NHS (Contracts and Conditions)

Maria Caulfield Excerpts

Monday 14th September 2015 Westminster Hall

[Helen Jones]

We made our policy quite clear in the last Parliament. In particular, we opposed the Government’s decision to curb 1% pay increases for NHS staff who were gaining increments. The hon. Gentleman really has to think about this: if there are fewer and fewer nurses in our hospitals—in particular, employment in the most senior grades is down by 3%—and we are spending millions on agency staff, something is going badly wrong. Hospitals are being forced to recruit nurses from abroad or spend on agency staff when we have thousands of people in this country who want to train as nurses but simply cannot get the training places that are available.

[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Helen Jones]

In a moment. I want to make a little progress and finish this point.

That is a false economy. I make no criticism of the skills of the nurses we recruit from abroad, but it—

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[Helen Jones]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for reading that out, but I referred to nurses in hospitals. The number of nurses working in hospitals has fallen under this Government, particularly in the top grades. The failure to train and recruit enough permanent staff is putting a great strain on those staff already in post, who are having to deal with agency staff all the time to make sure that they know how things work in a particular hospital or ward. That does not offer continuity of care for patients.

[Maria Caulfield]

I declare an interest as a former NHS nurse—in fact, I still work as a nurse. I do not want to be political about this, because I want progress to be made on supporting the NHS, and particularly staff, but one of the single biggest factors in demoralising nurses and leading many skilled nurses to leave the practice was the last Labour Government’s change to the skill mix. That was crucial, because we were forced to cut our budgets, particularly on the wards, and junior nurses were left in charge of wards, instead of experienced senior staff nurses and sisters—

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

Order. I remind Members that interventions should be brief.

[Maria Caulfield]

Can I just say that it is the change to the skill mix that has demoralised nurses, and that did not happen under this Government?

[Helen Jones]

I am afraid that I do not agree with the hon. Lady. What has demoralised most of the nurses I see is the cuts they have to cope with day in, day out, as well as the shortage of sometimes even basic equipment and the—

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[Helen Jones]

Yes. I thank the hon. Lady for that useful suggestion. I will do so.

People who are admitted to hospitals at the weekend are much sicker than those admitted on weekdays, because we do not have elective admissions at the weekend.

[Maria Caulfield]

Does the hon. Lady have any suggestion as to why people are sicker at the weekend? Is it perhaps because they have been unable to get hold of their GP in the evenings or on previous weekends?

[Helen Jones]

I have just said the Government should publish their research and delve deeper into the figures. [Interruption.] Look, the hon. Lady knows that people admitted at weekend are, overwhelmingly, emergencies. That is the point. Their death rates cannot be compared with death rates on weekdays, when there is elective surgery—that is a basic point, which she needs to grasp.

If the Government really believe these things are happening, they need to find out why. As I understand it, death rates are taken over 30 days, so someone can be admitted on a Sunday and die 28 days later, on a Thursday. The Government need to prove cause and effect before they can make the link between admissions at the weekend and death rates. So far, however, we have not seen that from them.

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[Paul Scully]

In his King’s Fund speech, the Secretary of State talked about working with professionals, including the British Medical Association and other organisations, throughout September. That example is why we need to keep the dialogue going. I have seen nothing substantive in speeches by Ministers to pitch them into conflict with the vast majority of NHS staff. It is about change management. Change is always difficult, but change we must do. We can achieve much more together.

[Maria Caulfield]

Does my hon. Friend agree that staff morale has been an issue for decades? I worked in the hospital in his constituency during the previous Labour Government, and what demoralises staff most is the NHS being used as a political football. Opposition Members are screaming, “We have found data!” But it is not their data; it is patients’ data and the staff’s data. We need to work together. I commend my hon. Friend for saying that we need to work together and stop using the NHS as a political football.

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[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

Thank you, Ms Vaz, for giving me the opportunity to speak in this debate. I am a passionate supporter of a seven-day-a-week national health service. That might take many formats; it is not a one-size-fits-all situation, so what works in my constituency might be different from what works in someone else’s.

I will not repeat what many of my colleagues have already said, but I think that we need an honest debate. There are difficulties to get over; my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) in particular has described them. We will have to work together and compromise on certain things, but if we do not debate the issue and find a resolution, patients will die from lack of access to good out-of-hours care. We need to tackle it. To be 16% more likely to die just because of the day of the week one is admitted to hospital is not good enough in this day and age.

However, it is not just about the impact on patients and their relatives; it is also about the impact on staff. Tribute has rightly been paid in this debate to staff, senior consultants and doctors who work long hours and come in at weekends. Many of them do so unofficially because they are dedicated, but I want to represent staff who work out of hours because it is part of their contract. I have been a nurse for more than 20 years. I have worked in the community on weekends, when patients without access to a GP have needed painkillers or an urgent dressing and it is difficult to get hold of a doctor. I have been in charge of wards on weekends and nights, when patients tend to be sicker because as medicine has progressed, patients who are well are often discharged earlier, so those left in hospital are often sicker than they would have been a decade ago.

Along with the reduced skill mix that I highlighted earlier, the pressure on nurses, healthcare assistants and other ancillary staff is huge. Two or three staff on night duty with a poorly patient who is septic might have one doctor on call handling four or five other wards, who might have 10 admissions that night to see to first. The staff will have expanded their skills so that they can cannulate the patient, take their bloods and send them off to the labs, but that is the limit of what they can do. It is hugely stressful. I know from having been in charge of a team of nurses on nights how difficult it can be.

That cannot continue. It is not good for patients—we know that their mortality and morbidity rates get worse—and it is not good for staff or for their morale. I have seen nurses in tears after a busy night shift during which we could not care for a patient the way we should have, because we had no access to senior medical advice. Yes, it is possible to phone the consultant on call and have a chat with them, but nothing beats having the advice of an expert who can interpret an X-ray or blood results and who can help junior medical staff prescribe the right antibiotics.

A great example introduced in the past couple of years is the acute oncology service, which has transformed out-of-hours care for cancer patients. As a sister in a research unit not far down the road, I know what a difference that has made to my patients. For some reason, patients tend to get really poorly at half-past 4 on a Friday afternoon, come what may. I have been so pleased with that service, which is now available up and down the country and offers trained senior nurses, doctors and a whole team of people who can assess a patient and get treatment going. For conditions such as sepsis, it is life-saving. Those with spinal cord compression can have a scan urgently and be started on steroids straight away. That is the difference between a patient being able to walk during the last six months of their life and being bed-bound.

That is out-of-hours care at its best, but of course difficulties and contentious issues will arise when renegotiating contracts. It is not just about consultants and senior staff. Proper out-of-hours care will require support services such as radiologists, radiographers and pharmacists. My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis) spoke about the perfect week; I could talk to hon. Members day in, day out about how many patients we kept in hospital over the weekend because we could not access drugs to send them home. That is not a great use of hospital resources, but more importantly that is not a great experience for patients and their relatives.

Support services make a huge difference, but my plea is that we do not use the debate as an opportunity to score political goals. We have to work together. If we do not work cross-party on this, we will be here in 10 years’ time. Patients will lose out and their families will lose loved ones if we do not make a difference. It will not be easy. Nobody will be happy about working different hours. We are not asking people to work more than 40 hours a week; we are just asking people to work differently. We are not even just talking about how we work, but about a systems change in the culture of the NHS, so that the patient at half-past 4 on a Friday afternoon does not think, “What lies ahead for me this weekend?” I urge hon. Members on both sides of the House to be as constructive as possible.

[Helen Jones]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady; she has been most generous in giving way. She says that she is not expecting NHS staff to work more than 40 hours a week; did she mean to say that? Many of them already work more than 40 hours a week. Is it now Government policy that no one in the NHS should work more than 40 hours a week?

[Maria Caulfield]

The hon. Lady is being disingenuous.

[Helen Jones]

Answer the question.

[Maria Caulfield]

Of course. I have worked more than 40 hours a week; many staff do. We are not asking staff to work more hours—we have been very clear—but we are asking staff to work differently. I do not think that there is anything wrong with that if it provides a better service for the patient and takes the pressure off those front-line staff who are without radiology support, laboratory support and senior cover support. I ask the hon. Lady to support the measures and work with us, so that we can work with healthcare professionals to achieve that. They need senior support out of hours, because they need someone to interpret test results, make decisions to discharge a patient and break bad news when results are not good, and they need senior expertise to refer to others to move the process forward. My plea is that is we all work together.

I welcome the debate this afternoon. It is good to have it. I am pleased that healthcare professionals flag up issues, because I do not want policies to be steamrollered in, as they have been in the past, and for us to sit here 10 years later reaping the results. I welcome the seven-day-a-week initiative and the move to change the culture and the system, so that ultimately patients see improvement in patient care.

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[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

I declare an interest: I am a doctor and member of the British Medical Association, and I still work in the hospital.

We are talking about data showing that people admitted at the weekend are more likely to die within 30 days than those admitted on weekdays. It is important to listen to what Bruce Keogh said, which is that it would be misleading to assume that all of those deaths could be prevented. We use terms as if the deaths were avoidable or talk about people “dying unnecessarily”, but we do not know. We must understand what the data show. There is nothing wrong with the data and nothing that can ever be bigger, because the NHS is the biggest single health service in the world. Professor Freemantle has done the work twice and the pattern is there, but it is not people dying at the weekend; it is important to realise that his data show the reverse. They show fewer people dying on a Saturday or Sunday then dying on a Wednesday. What is higher is the number of people who are admitted, and we need to understand that. As the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) said, they are sicker people. On a Saturday, there are 25% more people in the most ill category and on a Sunday there are 35% more people in that category.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan in the Chair]

It was said that there was an increased number of deaths among elective patients admitted on a Sunday, and people wondered why that was. As a surgeon with a Monday list, I can say that the norm now is that patients come in on the morning of surgery. So, for me to get permission for someone to come in on a Sunday, let alone a Saturday, means that that person has complex co-morbidity. If we are simply looking at additional populations, we cannot simply use a broad sweep and assume that all of this can be changed, because it cannot be; these people are inherently more ill, whether they are elective patients or emergency patients. Those data are absolutely there and they remain when we re-analyse them or try to balance them, so this issue needs to be tackled.

There are a few myths going around, including the idea that the opt-out clause is a major barrier. The opt-out clause that was cited was for routine work. Consultants do not get to opt out of emergency work at night or at weekends if they work in an acute service. If a consultant works in a service where acute provision is at all relevant, that acute provision is part of what they do and they do not get to opt out of it. Nine out of 10 consultants work out of hours and the other 10% are engaged in specialties for which there is not an acute service.

There has been talk about getting people to work for only 40 hours. My colleagues who are still up the road holding it together work for 48 hours and they simply cannot work more than that because it is illegal under the European working time directive to do so. Most consultants within the acute system work 48 hours a week, and I am sure that those of us who are married to them or simply aware of them will be well aware of that fact; indeed, we will have been told that in no uncertain terms in the last few months.

It is important that we focus what we do on trying to save the lives of those among those 11,000 people who can be saved. When I was a junior doctor, I was aware that getting scans out of hours or at weekends was very difficult, and so patients hit “pause” for a few days. I do not think there is that much difference in services; I find it hard to believe that there is. In Scotland, the situation has been changing for five or 10 years, not by threatening or cajoling people but simply by evolving. Our consultant radiologists cover the entire weekend; our stroke patients get CTs; and our heart attack patients go straight to get angiography, will get an angioplasty there and then, and will go home after breakfast the next morning. So this idea that we have big tracts of those in medicine sitting home watching “Coronation Street” is not true.

The NHS will be cash-strapped; it has to save £22 billion per year in the next five years, which is a big challenge. So now is not the time to say, “We can provide GP services eight to eight, seven days a week.” The pilots have not been successful. The uptake was 50% for Saturday and 12% for Sunday, and some of those pilots reported that there was great difficulty in covering the out-of-hours GP service, which people who feel unwell should be going to, because what was being talked about was totally routine.

Both in hospital and in primary care, we need to focus our attention on improving the access for people who feel unwell, which includes people being able to access a GP and not having to go to A&E with something that means they do not need to be there. That is recognised within the profession, but it is important for people to work together towards that aim rather than pulling out the pin and throwing a grenade at somebody, which is obviously how the profession regards what has happened during the summer. Like many people in Westminster Hall today, I was inundated by messages from colleagues, including from doctors south of the border who I do not know at all. They were very angry at the statement on 16 July that senior doctors do not work outside 9 to 5, which is patently not true.

We need to look at what we should do about these figures. One of the groups that shows the effect of this situation very strikingly is stroke patients. However, research by Bray looked at 103 stroke units, including units where there was seven-day consultant review through the day, and compared them. There was absolutely no difference between that seven-day service and units where there was a routine ward round and no ward rounds at the weekend. What made a significant difference was the ratio of fully trained registered nurses to patients. When that ratio was halved, so that there were twice as many nurses, the mortality was reduced by a third. So, before we go rushing into policy, even if we are working cross-party it is important to understand the data sufficiently to answer the question, “Do we need more doctors or do we actually need more nurses?” That is a pretty important question to answer before any moves are made.

It is also important to focus on the emergency side. People say, “Well, Tesco is open 24/7”. Actually, it is not open 24/7 totally. People will not find the fishmonger 24/7; the baker will not be making fresh bread; and there will not a butcher producing fresh cuts of meat. It will be the basic system that is open 24/7, so let us not confuse matters. And frankly, we can generate a person to work in Tesco, stacking shelves or operating the till, an awful lot quicker than we can create a GP, which will take 10 years because there are five years of medical school and then five years of training, or a consultant, which requires five years of medical school and—in my time—about 15 or 16 years of training.

There is no quick fix for this situation and we cannot afford to take on extra staff, but actually the money would be the easiest bit because we do not have the extra staff. The Government talk about 5,000 extra GPs and yet the British Medical Association shows that we will lose 10,000 GPs in the next five years. That means that we would need 15,000 GPs, and we simply cannot produce that number. So we need to ensure that we hang on to all the doctors we have, including the junior doctors, because that partly comes down to what those junior doctors see, including how they see their seniors working and what they think of that as a career. I say that because junior doctors have always gone to places such as Australia but they used to come back; now they are not coming back.

This whole matter could have been handled better, but the issue is working with people. The Scottish Government are also working towards seven-day cover, but they have been very clear that what they are talking about—the priority within that system—is seven-day cover for people who are ill. That means expanding the out-of-hours service for GPs and expanding what is available to us as senior doctors inside hospitals. That is the route that must be followed, and not the use of a grenade.

After the Francis report and the increase in the number of nurses being taken on to try to get the figures that are sought, what we had at the beginning of the summer was trusts that are struggling being told, “Cut back. Don’t use agencies. Don’t replace people unless they’re absolutely crucial.” We need to give serious thought about whether it is actually more nurses that we need before we rush in to bring in a whole lot—

[Maria Caulfield]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s thoughts and agree with a lot of what she has said. On the issue of nurses, does she agree that it is not just the number of nurses that matters but the skills mix? Because of budget constraints, what has happened over the past two decades is that the skill of senior nurses has been cut back, and those senior nurses are now often not on duty at nights and weekends, which has made a crucial difference.

[Dr Whitford]

I made the point that Bray’s paper talked about registered nurses—so, degree nurses—and that reflects the skill mix.

We need to know what the actual problem is rather than just running in and throwing ideas and policies around. Attacking staff who work very hard and for really long hours is not very fruitful. We need NHS staff to believe in the political decisions, the guidance and the direction being taken in the future, so I simply suggest that everyone in this House look at the way forward.