Women Offenders and Older Prisoners

Debate between Nick de Bois and Elfyn Llwyd

Thursday 16th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Llwyd]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. Quite honestly, the work in some of the centres was so good that it was astonishing. I well remember the visit to Liverpool—I have had some contact with the manager since then, as it happens—as well as the experience of Belfast and other places. What is vital, of course, is that whatever the structure for the immediate future, such centres are brought into the core of the delivery of services. They make it possible not to send young women away, to keep them with their family units and to turn them around in the most remarkable way. The problem we have—I probably speak for all members of the Select Committee on this—is that there are so few of them to rely on. Alas, at this stage, some centres are suffering from financial pressure. However, there is no doubt at all that if the new landscape is to work, those centres must be major players in providing such vital services, whether on their own or in concert with others. I agree entirely with what the right hon. Gentleman said.

The Committee drew attention to the perverse incentives that will be given to private companies not to provide appropriate services for women under the new reforms, since such services are not always presented as measures to reduce reoffending but rather as more holistic and costly care. In their response, the Government did not exactly contradict that point. However, they did claim that there would be

“advantages for providers of offering sustained support to all offenders within a cohort…including those with more complex needs.”

Once again, we will have to wait and see how that plays out in practice. I have doubts, but I hope that I am wrong.

One of the principal things that the Committee wanted to point out was that the transforming rehabilitation agenda has clearly been designed with male offenders in mind. Women offenders are possibly an afterthought. We said:

“Funding arrangements for provision for women appear to be being shoehorned into the payment by results programme”.

We also warned of the danger of

“sentencers using short prison sentences as a gateway to support”,

which would completely undermine

“the post-Corston direction of travel”.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the fact that the Committee took evidence that suggested that the system had been designed with only men in mind. However, I would draw his attention to the fact that, under the transforming rehabilitation proposals, the use of innovative small providers might bring innovation and be a good influence on dealing with women offenders. I am not sure that the whole Committee shared the right hon. Gentleman’s view, but I accept that it was expressed strongly in evidence.

[Mr Llwyd]

The hon. Gentleman is an assiduous member of the Justice Committee. He and I do not share views on this particular agenda, but I accept what he says. The problem we have, however, is that the small providers to which he referred are currently withering on the vine. I can think of very few in north Wales that would actually be able to deliver. In some areas I am sure that what he said is right, but after all is said and done, the Bill is meant to cover the whole of England and Wales. I take his point. Yes, there is a role—for sure—for small providers. The problem is that there are too few of them.

[Nick de Bois]

I will use this opportunity to stress a point that I have repeatedly made in the Select Committee, for the Minister’s benefit. One of the ingredients for success of the new proposals will be that procurement allows for innovation and small providers. Some of those small providers who are struggling now may benefit if they are engaged on contracts that help to deliver the responses that the right hon. Gentleman wants.

[Mr Llwyd]

The hon. Gentleman’s point is very timely. The Minister has heard it, and I accept that it is an important point.

The Government have not agreed with our analysis of the post-Corston direction of travel. However, they have assured us that after contracts have been awarded, account managers within the Ministry of Justice will monitor the provision for female offenders. Hopefully, from time to time there will be reports, both to the Committee and to the House, on how these reforms play out.

Speaking of short-term sentences, one of the principal recommendations of Baroness Corston’s original report was that, because short-term prison sentences were doing more harm than good for most female offenders, community sentences should be awarded where appropriate. The Committee found that some improvement was being seen, albeit slow, but more than half of women sentenced to custody still received short sentences, during which it is virtually impossible to do anything with them. I was glad to see from the Government’s response that they are addressing that issue under the enhanced community provision workstream of its advisory board. The Government expect to

“establish an early adopter region”

where they can pilot

“the outcomes of early intervention with female offenders”.

The Government also noted that they would be producing

“awareness raising materials for decision-makers in the criminal justice system on the…needs of female offenders.”

Again, that is welcome. It is timely that we should be having this debate the day after the Report stage of the Offender Rehabilitation Bill. The efficacy, or otherwise, of many of the recommendations that our report makes will hinge on how those proposals are put into practice.

The Committee’s second report is on older prisoners. One of our main concerns was the extent to which much of the prison estate and its regimes were unadapted to the needs of older prisoners. On the visit to Dartmoor, for example, we found that a considerable amount of the Dartmoor estate was totally inaccessible to wheelchair users because the doors were too narrow. We found that absolutely unacceptable. However, we understand that Dartmoor is a listed building and, to be honest, there is very little that can be done. Nevertheless, it greatly concerned me and other members of the Committee that that should be the case.

We noted that the National Offender Management Service’s responsibility to provide for the physical adaptation of prisons to suit older prisoners’ needs is not being met universally; I have already given the example of Dartmoor. Our report said:

“We recommend that NOMS should conduct a comprehensive analysis of prisons’ physical compliance with disability discrimination and age equality laws.”

We also recommended that

“NOMS should determine which prisons simply are not able…to hold older prisoners and it should then no longer hold older or disabled prisoners in these institutions.”

I was glad to see that the Government agreed that such an analysis needed to take place and that they have committed to conducting an assessment of the current accommodation needs across the prison estate and of its suitability for prisoners with specific needs, reporting by the end of this year.

In principle, the Government have also agreed to keep the time spent by prisoners in unsuitable accommodation to an absolute minimum, which is clearly welcome. The Committee recommended that older prisoners should be assessed before entering prison, to ensure that their needs were met. In their response, the Government said that

“social care needs assessments will be the responsibility of local authorities”

after the provisions of the Care Bill come into force in 2015. I am not particularly satisfied with the lukewarm assertion that

“NOMS will work with NHS England to consider ways in which prisoners’ initial health assessments could lead to a referral”

and that the Government will

“explore whether age could reasonably mean that such a referral is automatic”.

These prisoners cannot be allowed to fall between two stools, and it is surely the Government’s responsibility to ensure that they do not do so.

I would also like some clarification about what the situation will be for older prisoners in the prison estate in Wales, who will rely on NHS Wales, and for older prisoners from Wales who are incarcerated in England and who will consequently use the NHS in England.

One thing that has not emerged hitherto is that the largest increase in the prison population is in the over-55 cohort. For various reasons—historical sex abuse is a prominent one, but there are many others—that is the growth area in terms of prison numbers. Therefore, the treatment of older prisoners is an urgent issue, which should be addressed with due priority.

We wanted to stress that older prisoners should be able to use their time in prison as productively as younger prisoners, if they so wish, and that NOMS should put in place older prisoner policies in every prison, to provide for age-specific regimes for this cohort. The Government refused to concede that latter point, and I am afraid that I do not agree with their assertion that

“A requirement for every prison to have an older prisoner policy detailing age specific regimes would reduce the ability of prison governors to provide regimes which reflect the actual and specific needs of prisoners.”

I do not think that promising that

“NOMS will explore opportunities to adapt regimes in prisons where the needs of the population require it”

goes far enough to address this problem. Prisoners will fall through the cracks if a uniform policy is not adopted across the prisons estate.

I was glad that the Government accepted in principle the Committee’s recommendation that there should be enhanced training of staff in the mental health care needs of older prisoners. Once again, however, the Government have said that

“NOMS will look to work with NHS England developing training packages”,

and I would be grateful to know what discussions the Government will have with the Welsh Government to ensure that work is co-ordinated, so that no older prisoners miss out on this provision.

I shall make a few comments about how our recommendations about the resettlement of older prisoners were received. In our report, we praised the resettlement services in HMP Dartmoor and Isle of Wight, mainly because they provided comprehensive resettlement and care plans for older prisoners. We suggested that NOMS should roll out such services in all prisons where there is an existing population of older prisoners. The Government again said that, in light of the passing of the Care Bill, local authorities would have a responsibility to provide a care plan in those circumstances and that NOMS would work with local authorities to support that process. Again, I would like clarification about how that will work with regard to Welsh older prisoners, whether they are incarcerated in England or in Wales.

Finally, we said that it was imperative that older prisoners were registered with a community GP after release into the community to ensure continuity of care. It is vital that services are linked up in that fashion. In their response, the Government once again referred only to NHS England, and I seek further information about what discussions the Government will have with the Welsh Government to ensure that adequate information is given to GPs in Wales about older prisoners when they are released, whether—as I have already said—they are incarcerated in Wales or in England.

I am sure that the Minister will respond in his usual assiduous manner to the various questions that I have put today. However, I need to place on record my apology, as I will not be here for the wind-ups; I have a televisual appointment later on this evening. I am grateful to you, Mr Bone, for allowing me to make this speech at this stage.

Home Affairs

Debate between Nick de Bois and Elfyn Llwyd

Thursday 9th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Llwyd]

If the hon. Lady had listened, she would have heard me say that I agree with the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire on this issue. I am not saying we should forget about it—[Interruption.] No, I am not. I understand that money is short, and I did not say that at all. The hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray) has completely misunderstood what I have said, but I do not think that anyone else has done so. I did not say that, but I am saying to her and to everyone outside the House that we need to detoxify the debate and sit down and discuss this issue in a clear-headed, proper manner. We must not dance to the UKIP tune at any time, now or in future.

A number of pieces of proposed legislation in the Queen’s Speech seem at first glance to be driven more by ideology than by common sense. I am particularly interested in the rehabilitation revolution, as it is known. We heard earlier that the probation service had recently acquired a gold medal for the excellence of its service. Now, however, we see evidence that those who have been in prison for 12 months or less are the cohort most likely to reoffend. That is something that we have all known for a long time, yet that cohort has never fallen within the ambit of the probation service’s work. It is little wonder, therefore, that those people reoffend, and something needs to be done. Not a great deal is being done to rehabilitate those people in prison, and once they are out, they are left without any assistance at all. On that, I agree with the Government.

My solution would be simpler, however. It would be to extend responsibility for those people to the probation service. They are the experts. They have been described today by the Secretary of State today as having “expertise and professionalism” and making “a vital contribution”. If that is so, why on earth do we have to bring in the privateers? Was G4S’s performance at the Olympics so brilliant that we now have to bring the company into the probation system?

[Nick de Bois]

I am grateful to a fellow member of the Justice Select Committee for giving way. He has just suggested that we try to have a sensible debate about this matter. Focusing on privateers is completely erroneous. For example, he knows well the St Giles Trust, a registered charity that does superb work on reforming and rehabilitating people. He must surely agree that this must not become a debate about privatisation.

[Mr Llwyd]

I often respect the views of the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that we debate issues in a constructive manner when we meet on the Justice Committee. Yes, of course there are people in the voluntary sector who can do this work, but I am concerned that many of those smaller entities will be unable to carry the capital risk, and that most of the work will go to G4S, to Serco and to all the rest of the robber barons who will be jumping in. They will be listening to this debate and eagerly awaiting their chance to enter the sector. I hope that they make a better job of it than they did of the Olympics; otherwise, we will have to get the Army in to do it.

I accept what the hon. Gentleman says; the third sector—the voluntary sector—does an excellent job. He and I recently visited a third sector institution up in Liverpool, Adelaide House, which is doing an excellent job. To the credit of the previous Government and this one, it is being funded directly, and that is absolutely right. Yes, there is a role for the voluntary sector, and if it is to expand into this area to do such work, I would have fewer objections. However, I question its capability and capacity to handle the capital risk involved.

I welcome the draft Wales Bill, as far as it goes. It will transfer powers over elections to the Welsh Government, introduce fixed five-year terms for the Assembly and overturn the ban on dual candidacy for Welsh elections. I must, however, express my profound disappointment that there was no slot in the Queen’s Speech for a full, proper government of Wales Bill. The pressing need for such legislation is quite obvious. As I am sure hon. Members will know, the Commission on Devolution in Wales, chaired by Paul Silk, recently published its first report, on the financial powers of the Welsh Assembly. It received broad cross-party support. It recommended that the Welsh Government should have control over minor taxes as well as job-creating levers and borrowing powers, so allowing the Welsh Government to raise and invest money in Wales’s public services and infrastructure, thereby improving the economy. The Silk report recommended that those levers be devolved as soon as was practical. Lest we forget, this Government have been effectively treading water for the past nine months or so, and have failed to bring forward any really important pieces of legislation. All things considered, there is surely a case for a legislative slot for such an important vehicle. We are already falling behind, and time is of the essence.

In the absence of a new government of Wales Bill, we as a party have drawn up our own list of Bills that we would like to see debated. That includes Bills devolving to the Welsh Government control over justice and policing, transport and energy powers and job-search functions. We also believe that we should introduce what we describe as an economic fairness Bill. Central to these proposals is our justice and policing (Wales) Bill, which would establish a separate legal jurisdiction for Wales, to correct the anomaly that Wales is at present probably the only country in the world that has a legislature, but no legal jurisdiction of its own to serve it. There is already a very substantial corpus juris establishing itself in Wales that does not have a jurisdiction to serve it, and the need for one is now urgent. It is becoming more pressing month by month.