Finance Bill

Debate between Mark Durkan and Mark Hoban

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

We have taken action to tackle the bonus culture by ensuring that the interests of shareholders and management are aligned and that where there is wrongdoing bonuses can be clawed back. That is a significant change that has happened since this Government came to office. In the same way that we are remedying the regulatory failures left behind by the previous Government, particularly by the shadow Chancellor, the inquiry set up into the fixing of LIBOR will ensure that in future LIBOR is regulated to fill the hole in the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 and ensure that there are criminal penalties for manipulating LIBOR—again, filling the hole left by the shadow Chancellor when he designed the regulatory system.

[Mark Durkan]

The Minister refers to what the Government have done since coming to office. What did the then Opposition suggest in the previous two Parliaments by way of concrete proposals on regulation or bonus culture or amendments to any of the flawed measures that the previous Government introduced?

[Mr Hoban]

When the previous Government brought forward the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, we voted against the decision to transfer the supervision of the banks from the Bank of England to the FSA. We are putting right that failure by the previous Government. We criticised the financial services reforms brought forward by the previous Government in the aftermath of the financial crisis. We said that they were tinkering around the edges and did not address the fundamental problems at the heart of regulation. The work that we did in opposition laid the foundations for a much tougher, more intrusive and more interventionist regulatory regime to tackle the problems left by the previous Government.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Mark Durkan and Mark Hoban

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mark Durkan]

rose—

[Mr Hoban]

I am trying to deal with the point that the hon. Gentleman made. It is clear that the bank payroll tax had a negligible impact on bonuses paid, whereas this Government’s action has led to bonus pools falling year on year. For example, RBS’s bonus pool fell by 40% compared with the previous year’s, and Barclays’ bonus pool was down by 25% compared with that in 2010. Real changes in remuneration practice are coming through as a result of measures that this Government have championed.

[Mark Durkan]

I wanted to ask about a previous point that the Minister made. He said that he hoped there would be shareholder activity to help to restrain bank bonuses. Would putting a bank payroll tax window into the permanent bank levy that the Government are introducing not be an aid to shareholders’ interests, because it would mean that the level of bank bonuses affected the overall levy that the bank was paying?

[Mr Hoban]

I think shareholders are well aware that bonus pools affect banks’ profitability and the amount that they are able to pay to their shareholders by way of dividends. I am demonstrating that the reforms that we have introduced since we have been in office have been far more effective in curbing behaviour in bank boardrooms than the bank payroll tax.

Let me deal now with youth unemployment, which is highlighted in the Labour amendment. The Government have introduced a wide range of measures to tackle the problem. We have improved the support that is available to jobseekers. We have introduced a more flexible jobseeker’s allowance regime better to support a jobseeker in the search for work. In June last year, we launched the Work programme, providing specialist support over the next five years to help to support the longer-term unemployed and help the most vulnerable jobseekers to keep in touch with the labour market. Later this year, we will run a pilot to find the best way to introduce a programme of enterprise loans to help young people to set up and grow their own business. We are taking other actions to tackle the problem.

We are strongly of the view that it is right that banks should make a fair contribution that reflects the risks they pose to the UK financial system and the wider economy. That is why we introduced the permanent bank levy—a move that Labour Members chose to disregard when they were in government. We need to balance fairness and competiveness and raise the revenue that we need. The actions that we are taking demonstrate that we have a clear strategy in place to enable economic recovery and create jobs. The bank levy is the right course of action. I ask the hon. Member for Pontypridd to withdraw his amendment, and I move that clause 209 and schedule 33 stand part of the Bill.

Royal Bank of Scotland (FSA Report)

Debate between Mark Durkan and Mark Hoban

Monday 12th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, because there was a culture, as documented in the report, that meant that directors on the board of RBS did not challenge the CEO sufficiently robustly. That needs to change. We also need to ensure that the incentive arrangements for directors are robust. Under the previous regime, bonuses could be paid out in cash straight away. Over the past couple of years, tougher rules have been put in place to defer bonuses, to make sure that they are paid in shares and to claw back bonuses where there has been failure. That is a tough regime in place and it should make sure that the incentives of directors are in line with those of shareholders.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

What are the issues inhibiting the Minister from making a clear commitment to strengthen legal powers so that action can be brought against directors of failed banks?

[Mr Hoban]

I understand the frustration expressed in the hon. Gentleman’s question. We need to look carefully at the proposals in Lord Turner’s report and we will have the opportunity to legislate in the Financial Services Bill, if appropriate, but the hon. Gentleman would not want me to engage in a knee-jerk response to a report that was only published first thing this morning. I want to ensure that we have the right measures in place, whether through company law or regulation, to ensure that we have good-quality people running such organisations.

Finance (No. 3) Bill

Debate between Mark Durkan and Mark Hoban

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

I listened carefully to that point, and the hon. Lady again demonstrated the problem that she is long on analysis, but short on solutions. She talked about excess profits, but of course there is a range of solutions for that, one of which is to increase competition in the market to force prices down. I am not sure that a windfall tax, which I think is what she is proposing, would have the impact that she expects.

[Mark Durkan]

The Financial Secretary suggests that taxation would inevitably be passed on to consumers, but Ministers insisted not so long ago that the North sea tax would not be passed on to consumers. The Chancellor himself was very clear that it would not, and that he had means and measures to ensure that it could not be. Many Government Members said that they were happy that consumers would not pay the VAT increase, because hard-pressed businesses would just have to absorb it. Why are the Government protecting the predatory credit sector?

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman needs to look carefully at the impact of tax in different sectors. Just because one rule applies to one sector does not mean that it applies to others. We know that there is real concern, for example, that if we forced excise duty up too high, people would resort to smuggling to evade it. The impact varies from tax to tax and from area to area, and we need to consider which measures will be effective.

There are broader concerns about how the Opposition want to use tax. As I said, tax is used to change behaviour from time to time, but it is a blunt instrument, and if it is not properly thought through it can lead to perverse outcomes. An increased rate of tax on lenders would not have any obviously positive impact on how consumers are treated. Studies from other areas show that lenders will find ways to circumnavigate regulations and pass costs on to borrowers. A different tax rate for those businesses would be detrimental to consumers and would raise the cost of providing credit to those who may be unable to access mainstream credit.

Members have a responsibility to take seriously the potential for such measures to drive lending underground. I am sure that no one in the House would like to see a rise in illegal loan sharking, which can so devastate lives. The risks to individuals’ financial and personal well-being would be increased by loan sharks, who do not follow regulations or take legal action when debts remain unpaid. They use whatever means they can to recover their money, often forcing borrowers into more debt, or much worse. The provision of short-term credit can prevent financial exclusion, and it has allowed more consumers to access credit in a regulated market.

A number of comments have been made about an interest rate cap. There were three separate reviews under the previous Administration that considered, among other things, price controls in the high-cost credit market in the UK. They all came to a similar conclusion—that introducing price controls may lead to unintended consequences that would not be beneficial to consumers. The OFT review found that

“introducing price controls would not be an appropriate solution to the particular concerns we have identified in this market”,

and that

“developing a system to enforce and monitor price controls or interest rate caps in the UK would be complex, expensive and difficult to administer”.

In Committee, the hon. Member for Walthamstow mentioned a recent European Commission study published at the start of this year, but it found that restrictions on interest rates could deny people access to small amounts of credit, do not reduce overall average interest rates and lead to increased fees and charges being imposed by lenders. The idea of a cap on the total cost of credit sounds appealing at first, but it would have its consequences.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Durkan and Mark Hoban

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we have made significant progress over the past year in getting the financial regulatory system back in good shape. Of course, the Opposition should remember that it was the shadow Chancellor who spent his time in office trumpeting the value of light-touch regulation across the world.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Will the Minister assure us that, in the context of his current work on regulation, the anomalous position of credit unions in Northern Ireland, which have much bigger memberships and funds than those in the rest of the UK but cannot offer the same range of services, will be addressed, along with industrial and provident societies in Northern Ireland, which are also in something of a regulatory black hole?

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Work is under way to look at the regulatory position of Northern Ireland credit unions.

Loans to Ireland Bill

Debate between Mark Durkan and Mark Hoban

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mark Durkan]

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) and the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), I found clause 2(4) a bit tortuous. However, I can see the problem with amendment 2, because if paragraphs (a) and (b) were removed and the subsection read only

“No report is required to be prepared or laid in relation to a period if…no amount of principal or interest in respect of an Irish loan is outstanding at the end of the period”,

the point at which the loan is finally discharged—when a final payment is made—could be the one point when a report would not be necessary, whereas I would have thought that that was the one point where a report would have been relevant and necessary.

I therefore understand why subsection (4) is framed as it is and why there is a conjunctive that covers all three parts. It is only when no payment is made, no sum is received, and nothing outstanding is due at the end of the period, that no report is made. Otherwise, if all three conditions are not satisfied, there will be a report, as I understand it. Given what Members have said about the scrutiny and oversight that they want the House to have, although subsection (4) reads tortuously it seems to stand, so I would not be persuaded by amendment 2.

[Mr Hoban]

I think the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) has a second career beckoning as a parliamentary draftsman. He has summed up the situation exceptionally well.

In subsection (4) all three paragraphs—(a), (b) and (c)—have to apply if no report is to be published. If amendment 2 were made, removing paragraphs (a) and (b), payments could have been made in the period but they would not be reported if there was no balance outstanding at the end. Therefore we must ensure that all three are true before we allow no report to be published. I hope that provides clarification.

I hope I am not seen by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) as someone who seeks to stonewall his inquiries, but having imposed a duty on the Treasury to report, it is right that that duty be extinguished when the loans are repaid; otherwise someone will say, “Yes, the loans have been repaid, but your Act requires you to make those reports.” It is right that the duty to report is extinguished when the loan has been repaid, and that is simply the purpose of—

Finance Ministers’ Meeting (Ireland)

Debate between Mark Durkan and Mark Hoban

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

Let me repeat the remarks that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made earlier today. To an extent, they reflect the concerns raised by my right hon. Friend. He said:

“Britain stands ready to support Ireland in the steps it needs to take.”

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Given that Chancellor Merkel’s comments have caused such turbulence in the bond market in the past week, I welcome the measured and respectful terms in which the Financial Secretary and the Government have addressed the crisis in Ireland. Does the Financial Secretary accept the judgment of EU Commissioner Olli Rehn? He said:

“In the case of Ireland in particular, we need to recall that sovereign debt has not been at the origin of the crisis. Rather, private debt has become public debt. The financial sector has misallocated resources in the economy and then stopped working. It needs reform.”

The problem does not apply only in Ireland. I remind the Financial Secretary that, if the national pension reserve fund is counted, Ireland’s debt to GDP ratio is not that far wide of the UK’s currently.

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The crisis is around the banking system in Ireland—it is not a fiscal crisis. Of course, we almost had to learn the lessons of failure to regulate the banking system. The Government therefore introduced radical reforms to strengthen the stability of the banking sector in the UK.

Equitable Life (Payments) Bill

Debate between Mark Durkan and Mark Hoban

Wednesday 10th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

When people made the decision on the information available to them, the relevant information was not in the public domain, and would not have affected their investment decision until September 1992. That is a clear, logical, sensible starting point, based on principles and on the ombudsman’s findings, for the maladministration, and that is the point from which we should calculate relative loss for policyholders.

[Mark Durkan]

The Minister is in danger of asking the Committee to accept the notion that customer ignorance can be a legislator’s excuse. That cannot be so. If the Minister is trying to say that what they did not know did them no harm, that is preposterous. They did not know, and they have suffered harm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hoban]

I was trying to make two points. First, those policyholders were excluded from the calculation of relative loss as a consequence of the ombudsman’s findings and her view on when maladministration had taken place. According to the example that I have given, they would not have suffered loss in any event. I am merely saying that, in my opinion, there is a strong case in principle for the exclusion of those policyholders, and in practical terms they have not suffered loss.

[Mark Durkan]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hoban]

I want to make some more progress.

The fact that with-profits annuitants who bought their annuities before 1 September 1992 have seen a reduction in the level of payments that they currently receive from their annuities is a result of poor investment market performance and the fact that their earlier annuity payments were artificially high. That was because of the structure of the policies that they bought, or because they received too much in the earlier years, as Equitable Life paid out more on a discretionary basis than it should have. Unlike the value of conventional annuities, the value of a with-profits annuity varies according to investment return. Although the reductions are regrettable, they are not instances of Government maladministration, and therefore Government should not be providing compensation for that group of policyholders.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Durkan]

If the right hon. Gentleman had been here for the debates on earlier amendments, he would know that I made no such excuses then. Indeed, in all previous debates, I have been very critical of the performance of previous Governments. We have both been the Finance Minister in Northern Ireland, as he says. When I held that position, I used the line, “I’m the Minister of Finance; I don’t suffer from depression but I am a carrier.” That is the effect: Treasury Ministers are put in that sort of position. They become aware of constraints and difficulties that they then have to put before everyone else and impose on them as well.

My point is not that Ministers were right or wrong to listen to the advice but that we, as a Committee, must choose whether to go along with the Bill and say that the scheme will proceed only according to Treasury lights or whether to say instead that it should go according to wider lights and be informed by the sort of considerations reflected in the various amendments that hon. Members have tabled and by the many good observations made by Members on both sides of the Committee. Either we want to trust the Treasury and leave the scheme entirely in its hands, with its considerations and constraints alone, or we want to honour the spirit of what we have all pledged to those who have lost out with Equitable Life and to act in the light of the sad experiences that we have heard about.

I commend the amendments to the Committee. I shall wait to hear what the Government say about their amendment, but it seems to reinforce the Treasury’s whip hand over the whole scheme.

[Mr Hoban]

I take the same view as the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) on the responsibility of Ministers. Civil servants provide advice but Ministers decide and act and we cannot ignore that responsibility. We have taken this matter very seriously and have sought, over the past six months, to drive through a speedy resolution to the problem. I echo the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) on tackling this matter.

On the amendments before us, the purpose of amendment 3 is to make the design and operational mechanism of the scheme “independent of government”. I understand the need for independence in the design of the payment scheme, which is why I established the Independent Commission on Equitable Life Payments. The commission’s advice will necessarily form the basis of the scheme’s design. It will advise on how best fairly to allocate payments among policyholders, with the exception of with-profits annuitants, and it will consider which groups, if any, should be prioritised. It is right that that process should be independent, so the scheme will be independently designed.

The Government have considered whether the scheme should also be operated independently of the Government, as amendment 3 proposes, and have concluded that that would not be appropriate for three key reasons. First, it would delay the commencement of payments. Our ambition is to start making payments in the middle of next year using our preferred delivery partner National Savings and Investment. I shall say more about that on amendment 6. If amendment 3 were accepted, NS&I, which is an Executive agency of the Treasury, could not be used as the delivery partner as it would not be operating independently of the Treasury, which would therefore have to establish a new, independent body or identify an existing such body that could operate the scheme. It is also likely that legislation would be required to task the independent body with the design and operation of the scheme, which would delay significantly the making of payments to policyholders.

Secondly, the Government have established an independent commission to advise on the allocation of payments. This function is independent of the Government and is key in determining a fair allocation of payments. Making the operational delivery provider, whose job is largely about sending out the payments and making sure that cheques get to the people who are entitled to receive them, independent of the Treasury would not add significant value to that task.

Finally, it is important to ensure that value for money is considered when deciding on a delivery partner. The Treasury has satisfied itself that NS&I has the capacity and the capability to deliver the scheme, while at the same time providing value for money. The Government consider that by establishing the Independent Commission on Equitable Life Payments on 22 July, we achieved the aim that is at the heart of the amendment.

I turn to amendment 4 and what policyholders should do if they consider that they are not being treated fairly under the scheme. The Government are committed to treating policyholders fairly. In line with that, there will certainly be a means by which policyholders can raise concerns about the incorrect application of scheme rules to individual cases. We have given much thought to how best to deal with complaints and have made a great deal of progress in putting together a process that is fair and thorough. Full details of this process will be included in the document that sets out the scheme design in full.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and it is vital that we are able to operationalise, as it were, the scheme design. That is why I have encouraged the payments commission to engage with NS&I to ensure that the scheme that the commission designs can be delivered. That is an important part of the process, and I expect the commission to do that during the course of its work. I think that addresses the hon. Gentleman’s point.

Let me turn finally to new clause 1 and the status of the independent commission. I have already spoken about the importance of the work of the commission, and I am not sure that the new clause, which would give it statutory footing, would add value to its work.

[Mark Durkan]

Returning to amendment 6, can the Minister assure us that it is there only to provide proper statutory cover to the director of savings and NS&I in relation to the scheme, and not to extend Treasury control or constraints in relation to it?

[Mr Hoban]

I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. We could not use NS&I if we did not include this power in the Bill. Its purpose is to enable NS&I to act as a delivery partner, not to give the Treasury some way of reaching back into the payments scheme. I reassure him, and others, that the power is there merely to deliver the outcome of the scheme.

The role of the payments commission will be key. It will advise on the distribution of payments to those other than WPAs, and I will take its advice extremely seriously. The new clause would introduce a requirement for the commission to consult key bodies in the development of its advice, but let me tell my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) that it would need no statutory encouragement to do so. The commission has already met Equitable Life and EMAG, and it has published a discussion paper asking for more views on the guiding principles for determining fairness in allocating and prioritising the funding. I do not believe that an amendment to the Bill would make it any more consultative and thorough in its task. My hon. Friend is aware that I have made the commitment to go along to the all-party group with the chairman of the commission to engage with parliamentarians on this matter. That is a very clear sign of the way in which we want to engage, or the commission wants to engage, with stakeholders to come up with the best design for the scheme. I encourage people to read and engage with the commission’s discussion paper, too.

The new clause would also introduce a statutory duty for the Government to lay the design of the scheme before Parliament in the form of a statutory instrument in order to allow full scrutiny. I entirely understand the thinking behind this, and transparency has been at the heart of our approach to developing the payments scheme. However, as I have said, I will publish and lay before Parliament a document setting out the scheme design in detail, which may then be debated as Parliament chooses. Again, I do not think that a statutory requirement will make my commitment to full transparency any stronger. The Government therefore resist the new clause.

Furthermore, including provision in the Bill as to the status and operation of the independent commission would pose a very serious risk to the timetable of the commission. The commission is already in operation and has been since July, and it is due to report at the end of January. Notwithstanding the speed with which the House is dealing with the Bill, it will still take several weeks for it to finish its passage through this House and the other place. If the commission had to be reformed after the Bill received Royal Assent, to restart its deliberations so as to comply with the provisions of the new clause, there would be a real risk of delay to its advice. This would, in turn, delay the making of payments to policyholders—something that I am sure none of us would want to happen. In the light of this, and given the comfort that I hope I have provided on the operation of the commission, I invite the hon. Member to withdraw his amendment.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Durkan and Mark Hoban

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

In a speech last night to the bankers, the Financial Secretary referred to the Government’s proposals on a financial activities tax. Is it the Government’s intention that that sort of proposed legislation is just in reserve in case the bankers are too generous with themselves with bonuses, or are the Government determined to introduce such a tax? Why not go further, with a full financial transactions tax?

[Mr Hoban]

The Government are committed to tackling unacceptable bonuses in the financial sector, and we have put forward a series of proposals on that. We have talked about increasing the disclosure of remuneration, we have asked the Financial Services Authority to examine ways in which the link between risk and remuneration can be investigated, and we are taking forward work on the financial activities tax. Also, we have today published a consultation on a bank levy, which will raise an extra £2.5 billion in revenue from the banks.