Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Martin Docherty-Hughes and Julian Brazier

Monday 18th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Martin John Docherty (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

Will the Minister advise the House what impact a Brit exit, if there is one this year or next, would have on our armed services personnel currently in operations with the European Union overseas?

[Mr Brazier]

As far as I can see, none.

Defence Implementation Road Map

Debate between Martin Docherty-Hughes and Julian Brazier

Tuesday 10th November 2015 General Committees

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful to be under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Hanson. I want to take up the point about shipbuilding, because I represent a constituency that no longer has shipbuilding because of a closed UK market. Shipbuilding in my constituency has been annihilated in the past 40 years. What we have seen in the past couple of weeks is the German Government picking up our inability to take on capacity by assisting the Royal Navy. I am sure that the Minister will have something to say about that.

[Mr Brazier]

I am sorry: I did not understand the last part of the hon. Gentleman’s question. He is concerned about the structure of the shipping market, but I did not understand his point about Germany. Could he repeat it please?

[Martin John Docherty]

My point is that Germany has recently been helping the United Kingdom in terms of its naval production because we do not have the capacity to meet our own need.

[Mr Brazier]

This Government have freed up the funds to pay for a very substantial naval programme. We have a large-scale submarine programme and large-scale frigate programme. I myself visited—it is a little way away from the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, but by Scottish standards not that far—the Queen Elizabeth just before the Queen came to launch her; we have the Prince of Wales being built, too, and we have an offshore patrol vessel programme. This Government, by taking some extremely painful decisions on manpower, have ensured that we are able to afford a modern, huge, £160 billion equipment programme, of which warship building forms a very large part.

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful for the Minister’s answer, but that is only one part of the equation, because what the Germans are doing is helping us with our refuelling tankers. It does not answer the question about our inability to fill our own capacity. The Minister has not answered that question.

[Mr Brazier]

I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman wants me to say. Before I came into the House, I worked as a management consultant, and some of our clients were famous names, such as Swan Hunter, which no longer exists, except in the history books—it was not entirely my fault. The reality is that shipbuilding did not just go through a recession and a depression. The hon. Gentleman knows that all over the world, world-class shipbuilding facilities closed, and most of the shipbuilding in Europe was lost in the course of 30 or 40 years under Governments of all descriptions. Swan Hunter, 30 years ago, was a major producer of warships and had a strong tradition of producing merchant ships, but it does not exist any longer south of the border, so perhaps it is not among the hon. Gentleman’s interests. The fact is that we lost a lot of shipbuilding capacity. The way in which we ensure that we maintain the shipbuilding capacity that we still have is by having an active shipbuilding programme, and that is exactly what this Government are funding.

[Martin John Docherty]

rose—

[Martin John Docherty]

I am sorry, Mr Hanson, but of course I disagree with the Minister on this point. The point about the co-operation with Germany is that it is allowing us to meet our need. That needs to be recognised and we need to build on that partnership. The European Union, in any aspect of defence, is not a threat. My constituents are very clear on that. The biggest threat to our co-operation on defence with allies is the possible Brit exit next year.

[Mr Brazier]

I think that the hon. Gentleman is over-egging his point. The EU offers some valuable opportunities for us to deal with other countries, and I mentioned the anti-piracy patrol as an example. The EDA has produced a number of joint projects on issues such as certification, airworthiness, helicopter training and so on, which have freed up money. There is also a small element of dual-use research, which is of real value. However, to suggest somehow or other that the EU is the cornerstone of our defence, when it is manifestly obvious that it is NATO, seems very strange.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Brazier]

Thank you, Mr Hanson. I shall relay my hon. Friend’s suggestion immediately back to my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State.

[Martin John Docherty]

I do not know about anyone else, but I never thought I would hear a Committee talk about speed-dating and defence, but there is a first time for everything. Going back to the EDA and the document, the Defence Committee sees the EDA as

“pragmatic, cost-effective and results-orientated”.

As a matter of fact, in terms of national security and the national agenda, nations such as Norway are members of the EDA and not part of the European Union. I do not see why this last hurrah of the empire seems to be so problematic for the Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Brazier]

I hear what my hon. Friend says and I will come back to him later on his detailed points. I can only remind him that article 346, which is justiciable in the European Court of Justice—there have been a number of cases, although I believe there has not been a recent one—is something we have never been challenged on. It is, to put it mildly, something we would take a very tough line on if we ever were.

[Martin John Docherty]

I draw Members’ attention to page 71 of the documentation, which contains a letter from the Minister to the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash). It stipulates that

“as part of EU-NATO co-operation”—

I hope that Members take note—

“hybrid and strategic communications were prioritised, as part of an overall response to Russia and threats in the wider EU neighbourhood”.

I am sure the Minister agrees that the EDA’s programme and possible engagement in that process was more than welcome then, and I am sure Members will agree more than welcome in future. It is not a threat to our national security.

[Mr Brazier]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. He is right. There is a wider point, and I urge some of my colleagues, even those who are—I entirely respect their point of view—profoundly opposed to everything that comes out of Brussels, just to think about this one point. The issue with the Russians and Ukraine has to be seen on a whole spectrum, from the hard end right through to the soft end. NATO does not do things such as economic sanctions, so there are areas where we have to talk to our fellow members of the EU if we want action, and I have participated in some of those discussions. There is room for discussing issues that are on the edges of debate but outside the main NATO remit in a European context.