Housing and Planning Bill (Twelfth sitting)

Debate between Maria Caulfield and Roberta Blackman-Woods

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

As I said, these are probing amendments. They are designed to elicit from the Minister exactly how the rent setting scheme will operate in practice. The important point about amendment 201 is that a new rent regime is to be set up for people living in social housing. I want to know whether the Minister thinks it would be appropriate to take some account of local circumstances and, importantly, to subject the scheme to a consultation involving the tenants who will be affected by it and seek their agreement. That is only fair. Tenants would expect, if they are to be subject to a different regime, that their voices would be heard when the scheme is being set up. That is the main purpose of amendment 201.

Amendment 202 is designed to establish whether the Minister intends future rent levels to relate only to income, using fairly arbitrary thresholds. While I am talking about thresholds, I want to correct the point made earlier by the hon. Member for Lewes. The threshold of £30,000 is not the earnings of an individual. It might be an individual, but it is based on the earnings of a household. That is critical. We are not talking about an individual income of £30,000. It could be—

[Maria Caulfield]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

If the hon. Lady will just let me finish the point, I will take her intervention. An individual income could be £15,000, which is way below the average income in all areas of the country. I am merely correcting what she said earlier about the threshold being an individual earnings level of £30,000. It is not; it is a household income level.

[Maria Caulfield]

My point was that a nurse on a starting salary earns £21,000, and it is not fair that they have to pay private market rents if they are in the private rented sector, yet in social housing, people with a household income of £30,000 are paying a subsidised rent that is much lower. We should be helping key workers such as nurses, policemen and teachers. The system is currently not fair.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

Those comments are revealing on so many levels. First, as we have already established this morning, a lot of the housing is not subsidised. If the hon. Lady is suggesting that nurses have to pay rents that are too high in the private rented sector, the problem is the level of rents in the private rented sector. It is an extraordinary view, although it is reflected in the Bill.

Housing and Planning Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Maria Caulfield and Roberta Blackman-Woods

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

The hon. Gentleman obviously was not listening to my earlier point. It is clear that no Government built enough housing, particularly social rented stock. It is important that we do not keep going down the party line: “Everything you did was bad, and everything we did was good.” As I made clear to the hon. Member for Croydon South, of the £45 billion that was raised, the Labour Government put at least £32 billion into ensuring that the remaining stock was of a sufficient quality for people to live in, which is not an unimportant or irrelevant point. After 18 years of Conservative government, the stock was in an absolutely deplorable condition and often was not fit to be occupied. Necessarily, the Labour Government concentrated on ensuring that people could actually live in the social-rented stock that was available.

[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

The hon. Lady may correct me, but during the oral evidence sessions we heard from a number of housing associations about alternative house-building models. Modular housing can be built relatively cheaply and within 13 weeks. Does she not agree that that is a feasible way of replenishing stock?

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

In the amendment, we are looking at replacement by tenure, by area and according to local housing need. The exact nature of what that housing might look like is for another discussion. Of course, we would consider all forms of building that deliver good-quality, sustainable housing for the future. Personally, I do not have a problem with the hon. Lady’s suggestion.

The point I was making to the hon. Member for Peterborough and other Committee members is that we have to look at the total reduction in stock. If we are looking at 5.1 million homes for rent through local authorities in 1980 and only 1.7 million in 2014, we need no other information to tell us that we have a shortage of social homes for rent. The shortage is the result of a lack of replacement homes through the right to buy policy over many years, but it is worth emphasising again that the coalition’s record on that was pretty abysmal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, but I say to him that it is best made to his own Minister, not simply to the Opposition.

We know that under the so-called voluntary agreement, housing associations have committed to stock replacement. It is precisely because of that commitment that we seek to put more requirements about the replacement of housing in the Bill. As I said, amendment 148 seeks to ensure that the grant is paid only when there is a replacement for a home sold and when it is of the same tenure and located in the same area. In some areas, however, if a three-bedroom home for rent has been sold, the local authority and housing association may want to discuss whether it is replaced by a three-bedroom home for rent or a bungalow; they may have a particularly acute need locally for bungalows, or it could be the reverse. The amendment has been framed to ensure that the social housing stock is replaced and that it is in the same area, but that the exact nature of the stock is determined according to local housing need as assessed by the local authority, which is important if local housing need is to be addressed. I am sure that the entire Committee would want that to happen.

Without an amendment such as amendment 148 and without greater clarity from the Minister, we could easily find associations in a situation, despite everyone’s best intentions—we do know that replacement has not been on a one-for-one basis previously—where replacements could happen in areas that do not have the greatest need. For example, it might be cheaper to provide replacement homes in a different area. It is a particular concern that the level of generality for replacements means that some areas could suffer more than others. That point has been made and the National Housing Federation has agreed that

“housing associations will retain the sales receipt to enable them to reinvest in the delivery of new homes”

and will be able to

“use the sales proceeds to deliver new supply”,

but that they must have the flexibility

“to replace rented homes with other tenures such as shared ownership.”

We are hearing from housing associations on what they are likely to do under the right-to-buy provisions that they will not necessarily replace in the same tenure or in the same area because the commitment to replace homes is a national one. That could have a huge impact on areas with an acute housing need, which probably have high building costs due to a lack of land. When the Minister responds, he will need to reassure the Opposition that there will be replacement, particularly in areas of acute housing need.

As I pointed out earlier, homes for social rent and new starts for such homes are at an all-time low. Last year, it was only 10,000 properties. That is a drop in the ocean of need and meets hardly any of the demand for social rented properties. I am sure that most of our constituencies have waiting lists for council housing that are at least at that level— in just one constituency. There is huge unmet demand for socially rented homes, which is why we are unclear as to why the Government are not more concerned about ensuring that the homes sold through right to buy are replaced within in the same tenure. Otherwise, we will simply see further depletion of affordable homes for rent right across the country. Shelter has estimated that around another 113,000 homes could be lost immediately through the provisions in the Bill, so it is incumbent on the Committee to ensure like-for-like replacement.

Given the high costs of building in London, it is particularly important that we do not see social homes for rent being lost there and replaced elsewhere in the country. That might be good for the areas that get the replacements—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Lewes is shaking her head, so perhaps she would like to explain to all those in London why people there should not have access to social housing for rent. The point we are making is that there is a need for social homes to rent throughout the country, but also a need for more social homes for rent in London. A great many of the councils and boroughs in London that gave evidence to the Committee were at pains to stress the need for replacements in London of the same tenure and in the same area, to ensure that they can meet local housing need.

[Maria Caulfield]

The hon. Lady says that I am shaking my head, and I am, because she easily dismisses the modular housing that would give people in London easy, cheap, affordable housing of the same tenure, built to code for sustainable homes, or lifetime homes standards—any type of housing that a local authority would want. She dismisses that so easily, but it is an affordable solution to replacing like for like.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

The hon. Lady cannot have been listening to what I was saying, because I did not dismiss anything. Far from dismissing new forms of new build and new modular construction, I said that the debate would be a very interesting one, and one to which I would happily contribute. The point I was making was that that is without the scope of the amendment, which seeks to ensure that we have replacement housing of the same tenure that is located in the same local authority area and in accordance with assessed local housing need. Again, I point out to the hon. Lady that the amendment says nothing about the exact nature of the replacement homes that are of the same tenure.

It would be interesting to discuss how we could drive up the quality of new house building throughout the country. I want to make it very clear for the record that we are not dismissing ways in which we can improve the quality of new homes that are delivered in this country, but that is not directly relevant to the discussion of the amendment. The important point we are trying to make is that there is a lot of evidence to suggest that if a requirement is not put into the Bill to ensure that we replace the homes sold through the right to buy with social rented properties in the same area and in accordance with local housing need, this country’s social housing stock will be further reduced. That is what all the commentators are telling us and what history is telling us, so we need to see measures in the Bill to prevent that from happening. That is the socially responsible thing to do. We very much want to hear what the Minister has to say.

Housing and Planning Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Maria Caulfield and Roberta Blackman-Woods

Thursday 19th November 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that intervention, and for bringing us back to the real focus of the amendment, which is why the Government are not doing more to produce greater output in terms of housing delivery across all tenures. Most people would think that a reasonable question to ask, given the severity of the housing crisis that we face.

We must also question whether measures in the Bill are making an increase in housing units more difficult from the key sectors: local authorities and housing associations’ homes for social rent. We know, and a number of people have commented, that measures in this Bill and the Welfare Reform and Work Bill could make it more difficult for local authorities and housing associations to build homes, due to the combined impact of loss of rental income.

We are not criticising the reduction in rents; that is not the point. The point about the rent reduction is that less money will be available for local authorities and housing associations to build homes. That is simply the point that they are making. If the Government want to reduce rents—we think it a laudable objective to reduce the rents of people in social housing—it should be done in a way that does not impact negatively on the ability of housing associations and local authorities to build more homes. Unfortunately—we have seen this in some of the detailed evidence given by housing associations and local authorities—reducing rents reduces the amount of money available to them for short-term and longer-term investment in their current stock and building for the future. That does not seem to be a sensible approach.

[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

I have to disagree with the hon. Lady, because the Bill protects those on the lowest income by reducing their rent. It is asking those on the highest income to pay to stay at market rents, and that money can be used by councils or housing associations to build more housing. There is already legislation on a voluntary agreement for those who earn £60,000 a year or more. We heard in evidence sessions that housing associations are not using the powers, and the Bill will address that problem.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

We will debate pay to stay and the many, many problems with it—

Housing and Planning Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Maria Caulfield and Roberta Blackman-Woods

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

Q 200 Can I follow on from that? The G15 are quite strongly against this forced sale of council housing. Do you share the concern that the Government should not be seeking to support the right to buy through the forced sale of council housing?

David Montague: We are concerned that it will lead to the loss of affordable social rented housing in London. We would have preferred to have seen the voluntary right to buy funded through other means—means which we suggested. Given that we are where we are, we are determined to work with local authorities to protect against the loss of social housing in London.

[Maria Caulfield]

Q 201 I am interested in your opinion on the concern about matching the loss of right to buy one to one. Have you looked at other methods, other than traditional house building methods? My local authority only this year has gone down the modular housing route, which has enabled 100% affordable rented housing to be turned round that meets all building regs, along with the “Code for Sustainable Housing” and the Lifetime Homes standards, and the houses are three and four-bedroomed detached houses for low-paid workers. The cost to build each house is less than £30,000, so you could easily replace two for one, for example. Have you looked at those models?

Mark Patchitt: We have been working with housing associations in the north-west collectively to look into modular off-site and to see whether we can collectively bring the purchasing power that would make a difference. We first thought that we might be able to get discounts. That wasn’t the case, but we could help the industry with modular. Our experience to date—we have done a number of pilots—is that the actual cost of modular today is slightly more expensive than traditional. However, we are still pursuing it, because we believe that in two, three or four years’ time it will be as competitive, if not more competitive, as you see labour and material costs go up.