British Sign Language Bill

Debate between Mike Penning and Chloe Smith

3rd reading
Friday 18th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chloe Smith)]

May I again congratulate my new friend, the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper), on bringing forward this important Bill, and on the commitment and dedication that she has shown, and that she has role-modelled to us all, in championing British Sign Language? I want to emphasise that the Government are not only committed to this Bill, but proud to support it.

Today, Trafalgar Square is filled with BSL signers and members of the deaf community. They have gathered together to celebrate Sign Language Week and mark the 19th anniversary of the recognition of BSL as a language in its own right by the UK Government and in joyful anticipation of the Bill reaching its successful final stage in this House. They want to be part of the symphony.

Earlier this week, I had the pleasure of seeing a rehearsal from Deafinitely Theatre, the first deaf-launched and deaf-led professional theatre company in the UK, producing bilingual theatre in both BSL and spoken English. It was so inspiring to meet the directors and the cast and to see the welcoming space that they have created for deaf people and the bold space that they are challenging audiences with.

Last weekend, we saw sign language elevated again at the BAFTAs, with the film “CODA” winning two awards; the first film with a predominantly deaf cast to win an award, including the first BAFTA, as we have discussed, to go to a deaf actor. That film portrays some of the very challenges that we have been discussing during the passage of this Bill, including children stepping into an adult world to interpret for a parent. It also puts deaf people at the heart of a story about family and community.

Such moments are important. They raise awareness of the challenges faced not only by deaf people and the deaf community, but by deaf workers, in the form of actors, as well as by the sign language interpreters consulting for the film. Cast members learning sign language provide role models for young deaf people throughout our society. Recognising deaf culture in this way sends an important message to the deaf community: we see the challenges you face; we care about what you have to say; and you are a valued part of our society.

The theme for this year’s Sign Language Week is “BSL Bring Us Together” and it certainly does. I am delighted to see how Members across this House have come together to put the recognition of this rich and vibrant language into law and to pass a number of measures that, hopefully, will see an increase in the use of BSL across society.

I wish to place on record that the explanatory notes of the Bill will be updated to extend this recognition to tactile sign language, which is used and understood by some deafblind people, and to reflect the importance of BSL in deaf culture and community. We are all bound together by shared languages and that is especially so for BSL signers.

I wish to thank right hon. and hon. Members for the further issues that they have powerfully raised today, including, for example, that of prisoners and also some points very ably made about the current humanitarian crisis by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns).

Alongside the Bill, we are also developing a suite of non-statutory measures that will help promote and facilitate the use of BSL. These include: establishing a non-statutory advisory board of British Sign Language signers to advise the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on matters relating to BSL; examining how we might increase the number of BSL interpreters; reviewing how we might work in DWP to ensure the Access to Work fund better helps BSL signers; and considering how the Government can further facilitate and promote BSL usage.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Brendan Clarke-Smith) mentioned, I am also working with colleagues at the Department for Education to see what more can be done to accelerate the introduction of a BSL GCSE. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning), an absolute stalwart supporter of this work, said, this Bill is a means of doing more, and he is so right in that.

I would like to take a moment to deal with the four points put by the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Vicky Foxcroft). To begin with, she asked about data: what do we know about BSL signers.

The Government collect a variety of data on disabled people who have difficulty hearing, and their outcomes, drawing on the definition of disability as understood in the Equality Act and impairment type as collected in available data. The Office for National Statistics announced that it aims to publish the first results of the 2021 census this summer, which will have updated figures on BSL use. In addition, the Government have set out a comprehensive approach to improving its evidence on disabled people, including the BSL signing population. That encompasses: improving administrative and survey data across Government to ensure they reflect disabled people's needs and the barriers they experience; an annual survey to collect robust information on disabled people’s lived experience; monitoring of public perceptions towards disabled people; and building expertise on disability related evidence.

Moving on to the hon. Lady’s point about the board being non-statutory, that was covered in Committee, but I am happy to reiterate it here. As the hon. Member for West Lancashire made clear in Committee, a private Member’s Bill cannot create new public expenditure, so it is not possible for this Bill to create a statutory board, yet she and I agree wholeheartedly that BSL signers have a key role to play in advising the Government on how we can support them to lead fulfilling, independent lives. That is why, in spite of the constraint, I have pledged to create a new non-statutory board of BSL signers to make sure their views are central to progressing practical improvements—there I go, Mr Speaker, banging on the Dispatch Box as the hon. Lady has told us to do.

The new board will advise the Government on matters relating to BSL and of particular pertinence to deaf BSL signers, which will include helping to formulate the guidance under clause 3. I have instructed officials to consider the composition and remit of the board and will confirm the details by summer this year, when I hope to be able to seek nominations for members, who will be appointed by the Secretary of State for the Department for Work and Pensions. We are yet to determine the board’s terms of reference for the board, which might include publishing minutes and recommendations and we will involve the board of BSL signers in that process.

The third point of the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford touched on interpretation at covid press conferences. To be clear for the record, a judicial review on the matter found that the Government were meeting their obligations under the Equality Act for the covid briefings and have complied with the public sector equality duty. The court ruled that our policy of using on-screen BSL interpreters was lawful during the pandemic. There have been over 175 covid briefings to date, and only two were questioned because BSL was not provided on screen. The judge ruled that it is not a legal requirement to provide an in-person BSL interpreter, but we will continue to ensure provision of an on-screen interpreter. Our priority, like everyone’s in this Chamber, was to reach the largest-possible audience with important public information, and we will continue to ensure that BSL is made available in that regard.

The hon. Lady’s final point was about the particular wording of clause 1(2). I am a little disappointed that this matter has been brought up again on Third Reading as though it had not been dealt with in Committee and, indeed, on page 6 of the explanatory notes. It important to get it on the record today—in case we have to do this again—that we do not want to upset the balance of provisions in the Equality Act. I caution the hon. Lady about inciting anybody to tear down the Equality Act. Of course, I do not think that that is her intention, but that is where that line of logic could lead were she to use it again.

We must remember what a private Member’s Bill can achieve. The scope is limited, but none the less this is what such a Bill can achieve, and I do not think that someone would seek to tear down the Equality Act with a private Member’s Bill. Through the hon. Lady, I emphasise to Members of the other place who may be considering amendments that, at this stage in the Session, there is no time for amendments before Royal Assent. Without Royal Assent, there will be nothing, and I think our common aim is to pass this Bill and achieve something really important.

[Sir Mike Penning]

Perhaps I can say something on behalf of the House. It is not just those on the Treasury Bench who are saying to the other House, “Please do not table amendments—they will wreck the Bill”; it is this House that is saying that. We want this Bill on the statute book. If we delay it, it will not get on to the statute book, and that would be criminal.

[Chloe Smith]

I entirely endorse the point that my right hon. Friend has just underlined, which was made very clearly by the hon. Member for West Lancashire. It took an enormous amount of hard work, passion and perseverance to get us to this point, and we want to finish the job.

I am grateful for the constructive spirit in which everyone in the Chamber has worked to build cross-party consensus for the Bill. It will make real improvements to the communication options, and the lives, of deaf people. As has been said, however, even harder work is ahead of us. At this point I should thank my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) for reminding us that there is a head of steam behind the Bill.

Finally, let me thank all the campaigners—including those involved in the BSL Act Now! Campaign—who have worked tirelessly to get us to this point, alongside the hon. Member for West Lancashire, and thank Members on both sides of the House for their support. I hope we can all agree that today has been a victory for everyone involved, and also that there is more work to be done. I am proud of what we have achieved together with this Bill. We wish it well in the other place, and we look forward to the change that it will bring.

British Sign Language Bill

Debate between Mike Penning and Chloe Smith

Committee stage
Wednesday 23rd February 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Chloe Smith]

I am always delighted to discuss and debate matters to do with disability. Indeed, I note there is a debate in Westminster Hall tomorrow led by the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw. Unfortunately, I have a medical appointment and will not be able to attend myself. However, the point the hon. Member for Nottingham South makes is a good one and I will convey it to my colleagues—the Chief Whip and the Leader of the House—who will be delighted to see what they can do to ensure the Bill is properly effective, that Parliament does its part to ensure the Government and Departments fulfil the duties in the Bill, and that Parliament can underline the importance of BSL going forward, which we would all agree on.

Clause 3 places a duty on the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to issue guidance on the promotion and facilitation of BSL, which will be developed together with deaf BSL users as part of the non-statutory board. The guidance may include advice on reporting requirements, best practice for BSL communications and case studies to set out the value of BSL provision. I am keen to work with the board of BSL users and of course BSL users themselves to explore the best approaches, to ensure that the guidance is targeted at everyday interactions for deaf BSL users, and to ensure that the guidance helps service providers adhere to the requirements of the Equality Act 2010, particularly the duty to make reasonable adjustments and the public sector equality duty.

In addition, there are non-statutory measures that go even further to support British Sign Language users. This is right and proper. Some things we do in statute and some we do beyond statute, and together they make an effective package. To complement the approach set out in the Bill, therefore, we are developing a suite of non-statutory measures that will help to promote and facilitate the use of BSL. Those measures include: establishing the non-statutory advisory board of BSL users, which we have already discussed; examining how we might increase the number of BSL interpreters, which I know is a crucial issue in the community; reviewing and updating Access to Work products to ensure that they are fully accessible for all BSL users, and ensuring that BSL users are well informed about what Access to Work can do for them; and aiming to update the national disability strategy to facilitate and promote BSL usage. I will say a little more about each before the Committee rises.

I am committed to creating a non-statutory board that will represent a broad variety of BSL users, with the intention of advising the Government on matters relating to BSL, including helping to formulate the guidance set out in clause 3 of the Bill.

[Sir Mike Penning]

In the formulation of the board, it is fundamentally important that BSL users and the charities are involved, but there are those outside who say, “No, this is too difficult to do”, so we need some outside influence as well. If we are not careful, it could become slightly too insular with regards to why we can or cannot do this. It is important that we have the right people on the board, but people from outside the community might also be important.

[Chloe Smith]

I am grateful for those remarks and for those made by my right hon. Friend on Second Reading about the need to widen the board’s membership beyond the bigger charities. I also acknowledge the point made by the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford that it is really important to work with a range of people and organisations that can best convey the needs of disabled people. I have already said that I want to make sure that BSL users themselves are central to the board. I cannot put it any simpler than that.

I have already asked officials in the Department to look at the composition and remit of the board. I hope to be able to confirm details in the summer and then seek nominations for members, who will be appointed by the Secretary of State.

Let me turn to the matter of increasing the number of BSL interpreters. made this point in a letter to hon. Members. I have worked closely with the hon. Member for West Lancashire, and we have agreed that the Bill will recognise BSL, with the objective of increasing access to BSL interpretation. We therefore need to look behind the scenes to ensure that we have the right capacity to support BSL users.

I also mentioned in the list of non-statutory measures Access to Work. I am committed to making sure Access to Work is widely known. It is sometimes thought of as a well-kept secret, but it should not be. All of us want Access to Work to be widely understood, widely adopted and known to prospective employees and employers. That is critical, and it goes alongside the work we are doing with the Bill.

I will touch again on the national disability strategy and how that links to the Bill. The strategy was published in July 2021 and aims to improve disabled people’s everyday lives. It sets out a wide-ranging set of practical actions. We are committed to taking those actions and to making society work better and fairer. That is critical in the context of this Bill. It is why we want to facilitate and promote BSL usage, and to do so through the work on the national disability strategy.

Voter ID Pilots

Debate between Mike Penning and Chloe Smith

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chloe Smith]

No, it is not. As I have set out, every council that participates in the pilots will make ID arrangements that are free of charge. That is as the House would expect it to be. Frankly, if the situation were as the hon. Gentleman describes it, I would agree with him, but it is not. He is simply not giving an accurate picture of the pilots. Crucially, the 10 pilots, which are being done in slightly different ways across the country, are operating a broader list of ID than only driving licences or passports, and as I have emphasised, there will be a free-of-charge alternative. What I would say to his constituents and to anybody else who is listening is that they need not have that concern. This policy has been well planned, with them at its heart.

[Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker—it all comes to those who wait. I was here in 2003, not in the Chamber but up in the Press Gallery, and I listened to the Labour Minister explain why there needed to be voter ID in Northern Ireland. There was a debate in the Chamber at that time. I do not think that that Government could be called right-wing—it was led by Tony Blair, so it could not possibly have been right-wing. At the end of the day, has that been a huge success in Northern Ireland? I can say as a former Minister of State for Northern Ireland, yes it has. Why is it different in Northern Ireland? Why can we not protect votes from being stolen in England, Scotland and Wales?

[Chloe Smith]

That is absolutely right. My right hon. Friend helpfully reminds us of the history of how we got to this place, and I am grateful to him for placing it on the record. He makes the crucial point that this is about protecting voters. Why should it be acceptable for a voter potentially to be subject to having their vote stolen? That would be a dreadful crime—it is hardly some kind of victimless crime. It is a crime that, unfortunately, does happen in this country, although not in large numbers. That means that we have to act. These are the actions of a responsible Government to make sure that voters have their voice protected.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mike Penning and Chloe Smith

Monday 16th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)]

Norwich airport in my constituency suffered a minor cyber-attack on its website last week. First, will the Minister join me in encouraging businesses to check their defences? Secondly, will he redouble his efforts to ensure that we are safe from cyber-terrorism in the light of the callous attacks, about which we are all agreed?

[Mike Penning]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. As I said, we have a responsibility personally, but so do companies. We are working very closely with the banks in particular, but all companies have a responsibility to protect the data they hold, particularly individuals’ personal data.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mike Penning and Chloe Smith

Tuesday 23rd June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the issue of mandatory minimums is devolved to Northern Ireland, but we will continue to look into it very carefully. I am pleased to say that last Thursday I met David Ford, Northern Ireland’s Justice Minister, and the Deputy Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. The matter was also discussed during the Anglo-Irish summit in Dublin.

[Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)]

6. What steps he is taking to increase the recruitment of prison officers.