Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Monday 4th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

14. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the Government’s levelling-up policies at reducing regional inequalities.

[The Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Michael Gove)]

A lot done, a lot still to do, but certainly much more than the Scottish Government.

[Patrick Grady]

In that case, can the Secretary of State tell us whether Scotland will receive more or less funding to tackle regional inequality than it would have received if we had done as 78% of voters in my constituency did and voted to remain in the European Union?

[Michael Gove]

We are doing better outside the European Union. If we had followed the hon. Gentleman’s advice and remained in the European Union, we would have found that the fishing industry was decimated by the common fisheries policy and we would not have had the opportunity to invest in new levelling-up partnerships in Argyll and Bute, the Western Isles, Dundee and, of course, the west central belt. This UK Government are intervening where the Scottish Government cannot to support local government in Scotland, which is why whenever I address the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, I get a warmer welcome than the First Minister of Scotland does.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Monday 10th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

11. What assessment he has made of the strength of the Union.

[The Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Michael Gove)]

The Union, and support for the Union, is strong, and I was delighted to note that, in the most recent opinion polls, support for independence in Scotland is plummeting.

[Patrick Grady]

That is a very interesting definition of “plummeting”, when that support consistently remains higher than it was in the independence referendum of 2014. We were told during that campaign and afterwards that Scotland would have one of the most powerful wee devolved sub-state legislatures in the entire world, if not the universe, so what is the Government’s baseline for that? Can the Secretary of State give us some examples of Parliaments that are more or less powerful than the Scottish Parliament?

[Michael Gove]

I would just note that, at the referendum to which the hon. Member refers, support for independence was at 45%, but it is currently at 37% in the polls, and 37 is eight less than 45. More broadly, the Scottish Parliament has significant powers. It is a pity that the Scottish Government do not use them and, unfortunately, as a result Scotland’s people are let down when it comes to education, where Scotland is tumbling down. Scotland, sadly, does not have the reforms that we have had in England, which have seen us rise up international league tables. It used to be the case that Scotland’s education system was the pride of the globe, but it is now England that has the best readers of the western world.

--- Later in debate ---

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State says that the Scottish Government are not using the powers that they have, but it is his Government who keep vetoing Scottish Government policies and legislation that has been passed by the Scottish Parliament. Does that not just show that the Conservatives never wanted devolution in the first place and can now barely contain their glee at getting to roll back the powers of devolution?

[Michael Gove]

No, it was the Scottish National party that did not want devolution; it wants independence. It is in the name, isn’t it? They are nationalists and they want to break up the United Kingdom; we extend devolution within England and we support it in Scotland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Monday 5th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

1. Whether he has had discussions with (a) Cabinet colleagues and (b) the Scottish Government on an opt-out under the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 for the Scottish Government’s deposit return scheme.

[The Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Michael Gove)]

It is nice to see you in your place, Mr Speaker, particularly after the FA cup weekend, when the blues beat the reds again.

[Michael Gove]

I appreciate that. It just shows that even though the reds had a good run, in another contest the blues managed to out-class them in the end.

I have regular discussions with Cabinet and devolved Administration colleagues on our shared ambition to deliver the priorities of the people of Scotland. That includes the drive to increase recycling across the UK, while also addressing the needs of businesses within our shared internal market for drinks manufacturing.

[Patrick Grady]

I am reminded of the old adage that had the Scottish National party invented the lightbulb, the Secretary of State would call it a dangerous anti-candle conspiracy. The reality is that in 1997, his party’s manifesto opposed devolution. It said it would

“create strains which could well pull apart the Union”

and

“would risk rivalry and conflict between these parliaments and assemblies and the parliament at Westminster.”

His 2019 manifesto committed to a

“deposit return scheme to incentivise people to recycle plastic and glass.”

Why is he working so hard to fulfil the vision of 1997, and not his commitment of 2019?

Levelling Up

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Absolutely. I had the opportunity, thanks to my hon. Friend, to visit Cheadle and indeed other parts of Greater Manchester just a fortnight ago. Thanks to her advocacy, I was also able to meet some of the business figures most interested in making sure that innovation in Manchester succeeds, and I want to continue to work with them because the business voice is critical to the success of the north-west.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

How are people in Scotland supposed to see the UK Government making spending and policy decisions in areas that are supposed to be devolved as anything other than a power grab?

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Gentleman is a graduate of Glasgow University—

[Patrick Grady]

Strathclyde!

[Michael Gove]

Oh, the hon. Gentleman did not make it to Glasgow—never mind. He is a graduate of another great university in Glasgow. We are investing money in that university to recognise that the constituency he represents has incredibly talented young people, and we want them to succeed, just like him.

European Union (Future Relationship) Bill

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 30th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove)]

It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves). While we disagree on much, she gave a characteristically thoughtful and punchy speech, and she is a great credit to her party. I wish her and her family well as they wrestle with covid.

I thank you, Mr Speaker, the staff of the House of Commons and everyone who has allowed us to come back for this debate today. I also thank the negotiators on both sides who concluded this historic agreement: Lord Frost and his team; and Michel Barnier and his. I thank the thousands of civil servants who have been working for years now to bring us to this moment.

I thank everyone who has spoken in this debate—some 59 Members. In particular, I want to pay tribute to those who have been arguing for our sovereign future outside the European Union for many years, in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), and my right hon. Friends the Members for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) and for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson). Again, our hearts go out to Owen and to his family.

I also want to thank those who argued in the referendum that we should remain in the European Union, but who, in this debate, gave considered and thoughtful speeches expressing their support for the deal in front of us and clear pointers for the way forward. My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), the right hon. Members for Warley (John Spellar) and for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) and my hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat) all made impressive speeches, recognising the importance of democracy.

Democracy is why we are here. In the 2016 referendum, more people voted to leave the European Union than have ever voted for any proposition in our history. Now, four and a half years later, we can say that we have kept faith with the people. This deal takes back control of our laws, our borders and our waters, and also guarantees tariff-free and quota-free access to the European market as well as ensuring our security. It is a good deal for aviation, for haulage, for data, and for legal and financial services, and it leaves us as sovereign equals with the EU.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Will the Minister give way?

EU Withdrawal Agreement

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Wednesday 9th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend has had a brilliant business career, and he is absolutely right: we need to negotiate toughly and be prepared to be flexible in certain circumstances but know ultimately what we want. As we heard from the Leader of the Opposition earlier, I am afraid that when it comes to Brexit, we still do not know what Labour wants.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

If Brexit is shaping up to be such a success, why is it that four and a half years after the referendum, no other European country is seeking to follow the UK out the door? Why are they not looking at these deals being negotiated with envy and thinking that they want a piece of the action? In fact, what is happening is that countries such as Scotland are looking at the European Union and deciding that that is where they want their future to be. It is the United Kingdom that is being left isolated.

[Michael Gove]

What a remarkable rewriting of history. Just yesterday I was watching CNN, and I saw an amazing 91-year-old gentleman called Martin Kenyon—one of the first people in the world to be vaccinated, and he was vaccinated here in the United Kingdom. It is because of the United Kingdom’s superb regulatory work, our vaccine taskforce, our NHS and our Health Secretary that the first people in the world to be vaccinated were here in the United Kingdom. There are vaccines in Scotland thanks to the UK. The rest of the world is looking on in admiration at our British NHS. On today of all days, it would be nice—and, to be fair, lots of Scottish nationalist Ministers have made this point—to acknowledge that the UK Government have been working in the interests of everyone, and people have been looking at Britain and saying, “That’s great.”

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Thursday 20th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Intense and productive discussions, but it is also important to recognise that a majority of Labour MPs and Scottish National party MPs support Heathrow expansion.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State has answered this several times, but it bears asking again: is it still his contention that other European Union countries are looking enviously at this Government’s efforts to leave the EU?

[Michael Gove]

Increasingly enviously, and I think it is the case that other European Union countries, many of which I love, are looking enviously at the gallimaufry of talent that exists on the Government Benches at this time. I suspect that those other European Union countries appreciate the festival of democracy in which we are currently engaged.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Thursday 28th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Does the Secretary of State still believe, as he has told me twice already, that other European countries are looking enviously at the United Kingdom’s attempts to withdraw from the European Union?

[Michael Gove]

Other European countries are looking enviously at the United Kingdom Government and piteously at the Scottish Government, whose contortions on constitutional questions continue to lead other European statesmen to wonder why a great country with so many talented people is in the hands of such a parcel of rogues.

UK’s Withdrawal from the European Union

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Wednesday 13th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

rose—

[Michael Gove]

What I am not happy to do is to allow the time of this House, when there are so many other serious speakers who want to make their points, to be absorbed by repetitious and self-serving chicanery from the representatives on the SNP Benches.

I wish to turn to one other proposition that has been put forward as an alternative, and that is the position of the official Opposition, which, while not shaped by an amendment today, is their policy, which is that we should be members of a customs union. What is striking about the position that they put forward for the customs union is that they say that, in that customs union, we should be able to offer businesses state aid, which we are not able to offer in the EU. Well, that would be illegal. They also say that we should have a voice in that customs union in the EU’s negotiation of trade deals. Well, no such voice for any member of the customs union who is not a member of the EU exists. They also say that we should have independent trade remedies separate from those that the EU provides.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Thursday 21st February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is a wish expressed across the House—and, indeed, given effect in one or two of the proposed amendments to the Agriculture Bill—that we do everything we can to ensure that the high-quality environmental and animal welfare standards that characterise British food production will be protected in the future, and that is absolutely the Government’s determined intention.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State told me a few weeks ago that he believed that other European countries would be looking enviously at the United Kingdom’s withdrawal agreement and its attempts to leave the European Union. Is that still his position?

[Michael Gove]

Yes—even more so today than three weeks ago.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Thursday 10th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Yes, it absolutely will be independent. There will be an opportunity for the House to engage in pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill that will give effect to that body.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Is the Secretary of State not concerned that, if the deal delivers such a glorious future for the United Kingdom, all the other member states of the European Union will look enviously on it and the integrity of the European Union itself will be challenged? Everybody will want a better deal than membership, which we currently have and, by definition, has to be the best possible relationship with the EU.

[Michael Gove]

It will be for other countries to decide, but yes, I think other countries will be envious of our position. For the sake of argument, I think some Italian politicians will look at our ability to have quota-free and tariff-free access to their markets and yet to be outside the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, have full control of our borders and pay no money, and ask themselves, “Why is it that the UK has a better deal?” It will be for them to make their own judgments, but people under-appreciate the strength of the position that this deal puts Britain in for the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Thursday 26th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

We want to make sure that, as is the case at the moment, farmers in Wales—indeed, farmers under all the devolved Administrations—receive more money than would be strictly the case under the Barnett formula. It is appropriate that they should continue to do so, because of the unique nature of the landscapes they farm.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

I do not think that anyone disagrees that there might be a need for common frameworks, but I do not think they would disagree either that democratic decisions by democratically elected Parliaments are artificial barriers, so will the Secretary of State guarantee that no frameworks will be imposed across the UK without the democratic consent of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly?

[Michael Gove]

That is a good try, but the hon. Gentleman knows that the stark contrast between the constructive approach of the Labour Administration in Cardiff and the obstructive approach of the nationalist Administration in Holyrood does not redound to the credit of the Scottish National party. The truth is that the SNP has only one policy, which is separation. Everything else is tactics and they are prepared to throw Scottish farmers under the bus—[Interruption]—or, indeed, the bandwagon in their desperate desire to elevate the destruction of the United Kingdom above the creation of wealth for the people of Scotland.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Committee: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 7th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have every right to continue to question them; after all, as I said earlier, this is what they wanted. They wanted Parliament to regain its sovereign status.

[Michael Gove]

rose—

[Patrick Grady]

Let us hear from him.

[Michael Gove]

As ever, the hon. Gentleman is making an impressive speech, but I should say one thing—

[Michael Gove]

I should, actually—just the one. Why is it that Scotland now has to import scientists and engineers when in the 19th and early 20th century we used to export them? Is it anything to do with the drop in international league table rankings for science and mathematics that has occurred under the Scottish National party’s stewardship of the education system?

[Patrick Grady]

First, I am not convinced that the words “import” and “export” are the right ones to use when we are talking about human beings—some of the most capable and talented human beings in the world. [Interruption.] Secondly, I hear my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows), who is on the Education Committee, saying, “So is the rest of the United Kingdom.” Finally, we want to welcome people to Scotland. If the Government want to devolve immigration policy to us as part of the Brexit process, they should feel free to. As has been pointed out many times in these debates, the right hon. Gentleman himself has said that immigration policy should come to Scotland so that we can attract the brightest and the best, and we are not afraid to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Patrick Grady]

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. Again, we will continue to push the Government on that. I hope that the Minister will have some time to respond to some of these important points. I have spent a lot of time in exchanges with him in Westminster Hall, which perhaps should be renamed “Brexit Minister Hall” in due course once the Brexit process has been completed.

[Michael Gove]

Will the hon. Gentleman enlighten us? Has any impact assessment ever been undertaken by the Scottish Government of the impact of their education policies on participation in higher education, particularly given that the most recent statistics demonstrate that the Scottish Government’s policies—

--- Later in debate ---

[Patrick Grady]

I think we need to continue looking at the various proposals.

[Michael Gove]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Patrick Grady]

I think we have heard enough from the former Justice Secretary for now.

The point made by the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) is exactly what amendment 70 touches on. It calls on the Chancellor to publish an impact assessment on his Department’s responsibilities. The responsibility of the Treasury will change quite significantly. As we heard from the Brexiteers throughout the campaign, the Treasury currently channels all this money into the European Union. It is going to have to reabsorb that money and have the structures to apportion it back out to lots of different Government Departments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Patrick Grady]

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has clearly not read the amendment. The amendment calls for the Foreign Secretary to publish an impact assessment that will include, but not exclusively, his relationships with the Department for Exiting the European Union.

Amendment 72—perhaps the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) will want to intervene on this—calls on the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to publish an impact assessment on his responsibilities. The Scottish Government are seeking to give people in Scotland reassurances that they are allowed live and work here.

[Michael Gove]

rose—

[Patrick Grady]

No, I am not giving way.

One of the key agreements of the UK’s renegotiation in earlier years was that the UK would be able to establish a four-year period before non-UK EU nationals have access to in-work benefits such as tax credits, child benefit and housing benefit. It is unclear whether the new deal that is done with the EU will enable the UK to impose such restrictions. The Scottish Government did not approve of the proposal and would want to seek different arrangements if they could. Again, there is a question about whether these powers will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. There were only two pages—

[Michael Gove]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Patrick Grady]

No, I am not giving way to the right hon. Gentleman.

The token total of two pages on securing rights for EU nationals is telling about the UK Government’s real priorities.

Amendment 73 calls for the Secretary of State for International Trade to publish an impact assessment on his Department’s responsibilities. Trade policy is currently under EU competence, and leaving the EU single market and customs union would mean that it fell under the responsibility of the UK Government. The Secretary of State therefore needs to outline how his Department is going to make use of its new competence over trade policy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Patrick Grady]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is why we have tabled amendments calling for impact assessments.

Amendment 76 calls on the Secretary of State for International Development to publish an impact assessment on her Department’s responsibilities. Again, we need clarity and a full commitment to 0.7% of gross national income going to overseas development. That is similar to the amendment in my name, amendment 58, which I have already spoken about.

Amendment 77 calls on the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to publish an impact assessment.

[Michael Gove]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Patrick Grady]

No—which is exactly what the right hon. Gentleman said to me on Second Reading.

The UK Government need to clarify what involvement the EU’s digital single market, which is vital for supporting highly paid jobs in an exciting growth sector, will have. They have been completely silent on the digital single market, which will be one of the most important sectors of our economy—like tourism, which also comes under the remit of the DCMS. Approximately 20,000 EU nationals work in Scotland’s hospitality sector—12% of the total. What will be the impact on them?

Amendment 79 calls for the Chancellor to publish a report on matters relating to the pensions of UK nationals living and working in the European Union. Again, that is an area of great uncertainty, and I have heard about it from my own constituents. Some 400,000 UK nationals living in the EU receive a pension from the United Kingdom Government, and they are incredibly concerned about the impact of Brexit. The Government have done nothing to reassure them.

Amendment 80, one of the most important, calls on the Government to publish an equality impact assessment. We heard earlier from the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) about the whole range of minority and interest groups in our society—faith groups, LGBT groups and so on—that are completely absent from the UK Government’s White Paper. That is why it is important that we hear about them in an impact assessment.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Michael Gove and Patrick Grady

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) (Con)]

May I begin by saying how grateful I am, and I am sure many other Members are, to both the High Court and the Supreme Court for their rulings which ensure that this Bill comes in front of the House of Commons today? As has been pointed out by our judges, not least by Lord Justice Laws in the “metric martyrs” case, the original European Communities Act 1972 was a constitutional statute of such significance that it and its provisions can only be changed by legislation, and I am glad that the Government have brought forward this Bill. The 1972 Act is so significant because, uniquely, it allows laws made outside this House to have a direct effect on the law of this land. That means that laws that are framed, designed and shaped by individuals whom we have never elected and whom we cannot remove have a sovereign ability to dictate what is legal and illegal in this House.

I have listened with respect and interest to all those, including the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), who have stressed the importance of parliamentary scrutiny, but where were they in the period between 1972 and now, when literally thousands of laws were imposed on the people of this country not only without scrutiny but without debate, without votes and without the possibility of amendment or rejection? I have to say that those people are pretty late coming to the democratic party now.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Michael Gove]

No.

In talking about democracy, it is vital, as was pointed out in the brilliant speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin), that we do not attempt to revisit the decision that the British people made last year. I thought it was instructive that the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg), was so dismissive of the result and of the debate during the referendum campaign. A previous leader of the Liberal Democrat party said on referendum night:

“In. Out. When the British people have spoken you do what they command. Either you believe in democracy or you don’t. When democracy speaks we obey. All of us do…Any people who retreat into ‘we’re coming back for a second one’—they don’t believe in democracy.”

It is a tragedy that the party that is called Liberal Democrat is scarcely liberal and, now, anti-democratic.

It would be harmful for our democracy at a time when we are all concerned about the rise of raucous populism—[Interruption.] I note the response from Scottish National party Members, who are the prime traders in raucous populism and the politics of division. If we were now to reject the considered decision of 17.4 million of our fellow citizens, we would only feed the disaffection with the democratic process that has led to unfortunate results in other countries. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset was right when he said that we should respect the result and honour the mandate.

A number of people are now asking for White Papers, scrutiny and greater clarity, but we have already had the promise of a White Paper, and a 6,000-word speech from our Prime Minister. We have had clarity in all these issues. Those people will not take yes for an answer; they are seeking not clarity but obfuscation, delay and a dilution of the democratic mandate of the British people.