Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mike Penning and Nicholas Brown

Monday 5th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)]

16. Whether her Department plans to devolve police oversight functions to city mayors outside London.

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall answer questions 2 and 16 together.

Police and crime commissioners have brought direct accountability and localism to policing in this country, and, as we have seen in London, incorporating the role of the PCC in mayoral devolution has worked really well, especially under this excellent London Mayor.

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[Mike Penning]

No; the police and crime commissioners are doing an excellent job. They bring accountability. The only bid to incorporate the PCC role at the moment is the bid from Manchester, and I look forward to seeing it working on the ground.

[Mr Nicholas Brown]

How will these arrangements work in the north-east of England, which has one economic zone—incorporating Durham, Northumberland and Tyne and Wear—but two police authorities and two police and crime commissioners? Does the Home Office propose to merge the police authorities and their commissioners or to transfer their functions to a new individual?

[Mike Penning]

It is entirely up to the local community to decide what it wants. If we look at other parts of the country, we can see that West Mercia and Warwickshire are working closely together. If the police authorities in the right hon. Gentleman’s area wanted to merge, they would need to put their business plan to us. It is not only the big cities that could come together; such proposals could involve rural areas as well.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mike Penning and Nicholas Brown

Tuesday 9th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

I am obviously very aware of the NSPCC’s campaign, not least because, quite rightly, I am signing an awful lot of letters for colleagues at the moment. I have also, in these early days, already met the chief executive and chairman of the NSPCC. We are coming to the end of a pilot of remote video evidence and I am waiting for the evidence of how it has worked. I would like to roll it out as fast as possible, if the evidence shows—as I think it will—that it should be.

[Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)]

5. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of governance and security at HMP Northumberland.

Payment Scheme (Mesothelioma)

Debate between Mike Penning and Nicholas Brown

Monday 17th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

The move will take the payment up to some £126,000, which represents an extra £13,000. That is in addition to the payment of £7,000 for legal fees, which will be introduced in separate regulations. When Ministers promise the House that they will listen, it is important that they try to do what is requested of them. I stuck rigidly to 75%, because I was not confident that there would be enough money in the fund to increase payments to 80%, let alone 100%. However, I am now confident that there is enough capacity to move to 80%, so when the scheme starts—I hope that that will be on 6 April—all those affected will receive 80%, even though we have been looking at 75%

[Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation, and I admire what he has done in getting us to 80%. In truth, compensation ought to be at 100%. Sufferers feel 100% of the injury, and the industry took 100% of the premiums at a time when it believed that it would often have to compensate for pleural plaques as well as for mesothelioma. I hope that the matter is not closed and there will be an opportunity to discuss it again.

[Mike Penning]

I would be amazed if we did not discuss the matter again, as we have done over the years. It would be right and proper for us to do so. If we raise compensation payments to 80%, many people will receive more than they would have done through a civil court. The payment is an average, so some people would have received less in the civil courts. By raising the level from 75% to 80%, we have ensured that more people will receive more than they would have done if they had found their employer or their employer’s insurer.

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[Mr Brown]

My hon. Friend and constituency neighbour is absolutely right. The effects of this horrible condition can be with a victim for decades, but once full-blown mesothelioma has been diagnosed, life expectancy is extremely short. It is no accident that the north-east of England is disproportionately represented on the Opposition Benches today, because we represent people who are in the older tranche of victims. I know that I do not need to explain this to the Minister. I am talking about people who worked in heavy engineering, shipbuilding and ship repair, people who sprayed carriages with asbestos, and thermal insulation laggers. Members of that generation were the victims of those industries. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) pointed out, the new victims will be teachers who have been scraping on asbestos-based boards, school caretakers and janitors who have breathed in asbestos from insulation that is flaking because it has not been properly lagged, and builders who have carried out occasional repairs without being properly protected against the asbestos that they were drilling into, and have generated dust.

[Mike Penning]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to say that there has been a disproportionate effect in the north-east in particular because of the heavy industry there, and to mention many of the organisations involved. However, in such cases it is relatively easy to trace the victims’ employers, because they are large companies in large industries. This scheme is intended to cover cases in which we cannot find the employers, and hence the insurers, who are legally responsible. That is why it is a scheme of last resort. As for the right hon. Gentleman’s other point, I think it is absolutely right for us to help, because the scheme will not work if a large number of people resort to it when they could have claimed elsewhere. We need to help them to obtain compensation from the source from which they deserve it.

[Mr Brown]

I agree with the Minister that in the public sector it should be easier to trace a responsible insurer, and indeed a responsible employer, but there is a rich history of subcontracting, even in the public sector, and not all these people have insurers who maintain liability. It is the missing insurer, as well as the missing contracting or subcontracting company, who generates the cases with which this last-resort scheme is intended to deal.

The Minister is right to anticipate more public sector cases in the future. I have asked the Department of Health how many mesothelioma cases were being dealt with in England by the Department, and that number of cases, as you of all people will well know, Madam Deputy Speaker, is a precursor to the number of compensation claims that there will be—if, that is, the injury was inflicted through work. The House will be distressed to learn that the number is still rising. The number identified by the Department is now over 7,000 a year, and that is not a very easy fit with the projection of the number of fatalities coming from the Department via the Health and Safety Executive.

[Mr Brown]

Like my hon. Friend, I stand up for every single individual who has been exposed to asbestos. This is an entirely preventable condition. Although I understand why in law we draw the distinctions we do, morally this is not right. We should set out to save each and every one of the citizens we represent from being exposed to this awful condition. That applies to young children, too. My hon. Friend will recall me referring to the young children who found a pile of asbestos just lying in a yard in Leeds, and who threw it at each other as if it were snowballs. Of course, the inevitable happened, and 40 years later they are coming down with mesothelioma, but whom do they sue?

[Mike Penning]

As I said on Report, I think, and certainly in the Committee stage of the Mesothelioma Bill, I hope this is the start of a fund of last resort in other areas as well. What the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and the right hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) are alluding to is a public liability area, not liability for employers. It is absolutely right that we should try to protect everybody, but sadly I think I have gone as far as I can within the scope of the regulations and the scheme before us.

[Mr Brown]

I welcome what the Minister says. If any Minister could take this forward in government, he would be the Minister to do so. I thank him for what he has done, and welcome what is in front of us tonight.

Mesothelioma Bill [Lords]

Debate between Mike Penning and Nicholas Brown

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Brown]

I agree 100% with the hon. Gentleman, who represents a community in Northern Ireland with exactly the same history as that of the former Swan Hunter shipyard workers and others whom I represent. We have a common cause in this regard. A lot of help is given by the trade unions in the shipyards—the cases involving Short’s and Harland and Wolff are exactly the same as those involving Swan Hunter—but even with that help, the balance of advantage remains with those who know the insurance industry. Those with links to the relevant trade associations have the resources to find out whether the insurers still exist, and can find that information pretty quickly these days. Some work has been done to try to improve that process, and I am grateful for the efforts made by our Government and the present one to ensure that that continues.

The principal objection to the payment of 100% compensation is that it would break the agreement that the Minister has made with the industry. I know that he does not take offence when people like me say that a lot of premiums have been taken to insure against things that the industry is now not going to have to pay out on. It would pay out if I had my way, but the law established in 2007 says that it need not do so. The pleural plaques judgment has meant that the industry is the beneficiary of the premiums that it has taken in relation to pleural plaques, although not to mesothelioma, because the cause of action has been struck down. I think I am right in saying that that does not apply in Scotland or Northern Ireland, although it certainly does in England.

[Mike Penning]

I apologise for not intervening on the right hon. Gentleman earlier before he moved on to this point. I completely agree that it is spurious to argue that 100% compensation would act as an incentive. That suggestion has come from other parties, but certainly not from the Government. I want to place on record that that is not the Government’s position.

[Mr Brown]

I am grateful to the Minister for that intervention, and for its tone. The incentivisation argument is a distasteful one, and I am glad that the Government are not associating themselves with it. That makes it clear that the argument is about affordability within the parameters of the scheme.

I accept that the case for 100% compensation cannot convincingly be made, even by me, if the test is affordability within the parameters of the scheme. Amendment 1 proposes a figure of 80%, and whether that would be affordable within the parameters of the scheme is a finer point. I am not giving in, however. I believe that the victims deserve 100% compensation, but I understand that, if the Government are saying that the test should be the parameters of the negotiated scheme, we will have to maximise the money available to the victims within those parameters. We have all used the useful chart produced by the Minister’s Department as the factual background to the debate. The outcome will depend on whether we factor the percentages over four years or whether we take a longer, 10-year view. The Minister will not be surprised to hear that I take the longer view because I want the victims to have more money.

In determining whether the proposals are affordable within the parameters of the scheme, the Minister needs to explain two points. First, he must explain why 80% compensation would not be affordable, on his own figures. My submission is that it would be if it were spread over a longer time period and therefore cost less per year. The second point involves the cost of lawyers. This is set out in regulations, and the Minister is right to say that it should not be in the Bill itself, but the legal costs are going to have to be met. The estimate was £2,000 per case, but the figure then rose to £7,000. It is not clear which is the right figure. I do not want to mislead anyone; the cost will not come out of the money awarded to the victim, but it will come out of the overall cost of the scheme. The question of whether the cost is £2,000 or £7,000, or somewhere in between, will therefore make a difference. Will the Minister tell us what the correct figure is?

[Mike Penning]

The figure is £7,000, and the right hon. Gentleman is right to say that the figure comes out of the overall cost of the scheme—out of the 3%. If the claimant pays less than that figure, they keep the difference—thus, it becomes part of their compensation. We discussed the reason why the figure moved in Committee and in the Lords: it was felt that £2,000 was too low and so people would not get the sort of legal advice they needed. We desperately did not want the situation that had happened with other schemes whereby the legal teams got more money out of the compensation than that—that is why the figure is £7,000. In the negotiations I have been having, the feeling has been that the actual amount will be less, so the recipients or their loved ones will get the difference.

[Mr Brown]

I understand what the Minister is saying, and we all travel in hope—I certainly travel with him in hope. I hope this does not sound unduly cynical, but once the legal profession knows that a maximum of £7,000 is available for the cost of administering this, the work done and the effort put in by the individual law firms is likely to rise up towards the £7,000 ceiling. The Minister’s hope that simpler and more straightforward cases will confine themselves to a lower fee is correct, and I am with him on it, but I have the feeling that things will not work out that way. If they do not, there will be a cost on the scheme and so it will become harder to say, “We will put up the money for the victims” because the 3% ceiling will have been approached.

The second issue in this group of amendments is when the scheme should start. The Government’s proposal is to start it in 2012—backdating to the commencement of the Bill’s proceedings. My argument is that it should be backdated to the date of the consultation that led to the Bill. The consultation started under the previous Labour Government and was designed to meet exactly the same problem that the Government have identified. That consultation was on a slightly more generous scheme than this one, but of course the fruits of that consultation have not been heard and the discussions were only in their infancy when the general election interrupted proceedings.

It would be possible to make a case for a much earlier start date for a scheme of this nature. We could go back to the date of guilty knowledge for the industry as a whole, which would take us back before the second world war—if we were being really rigorous. There are certainly milestones in how our thinking has developed on these issues which go back a lot earlier than 2010. However, the Opposition Front-Bench team and I have put forward the most modest proposition that it would be possible to conceive of. We are saying that the start of consultation was the start of legitimate expectations in the minds of the victims who were being consulted and it put the industry on notice that there was to be a statutory scheme or that at least the then Government were contemplating such a scheme. This could not have come as a complete surprise to the industry.

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[Mr Brown]

I take it that when we are talking about “80 million” we are talking about money rather than about people—I know that there is a separate debate about immigration and so on.

[Mike Penning]

I apologise if I have misled anyone; I was talking about the funding parameters I am restricted by. The cost of taking the date back to when the consultation started would be £80 million. One other issue that we discussed in Committee was that although the consultation rightly contained an option that the then Government were looking at taking forward, there was also an option to do nothing. That is obviously an issue, but the big issue is the money.

[Mr Brown]

On that last point, I am more aware than anyone else in this place could be of the forces that would be in favour of the option to do nothing, and I have paid my tribute to the Minister for doing something rather than nothing. He should take pride in the job he has done, and I pay him all credit for it. That £80 million will be the top figure—it will be the highest possible figure that the officials believe they can give the Minister so that he can use it to dissuade the House. I am not entirely convinced by it. He cannot possibly know the real figure, because we will not know that until the cases come forward—it could well be a lot less. I would be willing to take a chance on it and to do justice to the victims. Let us stand the Minister’s argument on its head. He is inviting us to do the victims of this horrible disease—or, more likely, their families and dependants—out of £80 million. I do not want to do that, so I will want to put the proposition to the vote.