European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Mark Reckless and George Eustice

Monday 3rd September 2012 Commons Chamber

[George Eustice]

I think that there is a big difference between the fiscal compact that we vetoed last December and this particular one. Again, this comes back to the point about what is proportionate. By vetoing that fiscal compact, Britain was sending a clear signal that we were not going to be part of a wider decision at an EU level for those types of fiscal integration, because we were not affected. That approach was absolutely right on a number of levels. First, it showed that Britain was serious and that, on these issues, when we said we were going to do something, we meant it and we were ready to use a veto. That will help us when it comes to budget negotiations.

Secondly, by vetoing that particular treaty at an EU level, the Government managed to limit its scope, because it was, thus, necessarily just about the eurozone members and it cannot affect the UK. Had we signed up to that particular treaty, we would have faced all sorts of threats and demands, and people trying to put other agendas on the table. We would have had months and months of wrestling over things we did not want, before we would probably finally have had to veto it in any case, so I think that we did the right thing. However, I am just not convinced that such an approach is right in this instance, for the reasons I have set out. As I say, I think it would be disproportionate, as the ESM is not going to affect the UK; there is nothing that will expose us to future liabilities. Would it be right for us to stand in the way of countries that think that it is the right thing to do? There is a question of whether it is the right thing, but would it be right for us to stand in their way?

[Mark Reckless]

My hon. Friend refers to our having vetoed the fiscal compact, but is it not going ahead? Are we not acquiescing in the use of the European institutions to enforce it, just as proposed? How does that increase our credibility in budget negotiations?

[George Eustice]

I would hope that my hon. Friend agrees that it was right to use the veto. We need a bit of a culture change in the Foreign Office, as has been alluded to. Historically, there has been too much of a sense that we need to have a seat at the table at all costs. That has been a mistake, it has been the wrong approach and using the veto in that instance was right. I return to what I said about a veto not being proportionate in this case. As I said, my conclusion is probably and, given the subject, extraordinarily, closer to that of the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood)—this is a step forward from the position that we inherited from Labour and we should recognise that.

It is encouraging that the European Union Act 2011 has had an effect for the first time, as the proposal we are dealing with requires an Act of Parliament. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone made some comments about that legislation, but again we need to give credit where credit is due. It is a major step forward, as it puts the UK on a similar footing to countries such as Ireland and Denmark, in that it will trigger a referendum automatically where there are any transfers of power. None of the Maastricht, Nice and Amsterdam treaties would have been able to go through without triggering a referendum. Perhaps Conservative Members are sometimes guilty of underestimating the significance of that, because it is a major step forward and likely to force what my hon. Friend and I want, which is, at some point, a proper renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with Europe and a new settlement. I say that for the simple reason that other countries are pulling in a direction that we will not follow and the British public’s chance for the first time to say, “We will not follow” will force a new settlement and the sorts of negotiations that we want but that have eluded us for far too long.

--- Later in debate ---

[George Eustice]

It may come forward, but there will be better opportunities than this Bill to pick the moment to have that negotiation. This is not the Bill or the issue on which to say to other European countries, “Unless you give us a full-scale renegotiation, we are going to veto the proposal.” It is disproportionate to take that approach in this instance.

So much for the areas on which we disagree. I want to come on to some of the areas on which we are probably in agreement and to echo some of the points made. There is a big question about whether the ESM will be a solution to the crisis, or even part of one, and there is also doubt about whether there is any solution to the crisis gripping the eurozone. Although, as the Foreign Secretary said earlier, the polls in all the countries in the euro consistently show their wanting to stay in the currency, in reality they do not want to take the decisions or accept what the euro inevitably entails. That is where the real problem lies.

Let us consider Germany, for example. It is undoubtedly benefiting at the moment, almost freeloading on the other member states and enjoying a lower exchange rate than it would have if it had its own independent currency. The Germans have kidded themselves into believing that it is all down to German ingenuity and marvellous engineering, and granted they have made some improvements in their labour market and sorted out some of the structural problems in their economy in the past decade, but German industry is undoubtedly benefiting significantly from having a lower exchange rate than it would otherwise have. Meanwhile, countries such as Greece and Spain do not want to do what the euro entails in terms of fiscal discipline and so on. They have spent, borrowed a fortune and shown a complete lack of prudence over the past 10 years. Although such countries say that they want the euro, they do not want what the euro means, which is a real problem.

We should not stop member states trying to save the euro. If they want to save it and want to make that attempt, let us let them do it. I think the most likely scenario, however, is that the euro will be partially broken up and some member states will be allowed to leave it. Although I can understand that the Government would not want to entertain any such talk or to spook the markets by commenting on that idea—I do not expect the Minister will do so when he wraps up the debate—I hope that they are developing some serious contingency plans for handling a break-up of the euro, whether it is orderly or disorderly. Despite all the rhetoric when the euro was introduced about its ending volatility and being all about stability and stable growth, we might find that the conditions for stability and stable growth are best created by floating exchange rates, which can help countries adapt to shocks to their economies and changes in the world economy as well as to transition when things go wrong.

I was in the anti-euro no campaign and worked for it for four years, and I remember that a decade ago, when that debate was going on, many people who are now on the Opposition Benches—the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), who is no longer in his seat, was one of them—accused us Eurosceptics of putting our heads in the sand and of saying, “Stop the world, I want to get off.” Who are the people who have their heads in the sand today? Who is in denial about the realities, particularly the financial realities, of the world in which we live? The fact is that the euro was an incredibly stupid idea. It was introduced only through a triumph of political belligerence on the part of people such as Chancellor Kohl and François Mitterrand over economic reasoning.

Economists at the time pointed out all of the problems that have come home to roost. They warned that there was a lack of convergence and that that was not just about the cyclical convergence of one’s economy and the levels of growth but, more fundamentally, about structural convergence, the make-up of one’s industries and the differences between economies. They were ignored. They warned that we would get asymmetric shocks to the world economy that would hit some countries worse than others, which would cause tensions in the euro, but they were ignored. They warned that to work properly the euro would require fiscal union and fiscal integration, that it would require very painful long-term adjustments in the absence of an exchange rate that could help people through those adjustments, that countries on the periphery would face prolonged periods of high unemployment and would be forced to cut wages, and that we would have to accept large migrations of people within the European Union from deprived areas to areas that were succeeding under the euro. Those warnings have all come true, but they were all dismissed at the time.

The final thing that everybody pointed out when the euro was debated was that we needed political union to make the euro a success, so that there was clarity in decision making. That has been proved right, too, because despite the warning from those on the pro-euro side that we would not have a seat at the table, all we have at the moment is 17 member states around a table squabbling and unable to reach a clear and coherent decision. That is one reason the euro continues to limp forward.

We need to learn the lessons. Why were all those economists ignored? Why was there so much mindless, blind faith in the idea that the euro was somehow historically inevitable? We still see that from some Members on the pro-euro side. The lesson we must learn is that nothing is inevitable. It is not inevitable that the euro will survive, but nor is it inevitable that it will collapse. The idea of ever closer union is certainly not inevitable any more and it is not inevitable that Britain will always be alone as the only country on the outside talking sense. I think it is quite likely that we will gain allies and that our ideas will start to gain traction.

There was a failure under the previous Labour Government and the truth about new Labour is that an unquestioning pro-Europeanism was almost an article of faith. Anti-Europeanism was blamed for the fact that they were not elected during the 1980s and that association was targeted at people such as my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), with whom I have campaigned on this issue many times. That perspective on Europe was very unquestioning and unprincipled. It was simply a political line to take, with no intellectual rigour, and it led to Tony Blair and the previous Labour Government simply going with the flow on whatever emerged on the European agenda.

This Government have made a very good start. The European Union Act 2011 was much more significant than many people on the Government Benches give it credit for, but we need to develop it and to build on what has been achieved to forge a new doctrine for the future of the European Union. That doctrine must end the dogma of ever closer union and encourage the idea of a multi-tier Europe—a pick-and-choose Europe where countries are able to adopt the policies they want and withdraw from those that they do not like and do not work for them. Too often in the past, we faced the problem of people saying that we would not have enough allies to make a point because there were not enough countries to support us. We need to leave such attitudes behind, because unless we begin the debate now we will never end up in the right place. We should be articulating a proactive vision of an alternative European Union, which does not require deeper integration in one direction.

[Mark Reckless]

My hon. Friend says that unless we begin the debate now, we will not end up in the right place. Has not the debate been going on for more than 20 years? Is not a decision needed to give the British people a vote on whether or not we stay part of it?

[George Eustice]

My hon. Friend knows that my position on a referendum is that there should be one, but that it should be after a renegotiation, not before. I do not agree that we should have an in-or-out referendum on the European Union at this point. I think that we should negotiate new terms with Europe and then put them to the country in a referendum, because that is what the majority of people in this country would support and want. In having a referendum, we must not deny the majority of people in this country the choices they would make.

I agree with my hon. Friend that many of us have been having such a debate, but that position was not adopted by the previous Labour Government, for the reasons I have just explained. Their policy was to go with the flow and they simply took a line that meant accepting all things European as a political doctrine rather than holding any kind of coherent, rigorous view about what the European Union should become. We must get over the weakness and insecurity of the obsession with having a seat around the table and instead start to articulate some clear ideas about what we want the European Union to look like in the future. We should be clear that it is our European Union, too, and that we do not care whether we are in a minority initially in making some of those arguments.