HM Revenue and Customs

Debate between Nick de Bois and Charlie Elphicke

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

This is an important debate, because the evidence shows that businesses and people do better when taxes are simple and certain. Anyone who knows anything about business will know that people in business have to plan. They have to know where they stand and what the tax regime will be. That regime has to be as simple as possible, so that people can understand it and get their heads round it. That is fundamental to the consistency of the rule of law and the framework that enables business to thrive.

It is the same for individuals. I could tell hon. Members about the number of people who come to my surgery who have been stressed out of their minds by demands for £2,000 in tax that they simply do not have. That kind of demand weighs on them, giving them the gravest possible concern and taking over their lives, as they wonder how they will manage to make ends meet. I tend to intervene in those cases, because I can write to Dame Lesley, although I have to say that my experience has not been entirely the same as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel). I have found the Revenue quite helpful in giving people time to pay and helping them to understand that they can do so through their coding notice. Nevertheless, things should not be like that. We have heard time and again that the Revenue did not used to be like that. It is only in recent years that it has gone that way.

It is important that everyone in this country should pay their fair share of taxes, and that includes business. However, we also need to be careful not to make up phoney figures for the tax gap and make wild claims that it is £150 billion a year, when the Revenue itself has said clearly that it is no more than £40 billion.

I take issue with the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who is still in his place, when he says that it is somehow acceptable to have direct action campaigns against business for the amount of money that it might or might not owe. It is unacceptable to close down a business for a day and deny the people who work on the shop floor—people who are often not well paid—the chance to earn their living and go about their business in their ordinary way in their ordinary lives. It is wrong to do that, and in some cases taking part in such direct action campaigns amounts to a criminal offence, so I urge all Members not to take action that unlawfully impedes business, particularly if it is of a criminal nature.

I am a member not of the Treasury Committee or the Public Accounts Committee, but of the lowly Public Administration Committee, in which we look at paper clips and try to reflect on how administration can be improved. Looking at the careful and thoughtful work done by the Treasury Committee before the election, it is quite clear that the number of customer complaints has risen dramatically. It now stands at 87,179, so I ask where those complaints and problems are. That is how to deal with the issues arising. Call centre issues are important—the fact that we cannot eyeball someone or get our phone calls answered quickly. Complaints about office processing have risen by 38%, while complaints about online services have risen by an astonishing 181%. It is logical to focus on where the complaints arise and where the problems need to be dealt with.

Let me deal with the call centre issues. We know that 43% of phone calls were simply not answered in 2008-09—[Interruption.] That is a huge number of calls, as my hon. Friend the Member for Witham interjects from a sedentary position. We also know that 35% were not answered last year. That does not tell us how long it took to answer the calls that were answered. Oral evidence to the Treasury Committee suggested that it could be as long as 12 minutes—an extraordinary situation. One person providing evidence said that if he took 12 minutes to answer his phone calls, he would not be in business for long. There is clearly an issue about the efficiency and quality of call centres that needs to be looked at.

I do not condemn HMRC, as many of its officers and officials have worked very hard, but I do condemn the previous Government for using the expertise of these wretched consultants time and again to answer all their problems, instead of using the expertise that existed within two institutions with long, proud and successful histories.

I hope that the Exchequer Secretary who comes on deck at this moment will realise on the one hand that he is fortunate, as he cannot do any worse than his predecessors, but on the other hand that he faces a challenge and should take care not to sit on deck while the orchestra is playing and the water is flooding in through holes down below. I hope that he will be assiduous in looking at the issues and trying to sort out the administrative, policy and leadership issues in HMRC today—including the matter of political leadership.

I say that because the staff survey suggests that staff feel pretty wretched. We have heard that time and again, and no one seems to think that the HMRC is well managed. No one has much confidence in anyone and no one feels energised to go the extra mile. Most people do not have that much confidence in their line managers, but they have an awful lot more confidence in them than they do in the top leadership of the entire institution. It is pretty clear, then, that we need to focus on providing the political leadership and the organisational and managerial leadership to make HMRC a better place and, above all, to make it feel better about itself.

We also need to sort out the information technology. It is clear from the Treasury Committee report that, under the previous Government, IT was an unmitigated disaster. I have to describe the response from this Government, who had only just come to office, as Panglossian. It was one of the poorest responses that I have ever seen. I do not blame the Minister, because this was back in June when the Government had only just been formed, but I urge him to take much greater control. I hope that he will take the policy side of his Department by the scruff of the neck.

Commenting on the disaster of the call centres, the Government’s response was that

“six of the seven indicators have improved from baseline and therefore exceeds HMT’s definition of ‘strong progress’.”

The Government seemed to suggest that everything was just marvellous. They went on about how wonderful the call centre answering record was, and I do not think that that is acceptable. The Government do not seem to have been in touch with the reality of the situation.

When asked about the disaster of morale, the Government went into management-speak worthy of the former director-general of the BBC. They talked of creating

“a working environment which motivates and develops our people to give of their best and take pride”.

Whenever we hear mission statements of that kind, we have a sinking feeling that the consultants have crept in through the back door and started to charge a lot of money and ruin an organisation. I hope that the emphasis will change, and that the Government will instead say, “We are going to inspire people, and give them back their sense of pride and responsibility at ground-floor level.” That will enable those people to make real advances and exercise responsibility at every level, rather than returning to the dreadful tick-box culture that has grown up over the past 10 years.

As for IT, we know that it is a disaster. The Exchequer Secretary had to come to the House in the autumn and say that it was a disaster. I must say that he was very forthright and honest with the House, and dealt with the situation superbly. The earlier Panglossian response had been:

“The robustness of HMRC’s IT systems continues to improve, however the scale of the operation, and the amount of legacy systems, is such that this is a journey of continuous improvement and not overnight change.”

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

From “ghastly” to “poor”.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Indeed.

I believe that the Exchequer Secretary is a very fine Minister who will, in time, become one of the ablest Ministers to have graced this or any Government. Let me end my speech by urging him to grab this issue by the scruff of the neck. I urge him not to knock the officers of HMRC who work so hard but to inspire them, make them feel better about themselves, and allow them to take charge and do really well—to provide a great call centre service, a great online service, and the great service in general that HMRC used to provide before it was ruined, particularly in the last decade.

European Union Bill

Debate between Nick de Bois and Charlie Elphicke

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) is much concerned about Members from all parts of the House being under the control of the Whips. For my part, I would like to say how much I agree with—

[Nick de Bois]

With the Whips.

[Charlie Elphicke]

With the Prime Minister. In particular, I agree with his speech on 4 November 2009, in which he said:

“We must be sure that the measures included in the Lisbon Treaty will not bring creeping control over our criminal justice system by EU judges. We will want to prevent EU judges gaining steadily greater control over our criminal justice system by negotiating an arrangement which would protect it. That will mean limiting the European Court of Justice’s jurisdiction over criminal law to its pre-Lisbon level, and ensuring that only British authorities can initiate criminal investigations in Britain.”

I would like to put on the record how much I agree with that position, and how much I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). Why are we discussing further opt-ins in this Committee, when we should be considering how to recapture a sense of control and our national way of life in relation to the criminal justice system?