Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme

Meg Hillier Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I believe that the proposal that the Government have put before the House balances the constitutional needs and the protection of the individual complainants, but I make no criticism of those who have come to a different conclusion. I absolutely share his concern not only that we must ensure that people are not discouraged, but that we must all—in our own way, when we can and when it comes to us—encourage people to use these systems, because they are there to protect people who are vulnerable. That is very important.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

The tone of this debate is in the right direction, but I really do have concerns about a bully pulpit being used in this Chamber. Even if people are not named, there will be gossip and innuendo about who is being referred to. I hate to refer to this, Madam Deputy Speaker, but a predecessor of Mr Speaker, in a published book, named Members of this House. If people of position and power do that, what confidence will people have if we still have an open debate in this Chamber, even if people cannot be named?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Lady makes a very fair point. I think the answer is that not having a debate in this Chamber at the end of the process, subject to very strict rules, does not mean that people may not write books saying things that they should not say or that they may not use other opportunities within parliamentary privilege. It is the question of constraining what can be done within parliamentary privilege that is essential, which is why I believe that something that is controlled and clearly set out in the rules is, on balance, preferable to trying to prevent this House from debating. However, I understand that others come to a different conclusion on what is a serious level of constitutional change because of past behaviour that has besmirched the name of this House and of politics and politicians generally.

Taken together, the provisions have the effect of acting decisively to uphold the spirit of our efforts towards culture change, while respecting the traditions and requirements of our parliamentary democracy. They aim to build the confidence of complainants by ensuring that these matters will be treated with the sensitivity and professionalism that they deserve. We simply have to give people who feel that they have been abused the confidence that they need to come forward. Adopting Dame Laura Cox’s recommendation by establishing the independent panel of experts will help us to do that. I commend the motions to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I think it will, but that will obviously depend on the quality of the people that we appoint to it. I very much hope not only that the House will go through a thorough process to ensure that we get good people, but that good people around the country will seriously consider taking on this role, because it will probably be a fairly thankless task. We need to ensure that we have the right people.

I warmly commend the Leader of the House on bringing forward his motions today and on the way he has approached today’s debate and the discussions that have taken place over recent days. I should say, as Chair of the Standards Committee, that I have deliberately not spoken to any complainants, because it is perfectly possible that something might be coming to my Committee, and it would have been inappropriate for me to have done so. I have only one issue with the Leader of the House, which is about the one-hour debate, as he knows—hence the amendment that I have tabled. His motion 6 is effectively a sort of self-denying ordinance. It sort of says, “There are lots of things that you will not be able to address in the debate”, and I commend him for tabling it, but in the end you cannot be half-chaste. It is a bit like when you decide to give up chocolate for Lent. You cannot decide on Ash Wednesday to stock the fridge with chocolate, because that shows that you have not really decided that you are going to give up chocolate for Lent.

The point about a self-denying ordinance is that it has to be absolute, and in this case we have to declare an absolute self-denying ordinance in relation to debating a decision that has already been reached by an independent body, that has an appellate process within it, where all the evidence has been considered, where both sides of the argument have an equal opportunity to put their case, and where both sides have equal forces. That is not the case in a debate in the House of Commons, and many complainants would be frightened that they would be re-victimised—to use the word that was just used by the former Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for South Northamptonshire—and that they would be put through a second ordeal. Even words that the Speaker might allow, because they did not understand that it was a subtle way of getting a dig in, could be terribly, terribly wounding to an individual who had made a complaint. It is terribly easy in this small world to reveal what is meant to be confidential.

[Meg Hillier]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Chris Bryant]

I will not, if she does not mind, because I have very little time and I know others want to speak.

It is important that there is equality of forces when it comes to a process such as this, and I say to those who worry that non-elected people will be making decisions about whether somebody can be suspended or expelled from the House that that is already true. It is already true, for instance, of an election court, a criminal court that decides to give somebody a sentence of more than 12 months or, I think, a bankruptcy court.

I fully understand that we are making a very significant change to our constitutional process, but my amendment would simply mean that the motions would be taken forthwith. In 1910, Asquith was absolutely blind drunk at the Dispatch Box and nobody ever knew about it. Churchill wrote home to his wife Clemmie that it was

“only the persistent freemasonry of the House of Commons”

that meant it never became a scandal. That is the fear that many complainants would have. We must not have a debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

I commend the hon. Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) for that insightful contribution.

We are in a different place from where the constitution set us up to be. There is a line that, unfortunately, Members have crossed and transgressed in the past. That means that, if we have to clip the wings of our constitutional position, so be it. I listened very carefully to the right hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), and it is with some pain that I have come to that position too, but we need to consider the victims. I have had the privilege of being contacted by a number of victims. Some have done so face to face, but some have emailed me because their outlet was to leave this place, because that was the easiest thing to do. The impact on their lives has been immense.



We need to stand up and make this place transparent, proper and modern in the way that we employ people and that we treat people, and that means that we all individually need to step up. I reiterate, as I conclude, that it is important we actually stem this before it gets to the point of the independent panel. I would advocate again that we have properly paid, properly trained and properly accredited office managers or heads of office—whatever we want to call them—who call us out on the slightest transgression. Staff would have the confidence to go to them so that Members who are learning to manage staff, often for the first time, and who have often come from very different working environments, learn what is proper in this place.

If we cannot set the example of good employment practice and protection for people who call it out here, and good management—let us face it, sometimes staff may complain because they are asked to do something that they do not want to do, and vice versa; it is not always clear cut—what does it say? It is important that we manage our staff well, that we are trained to do that and that we have the mechanisms in place.

This is part of it, but it is only the beginning. I will of course be backing amendment (a) tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), because we cannot have a debate, as I mentioned in my intervention, where we refer to such things. For anyone who was wavering, I think the hon. Member for Newbury has nailed it.