment that this Government can now make in local mental health, and I am determined to ensure that one dividend from that investment is reduced demand on policing.

[Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab)]

In the past five weeks, three youths were stabbed, two fatally, and one 20-year-old man was shot dead in Bedford. Will the Minister support the bid from Bedfordshire’s police chief constable and the PCC for emergency extra funding from the police special grant before another young person is killed on our streets?

[Mr Hurd]

I was delighted to see the hon. Gentleman take part in the cross-sector summit we had on serious violence in Bedfordshire. What I said then was clear: we have received an application for exceptional funding and we expect to take a decision on that by the middle of the month. Our ability to meet that comes from the fact that we increased the contingency pot available in the Home Office for those situations, in a funding settlement that he and other Labour MPs voted against.

Police: Financial Sustainability

Debate between Nick Hurd and Mohammad Yasin

Wednesday 12th September 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I have received assiduous representations on that point from Lincolnshire MPs, the chief constable and the police and crime commissioner. Some work has been done on fair funding and more work needs to be done. I recognise that the Lincolnshire police force is stretched and challenged. We have done what we can to help in the short term. I give my commitment that I will continue to do what I can there, if that is what the evidence shows, but in the context of the CSR, which is the most important event in terms of framing the future of police funding for the next five years, I undertake that we will look again at the fair funding.

[Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab)]

The chief constable of Bedfordshire, Jon Boutcher, told me this morning that in his 35 years as a police officer he had never seen such a high demand on his force, yet he has to deal with this with fewer police officers than he had in 2010 and a £47 million budget cut. He simply cannot find enough officers to attend all the 999 calls. Our police force is at breaking point. When will the Minister’s Government admit that their funding formula is broken, understand what forces such as Bedfordshire are dealing with and give them the funding they need to protect the public?

[Mr Hurd]

I am in regular contact with Bedfordshire’s chief constable and the police and crime commissioner. I am extremely aware of their concerns, and we are doing more than listening. We have put an additional £3.2 million into Bedfordshire policing this year, and I have already signalled that we intend again to give PCCs flexibility over precepts in 2019-20. We are engaging with Bedfordshire about applications to the special grant pot, which we increased in the funding settlement that the hon. Gentleman voted against. We are serious about the work that needs to be done for the CSR, both in terms of increasing the resources available to the police and the fair allocation of the cake once it has been established.

Police Funding: Bedfordshire

Debate between Nick Hurd and Mohammad Yasin

Monday 13th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

I totally accept that point, and I think I said in my earlier remarks that we have to recognise the challenges specific to Bedfordshire police.

The “but” I was coming to, having said what I said about the decision to protect police funding, is that we recognise that the context is changing, although not necessarily dramatically. Since 2015, the state of the public finances remains very constrained, as my hon. Friend well knows. There is evidence that demand on the police is rising and changing. The police are having to spend more time on safeguarding the vulnerable and on responding to increased demand in areas of complexity, such as domestic violence, modern slavery and counter-terrorism, and as a Government we have to recognise that.

We also have to recognise that there are very real cost pressures on the police system, not least in the recent pay award. That is why, as my hon. Friend knows, since my appointment in June I have personally led a review of every single police force in England and Wales. I have spoken to or visited all 43 of them, including Bedfordshire, to make sure that, alongside the other work we are doing, the Government genuinely understand what is happening out there: the shifting demand on the police; how the police are responding to manage that demand; what their current plans are for improving efficiency and effectiveness, because that matters a great deal; and what their plans are for managing their reserves, which are considerable.

I recognise that Bedfordshire is using its reserves, and I recognise that, as a percentage of revenue, Bedfordshire’s reserves are below the national average, but across the police system something like £1.6 billion of public money is tied up in reserves. The public and the taxpayer deserve to know about those plans in a lot more detail than we have had in the past. That is part of the review process I am leading.

[Mohammad Yasin]

Two months ago, the chief constable said that he did not have enough resources to attend 999 calls and that, as a result, the people of Bedfordshire were not safe. Is it not now time for the Government to act urgently on the chief constable’s call for more funding so that the people of Bedfordshire are safe?

[Mr Hurd]

I am not a tribalist, but every time someone asks for more money, Labour’s answer is, “Yes. How much?” We will be more demanding in that respect, because we also act on behalf of the taxpayer. Public safety is priority No. 1 for any Government, and particularly for this Government, and although we are determined to make sure the police have the resources they need, we will continue to challenge them as to how they are using existing resources and how they can improve their efficiency and effectiveness ratings, as in the case of Bedfordshire, because that is what the public demand and deserve.

The point I am trying to elaborate is that the Government are listening. We recognise that the operating context has changed. There is a consistent message across the police system about that shift in demand and the strain on the system, and not just from Bedfordshire. That is why we are listening very carefully. We want to take decisions based on evidence not assertion, and those decisions will come before the House in the Government’s provisional grant settlement proposal, which I hope will come in early December. That will be the fruit of this review and the discussions we have had over many months with police leadership and the independent inspectorate to update our understanding of what is happening out there in terms of demand on the police system.

My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire has been very tenacious and persistent on this front, so let me reassure him that public safety is the Government’s No. 1 priority. We of course have a responsibility to make sure the police have the resources they need. We have a responsibility to adapt if we have a clear picture of what is happening out there in terms of shifts in demand and cost pressures. We are grateful to the police for their co-operation in that process. I ask for a little more patience from him on the long journey he has had since being elected here. I hope that before the end of the year we will be able to come to this House with proposals for the 2018-19 police funding settlement. We are absolutely determined to make sure that this country has the most effective and trusted police force in the world. That is what we want for this country and that is what we want for Bedfordshire.

Question put and agreed to.

Community Policing

Debate between Nick Hurd and Mohammad Yasin

Tuesday 7th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Ms Dorries. I join others in congratulating the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey), not only on securing the debate but on framing it in a typically thoughtful way.

I start by completely agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman about the importance of community policing. As constituency MPs, we all know what matters to our constituents. He quoted Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. I thought Matthew Scott, the police and crime commissioner for Kent, put it very well:

“Neighbourhood policing is fundamental to delivering policing in the county. By focusing on local problem solving, together with partners and local communities, it improves the quality of life within those communities, helps keep people safe, and importantly builds public confidence and trust.”

The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) also made the connection between local policing and the counter-terrorism effort, and he was right to do so.

Neighbourhood policing matters enormously, and I agree with the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton that it is obviously under a great deal of pressure at the moment. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) made a powerful case on behalf of Bedfordshire, which I know you will have listened to carefully, Ms Dorries. His example of Leighton Buzzard was powerful. The system is under a great deal of pressure. As the shadow Minister pointed out, we have a devolved system, so these are local decisions about how to allocate inevitably finite resources in very difficult circumstances.

However, I have to say to colleagues that, having just completed an exercise of speaking to or visiting every single one of the 43 forces in England and Wales, I am struck by the degree to which police and crime commissioners and police chiefs are absolutely determined to keep the community policing model as core business, as it were, and I join my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire in saluting Kathryn Holloway’s work in Bedfordshire. However, as a London MP, I am also pleased to note that the Met, in its business plan for 2017-18, states it will ring-fence 1,700 officers to neighbourhood policing, providing two officers and one police community support officer to all 629 wards.

It is also striking how much creativity police chiefs and PCCs are showing to challenge and redefine the local policing community model under very difficult circumstances. My hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) had some interesting ideas about parish policing, and across the system forces are looking again at the model. For example, Durham has had success in blending safeguarding teams with neighbourhood teams. The inspector rated Durham “outstanding” for effectiveness and efficiency, and noted that

“Neighbourhood policing remains the hub of the constabulary's problem-solving activity”.

There is a huge amount of effort across the system to maintain and improve the community policing model.

I agree with the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton that the system is very stretched, but I do not think it is broken. The local police chiefs, in my conversations with them, have made that point: they are very concerned about sustainability and stretch—that is very clear—but no one is saying this model is broken at this point.

[Mohammad Yasin]

I believe that the Bedfordshire police chief has written to the Minister and other Ministers, and has also met them. He is really concerned that the system in Bedfordshire is not working, and he is worried about the safety of people in Bedfordshire. Will the Minister urgently look into the funding of Bedfordshire police and meet the chief constable again?

[Mr Hurd]

I have been to Bedford, been on patrol in Bedford, sat down with the police chief and have had numerous conversations with the police and crime commissioner. I assure the people of Bedfordshire that the case for its policing is well understood, as it has been for years; my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire has been a tireless champion of this cause.

The context has changed. My hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk reminded the House that we are still in an environment in which public finances remain constrained; we know the reality of that and so do the police chiefs. This is what we have to manage our way through. However, we are also in a situation in which the operating context has changed in a striking way in recent years. The right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton is right that demand on the police has risen, but it has also shifted. As the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East mentioned, we have seen the escalation of the terrorist threat.

We have also seen a big increase in digitally enabled crime and increases in areas of high complexity, where frankly, as a society, we are now at long last turning over the stones. On modern slavery, sexual abuse and domestic violence, people are at long last coming forward, which we should welcome, but it means increased demands on police time in areas of greater complexity and required resource. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) said, an increasing amount of police time is being spent safeguarding the vulnerable, particularly those on the mental health spectrum.

That is the reality of modern policing that we must be sensitive and tuned to in this House, and it raises some powerful questions. First, are the Government on top of emerging crime? I could take the House in painstaking detail through all the new laws on knife crime, domestic violence and modern slavery. I am proud of what we are doing to try to stay on top of emerging crime, particularly in some of the murky areas where what we find when the stone is turned is very alarming in terms of the reality of life, particularly in some of our great cities. For example, I saw yesterday the statistics on modern slavery in Manchester, and they were very powerful.

In terms of what Government can do through regulation and law, I think we are on top of emerging crime. We have to ask ourselves whether the police have the resources they need, which I will turn to, but we also have, on behalf of the taxpayer, to continue to be rigorous in pushing the police and asking, “Are you making the best use of the resources you’ve got?” That is not just about efficiency. Police have done an incredibly impressive job over years on taking out unnecessary cost, but HMIC is very clear that there is more to go for, through procurement and collaboration. There is still opportunity.

There are questions about demand management and workforce planning, but there are also tough questions about whether we are really embracing the full power of technology, which can be transformational. I have seen in Lincolnshire and Surrey, and I saw yesterday in Manchester, the power of mobile working, game-changing technology such as body-worn video and changes to operating systems that give police much better information and therefore the scope to make better decisions. Those are areas where we will continue to probe and push the police and support them in their capability-building, to stay on top of this change.

In relation to resources, which is the focus of the debate, the reality is that this year, the taxpayer will be investing just over £11 billion in our police system, through direct force funding. That is an increase of just over £100 million on 2015. The way that that money shakes down is that some of it is held at the centre for strategic investment through vehicles such as the police transformation fund, where the taxpayer invests to upgrade the capability of the police and to fund innovation. Avon and Somerset police were a recent beneficiary of that funding, I am delighted to say.