Apprenticeships (Alternative English Completion Conditions) Regulations 2012

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, I too would like to thank the Minister for her explanation of the statutory instrument and I apologise for arriving late. The Committee moved on more quickly than I had anticipated.

I have two questions. First, am I right in thinking that these alternative regulations apply to relatively few young people? Given that this is an Olympic year, perhaps the numbers under Schedule 3 are rather greater than they might otherwise be, but the numbers under Schedule 1 are relatively small. On the issue of those made redundant, it will be impossible to tell because we do not know who might be made redundant. However, the total number of young people to whom these instruments might apply is relatively small.

The other thing to note, of course, is that these regulations are the result of an amendment that was carried when we discussed the Bill. At that point, we discussed at some length what would happen to those who were made redundant, and this has been put in specifically to make sure that there is a way forward for those who have more or less completed their apprenticeships. I am very pleased to see that. Perhaps the Minister could respond on the relative numbers in relation to the total number of apprenticeships.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for her explanation. I make no apologies for repeating a number of questions and concerns expressed by my honourable friend in the other place, Mr Gordon Marsden, as we—the royal “we”—are still awaiting written responses from the Minister.

On the question of quality, I was looking at the report of the Eighth Delegated Legislation Committee and read through the Minister’s contribution. At one point, he said:

“There are those who feel that I have gone too far on quality”.—[Official Report, Commons, Eighth Delegated Legislation Committee, 17/4/12; col. 3.]

I do not think that we have gone too far on quality, even allowing for a certain amount of his ministerial flamboyance, as I would describe it, in a nice way. I do not question his integrity or commitment on this issue but I do think there is no room for complacency

I listened carefully to what the noble Baroness said in her opening statement, where she described a fairly traditional approach to an apprenticeship. I do not know if noble Lords had the opportunity to watch a recent “Panorama” programme on apprenticeships which showed, unfortunately, a significant amount of exploitation of young people, who were led to believe that they were going to get training from this particular subcontractor. There was little or no training whatever. It was in no way the kind of quality we should expect.

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[Baroness Wilcox]

My Lords, I thank everyone for taking part and asking some interesting and important questions. It is not necessarily the number of people who are in the Room but the questions that they ask, as I have discovered before in the Moses Room. I am always very careful when I see that there not many people here. It is usually the ones who really know what they are talking about who are.

I thank my noble friend Lady Byford for her question and for noting that I come from the fishing industry and am therefore interested. In opposition she led on Defra, so she knows the subject very well. Only sea fishing is covered by the maritime occupations in these regulations, namely share fisherfolk, crew and deck hands. The numbers are small. There were 30 apprenticeships in 2010-11. There has been no demand to develop other types of fishing apprenticeship. Officials will explore the potential to develop this sector further with the National Apprenticeship Service and the sector skills councils.

When I was in the industry I first knew about share fishing when my grandmother left me my little fleet of fishing boats. The captains of the boats said to me, “We’ll be share fishing, then”. I said, “Oh, right”. That meant that I got half of whatever catch came up to pay for the boat, the oil and everything else that was needed, while the other half went to them. It did not work terribly well so I think that what share fishing means has changed nowadays, but that is how it was explained.

It is sad that there is very little demand for apprenticeships in fishing now. I am delighted to see that the National Apprenticeship Service will explore this, particularly since I am involved with the National Lobster Hatchery in Cornwall. There are other ways of being in the fishing industry, along the lines of research into what we used to call fish farming but is now carried out wild at sea. Certainly, in the lobster hatchery it is being done as a scientific project. That area has moved to what look like scientific apprenticeships but are about the fishing industry, which may explain why we do not have more figures than that. I will look into that for my own information and see if we can find a better answer in the future.

My noble friend Lady Byford then talked about the fishing transfer. As she suggested, a fishing apprenticeship would take place over a longer period, as required to complete the training. Six months applies only to redundancy. Those made redundant can transfer their apprenticeship to another employer. However, although a fishing apprenticeship is about going to sea and fishing, in my experience apprentices also spend time on the quay, learning how to look after their nets, selling their catch and learning how to grade their catch. It is not just about days at sea and seamanship but their workmanship with the fish that they catch and the things that they have to use. I hope that that is helpful; it certainly gave me the opportunity to get an answer as well.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, asked about the numbers affected by redundancy. I am told that we do not collect data on this. Surveys tell us that less than 5 per cent of the total number of apprenticeship starts finish in that way. However, we are considering what measures to put in place to collect these data. I thank the noble Baroness for that question.

I come now to the noble Lord, Lord Young. I have a note here from an expert whom I know the noble Lord recalls from his days as a Minister, which says, “A written and, I expect, flamboyant response from John Hayes will follow. However, I will attempt to address some of your questions now”.

As to the “Panorama” programme, my honourable friend the Minister for Apprenticeships has commissioned a detailed investigation into the cases identified by “Panorama” and the National Apprenticeship Service will report in the coming weeks on its findings. We are committed to rooting out and eradicating poor quality wherever it is identified, continuing the work that the noble Lord, Lord Young, and his people did before.

As to the monitoring and review of these regulations, the National Apprenticeship Service works in partnership with sector skills councils and other sector bodies and keeps the need for exemptions under review. The regulations will be formally reviewed every 12 months.

We considered the World Championships with DCMS, but the thinking at the moment is that to include not formally recognised sports would be too open-ended. On balance, we have decided to restrict it to only Olympic, Paralympic and Commonwealth sports. I am sure that if the noble Lord, Lord Young, were to pursue this matter we would no doubt look at it again, if provoked.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

All I was trying to point out is that this year is a good example because the World Championships were definitely a preparatory stage for the Olympics. Indeed, selection for the Olympics often depended on a person’s performance in the World Championships.

All I am making a plea for—I am not expecting this to be a negotiating session and for the Minister to say, “Yes, that is perfectly okay”, because I understand that there will be cost implications—is that it should be recognised that the Olympics come every four years, people prepare for them and that ought to be taken into account. For these sporting excellence apprenticeships, it depends how the phrase about working towards competing in the Olympics is interpreted. Perhaps the Minister will take that aspect away.

It is nice to see a wise adviser, who I remember from my days, still actively assisting the Minister.

[Baroness Wilcox]

I am sure that he has noted that.

I thank everyone for the time they have given and the contributions they have made. If I have missed anything, obviously they will have picked it up and we will take it back. There is clearly consensus on the underlying principle that apprentices must be employed. These regulations do not undermine that principle but, rather, they acknowledge that there are only a limited number of circumstances where we will accept that apprentices are not employed in order to complete their apprenticeships. Setting out those circumstances clearly in these regulations can serve only to ensure that the vast majority of apprentices will benefit from employed status and will help stamp out the ambiguity that has been a feature of the programme in the past. I commend the regulations to the Committee.