Conversion Practices (Prohibition) Bill

Debate between Maria Caulfield and Lloyd Russell-Moyle

2nd reading
Friday 1st March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Maria Caulfield]

As a Government we speak together, but I am just expressing my frustration on behalf of colleagues. I acknowledge that this has taken a long time, and I want to explain why. I tried to indicate earlier that we are expecting the Cass review in the coming weeks, and we aim to publish the Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny very soon after that.

Let me come to the Government’s concerns about this Bill and address some of the issues raised. We have concerns about four areas: the proposed definition of conversion practices, the inclusion of the term “suppression”, the proposed parental exemption and the territorial extent of the provisions. I will take those in turn.

First, we are concerned that the definition of conversion practices in clause 1 is simply too broad. A conversion practice is outlined as a

“course of conduct or activity”.

Even with the provisos that an act must be repeated and underpinned by a predetermined outcome in order to be in scope, that remains a very broadly drawn offence that lacks legislative clarity. The hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown has produced explicit exemptions in clause 1(2) to clarify that certain actions are out of scope, but the Government are concerned that those exemptions are insufficient and there remains a risk that some reasonable behaviour would be caught.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I do not want to delay the Minister, because we want to get on with this now. She will acknowledge that I twice presented these clauses to the Government. Twice the Government came to me and said, “We will get amendments to you within a week.” I agreed that I would accept any Government amendment. Twice the Government came back saying, “No, we don’t have any amendments yet for you because we can’t find anything that we’ve signed off.” I worry a bit about bad faith, and I hope that if we accepted the amendments that she is proposing, she would be supportive, rather than produce just another list of questions.

[Maria Caulfield]

I take on board the hon. Member’s point, but the final Bill was published only this week. I take on board his point about future amendments should the Bill get to Committee. I appreciate that he intends his Bill to be a framework into which exemptions can be built, but when creating a broad new criminal offence that could be altered in future by powers, we believe that robust protections and scrutiny must come at the beginning of the legislative process, not the end.

Secondly, the risk is further heightened by the inclusion of “suppression” within the scope of the offences under clause 1(2). For example, if a religious leader supports an individual who wants to manage their same-sex attraction in order to align with their individual religious belief, where the individual consensually seeks out religious counselling, this Bill would still criminalise that support. That is just one tiny example of what we mean.

Despite the hon. Gentleman’s best efforts to the contrary, the Bill risks creating a chilling effect on clinicians—we have heard some of those concerns today—by positioning healthcare regulation within the context of criminal law. The impact on healthcare professionals may well be the single biggest challenge within legislation in this area. That is part of the reason why we consider pre-legislative scrutiny from the breadth of medical experience available across Parliament in both Houses to be so critical. As I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn), that concern is cited by the independent Cass review, the final report of which is expected in the next few weeks.

Our third concern is about the Bill’s attempt to exempt parental behaviour in clause 1(2). The Government are clear that parents should be able to have exploratory and even challenging conversations with their children, and it would be absolutely wrong to criminalise them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Caulfield]

That is the point I am making: this is a sensitive area, where there are arguments both for and against on all sides. We absolutely believe in parents’ legitimate right and freedom to bring up their children in any way they see fit, but we have to be careful about that tipping into abuse. We have seen that happen, for example with FGM.

Our final concern is about the territorial extent of the Bill. Clause 5 says that it will apply to the entire United Kingdom, which poses issues because, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown knows, justice is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Indeed, as many Members here today will be aware, the Scottish Government are currently consulting on their own legislative approach to banning conversion practices. The requirement for the Director of Public Prosecutions to approve any prosecution is at odds with the Bill’s territorial extent, which I would say wrongly covers Scotland and Northern Ireland. The Crown Prosecution Service operates in England and Wales only, because Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own criminal justice systems, which means that the requirement to have CPS approval would not apply there. A separate provision creates equivalent requirements for the Northern Ireland equivalent of the CPS, but there is no explicit provision for its Scottish counterpart. Those are the four main areas where we have issues with the Bill.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

First, the Minister has to recognise that the Bill will be brought into force in Scotland or Northern Ireland only if there is the consent of the legislators and Ministers in those two places. Secondly, the argument she has just given is legally incorrect, because in Scotland there is already a requirement for the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service to give authorisation for private prosecutions. That is why it is not needed in the law. I would have thought that Government lawyers had told her that in the briefing. It is disappointing that they do not seem to know the law.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Maria Caulfield and Lloyd Russell-Moyle

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

We will have to go a bit faster.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)]

11. What steps she is taking to improve access to mental health services.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)]

We are improving mental health services, transforming them with an extra £2.3 billion a year. We have already seen some improvements in the delivery of those changes from giving mental health services parity of esteem with physical services.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

The Minister will know, because it covers her constituency as well, that the Sussex Partnership NHS Foundation Trust does vital work in mental health, but there simply is not the resource, and I am afraid that parroting about parity of esteem does not tackle the issues. Wait times are 190 days for children and young people in her constituency and mine. I recently spoke to a mother in Peacehaven whose son is waiting for an attention deficit hyperactivity disorder diagnosis. His performance at school is in rapid decline, but because of the wait times he is not eligible for support in school via any education, health and care plan to start to turn things around. What assurances can the Minister give my constituents, and indeed her constituents, that the wait times for mental health will come down and that resources will be given to these partnerships, rather than just empty words?

[Maria Caulfield]

The hon. Member is absolutely right: we know that in Sussex we have higher rates of mental health illness than in many other parts of the country, with a 15% increase in Sussex A&E attendances. He might not be aware of them, but multiple schemes are available in Sussex. Health in Mind is offering psychological support to those suffering stress and anxiety, which can be self-referred. We have the Sussex mental health crisis line, now open 24/7, which is accessed via the 111 service. We have mental health professionals rolling out the blue light triage service in Sussex, and we have the Brighton and Hove mental health rapid response service, open 24/7, to which anyone can refer themselves urgently. Perhaps if he looks at some of the services provided locally, he will be able to reassure his constituents.

Livestock Worrying: Sussex

Debate between Maria Caulfield and Lloyd Russell-Moyle

Tuesday 17th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

Again, I entirely agree. We need to educate, and we need to be able to enforce the requirement for dogs to be on leashes when livestock are in fields. When people do not abide by that requirement, there needs to be punishment to deter others from doing the same.

Overall, farming contributes more than £140 million to Sussex’s economy and employs 8,500 people permanently, as well as thousands of seasonal workers. Of course we want to preserve Sussex’s natural beauty, but its proximity to the tourism hubs in London and Brighton provides easy access for dog walkers as well as others who are enjoying our countryside. Farmers look after more than 62% of the Sussex countryside, and manage public footpaths that go through their land. It is vital for us to introduce measures to ensure that both livestock and dogs are safe. The end result of an attack can be the shooting of a dog if it is found in mid-attack, and we want to protect dogs in those circumstances. Owners have a responsibility to ensure that their dogs are kept safe, which is why this debate should cover dog-owners as well.

[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman kindly mentioned me. I should declare an interest, as an urban shepherd in Brighton and Hove.

Many dog owners are not aware of the damage that their dogs can do. They think that the dogs will not attack sheep. However, a dog does not have to attack a sheep physically to worry it. Chasing sheep can be enough to cause miscarriage or even death, because they are very likely to have heart attacks as well.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I totally agree with the hon. Lady. The difficulty is that, although most dog owners whom I speak to say, “My dog is perfect: he is a saint” —or “She is a beauty”—“who will do nothing to harm anyone”, the fact is that dogs are animals too. They have urges to play with other animals, and they often think that the sheep are enjoying being chased around. Their motivation is not necessarily malicious, although it may be sometimes. Dog owners need to understand the effect of letting dogs off leashes when there are livestock around.

Livestock worrying must be treated as a recordable crime. Dog owners must be given consistent information and act accordingly; farmers must report all instances, and the police must take them seriously. Livestock worrying is one of the greatest problems affecting farmers in Sussex. As we have heard, there are more than 130 cases a year, more than the number in Scotland.